Motorhead-47

Facts are facts and fiction is just that. It's not about disrespect, it's about laying out the facts. If the guy is flat wrong and posts inaccurate information, I'm going to call him out on it. It's obvious he has a bias for a particular setup. Plain and simple.

dgoldenz

^This. Spinmonster knows his stuff....and there are quite a few 500+RWHP cam-only LS3's on this forum and I'm sure many more nationwide. Most people consider "cam-only" to be full bolt-ons without forced induction (i.e. headers/cam/intake/tune).

I have never seen big (i.e. 560-600) RWHP numbers from the Edelbrock kit, but I have seen many people with 580-600RWHP with just a centri blower.

KP08

Motorhead,

Are you having a week or is it just a day ?

I can appreciate anyone expressing their opinions on the forum, and you happen to be one of the members I like reading from. Like you, Spin (who I have never met or spoken with) obviously has a great deal of knowledge and experience. There have been other posts where people disagreed with each other, but I have yet to see it done with quite the emotion you demonstrate.

I think anyone reading this thread from the beginning would agree your tone has been less than respectful and it didn't just start with Spin.

I'm enjoying the thread for the technical information I want to continue finding it a good read. I also want to hear your opinion, but please do what you can to improve the tone. I would appreciate it as I'm sure others would.

Motorhead-47

The point he was attempting to make was that for $2k you could get what a supercharger offered for $6k. The specific quote from the post in question was...

"when that power level on an LS3 comes from a very docile 230 cam install at 2000 bucks."

The fact is you don't get headers/cam/intake/tune for $2000.00

cthusker

First off Edlebrock leaves some HP on the table with their stock tune which is conservative at best. There is no canned tune I know of for a centri? The E-Force is a new system and hasn't begun to be tweaked for max HP gains from those that desire it.

I think most people consider a cam a cam..... while a cam /headers / intake and tune are exactly what they are. There is no way you are going to pick up 140 to 150 HP with just a cam! Don't know of any shop offering those other items FREE and certainly not installed for 2 grand! I simply do not believe you can make 500 rwhp on a LS3 with nothing but a cam.... not even close! As for good street manners with a cam that makes some big hp I haven't seen it. All depends what you consider good street manners and what you will put up with!

I can also put my car boosted car BACK to stock in a day! Try doing that with the internal mods! There are also LOTS of OP's that DO NOT like running headers for lots of reason.... I can also recoup at least 50% of original purchase price selling my SC separately which I doubt will happen with used headers or cams. There is NO ONE correct method to extract more hp and exactly why there are many good approaches..

Bottom line both approaches offer different things and both work well when properly installed.

Motorhead-47

The LS3 kit was released in March and Redline posted this up just a couple of weeks later... 633/575

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-f...633-575-a.html

QuikZilver

Owning a 418 LS3 powered 08 Corvette, I have to say, there is no replacement for displacement. I am running a different brand stroker with long tube headers, factory NPP exhaust, large cam, factory heads and intake and a 3600 stall converter. Actual RWHP, I am not sure what I have, as the shop's dyno they used when it was installed shut down at 140mph...which my 08 was at 4,000 rpm in 4th gear. I need to get it back to the shop to be retuned, now that they have a better dyno. Anyway, my 08 runs 10.9 in the quarter in cool weather, 11.0 in hot weather. I went with steel top rings, so if down the road I want forced induction, I can just bolt it on. Now, I lucked out with my upgrade, as I had hydrolocked the motor, so with the insurance money, I was able to upgrade the short block.

Motorhead-47

A perfect example of the right time to go forged! If you already have to pull the motor for work it makes perfect sense to go forged and go big.

JayplaySS2

Man you must be on Edlebrocks payroll-

On behalf of Spins statement, my last 08 LS3 with Spins cam 230/234 made 485rwhp on a load bearing dyno on the 3rd pull alone. His 230 does drive like stock with very little lope at idle so if ANYBODY is only looking for 500rwhp with an LS3, Spins cam will deliver and it will drive 99% of what it did stock. He is 100% accurate, as usual.

I know you're pointing out other bolt ons so my exact list was

Airaid
Home ported TB
Comp springs
TSP headers
UD pulley
Spin cam

Since many of us do our own work, this was less than $2500 for me-

You should really help Edlebrock and put together a fast list between Centri's and Edlebrock's with et and traps- That will tell a true picture instead of everyone barking at each other

I personally think the E will have marginal traps-

SpinMonster

For starters, a T-trim --A&A kit is 5100 most of the time with a Si head unit. ECS sees 770rwhp with meth injection (350 dollar mod)using their smaller kit. The avertised power on you favorites/c is measured at the flywheel at 599HP. So yes 100HP is a fair conservative assessment.

300K is definitely what you would get from a fully balanced forged rotating assumbly. My cousin's trans Am is at 177K w/100 shot so I'll keep you posted.

Here is a link to one car that used my 230/234....cam only making 501rwhp:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...ivability.html

To date 11 cars I've used it in got between 493 and 504rwhp. With a trap speed of 130mph. I assume you are referring to the mods such as headers and such to get to 500rwhp. Most people with the E-force do this too. Even at 550rwhp, an E-force will not outperform a good n/a build.

I dont get your reluctance to resist admitting that the centri kits better performance over an E-force on all fronts. Looks is what you got it for. Low end TQ is not usable when a centri makes more than can be used. I run almost no timng down low and in the midband to control wheel spin.

Anyway a 416, the thread's point, will hit a 9 sec pass if set up properly. Strokers raely have bad driveability with even the most aggrssive cams and if you claim otherwise, its obvious that you havent been in a car running a stroked LS3.

I will refrain from insults like asking what the other is smoking because I dont need to do that to get the point across nor is it why I post. I know you are taking this position because you you feel like you're being attacked and it wasnt my intention to insult. I am simply pointing out to those on the fence, that a stroker would be a better choice as 99blancoSS is offering. Its based on performance and not looks. A 416 installed would look bone stock and if you use the stock Z06 cam, it would pass for stock with a dealer mechanic driving it.

Im installing another E-force next month. My info is based on first hand experience will all the mods covered in my posts, from strokers to the E-force to cams to centris.

cell6ida

99BLANCOSS

What's the price for a LS2 stroker? I don't know much about strokers, but I already have after market ETP heads, will those need to be changed or does the stroker price not include new/different heads?

Thanks!

SpinMonster

Oh, I see your point and its valid. I didnt think of it because most people start with those things and get the S/C or a cam after them. I doubt many people do the S/C without them. 2000 for just a cam swap would not generate 500rwhp. For the record, an air cleaner assembly, headers and a cam will hit near it. So I will revise it to be a full parts list to make 500rwhp with a LS3 as....

Cam: 389
Springs: 325 (patriot)
Headers: 1550
Cold air Intake: 400

Thats a total of about 2650. I've seen 500rwhp without ported intake, TB, or UD pulley.

Any install needs a full tune and that includes the Edlebrock. The canned tune is dangerous and I have scans to prove that. You cant have a tune safe for winter alaska, 91 octane California at sea level, and south texas at the same time. It may be the case that such a tune watered down with not so much as an air cleaner swap to be passable but if you have even one mod it needs a real tune. 8psi at 2500rpm on 91 octane with high IATs and a canned tune is not safe; in fact its stupid. I have scanned to see timing being pulled which on an FI car will not be safe. LS3s that have run rich for some time with carbon deposits/hot spots are not safe with such a tune.

Again, its not a personal attack. If youre happy with it fine. I post to tell people the 416 is a better choice at 600rwhp and under from FI. I can vouch for Blanco/HKE's reputation. I dont always agree with him but this product is a better choice.

SpinMonster

A cam, headers, and S/C to hit 633rwhp? Post up the IATs scans if you have them.

Here is ECS' base kit with the 1500 head unit (5200 when on sale):
Note: its a stock cam on an automatic and check out the TQ. With IATs lower by 40 degrees.........and room to grow. This same kit will make 770 on a forged lower end and 600rwtq at 3k rpms.

AND ITS AN LS2. The same car if it was an M6 would have 550rwtq at 3k. Any takers on the E-force thinking the low end TQ is better, keep in mind the ECS kit needs only 4psi at 3k to do that and the IATs with meth are at or lower than ambient.

If you like the way it looks having big plastic wings off the sides of an already heat soaked unit because it makes you feel like you got a budget ZR1 then youre happy and thats all that matters. If you want the higher performing mod that doesnt create silly heat get a 416 or centri kit. All make 500rwtq at 3000rpms to fry any street tire.

Motorhead-47

I'll do my best to be slightly more reserved with this reply but I need to correct your statement that the Edelbrock calibration is "dangerous".

You do realize that every single car GM, Ford, Dodge, etc. produced uses a “canned tune” right? It does not matter whether you are in Alaska or Mexico or Colorado for that matter. The calibrations have 1000’s of variables that are fully capable of adapting to the conditions the car is exposed to. The application specific calibrations developed by Edelbrock for the E-Force supercharger are 100% safe when used with the configuration the tune was developed for. If you change the car’s configuration such as adding headers or a cam, you need to change the calibration…standard practice for any application. When the car is not in power enrichment mode it will set up to run a 14.68 to 1 AFR. There is no risk of carbon buildup at this AFR. At 5,000 rpm the Edelbrock calibration as-shipped drives the car to an 11.0 to 1 AFR in PE mode…slightly richer than the 11.5 that is considered to be the sweet spot for LS power. As a point of comparison, the ZR1 (similar EATON TVS2300 based supercharger) commands a richer 10.73 to 1 AFR at 5,000rpm. The Edelbrock Inlet Air Temp (IAT) Spark Advance Correction table is properly calibrated for the configuration and pulls timing when it reaches levels determined by calibration experts to warrant a reduction in timing. You should take a look at the ZR1 IAT table for comparison. The Edelbrock IAT table is more conservative than the ZR1.

A minor IAT gripe...The Edelbrock does not ship with a cold air intake and it should have. There are a couple of simple mods that make a huge improvement in the car's ability to keep IATs well below the point where it starts to pull timing.

I have spent dozens of hours scanning, logging and tuning the E-Force on my car. If I had anything negative to say about the original calibration I'd comment on the fact that there is power left on the table in both the final AFR and Spark Advance tables. That "power on the table" does not justify a $500.00 dyno tune IMHO.

Motorhead-47

You claimed in an earlier post that you had already installed an Edelbrock supercharger. If that were true, you would know those coil covers are cast aluminum....not plastic.

janstubbs

So what did that upgrade cost?

janstubbs

Which cold air intake would work with the Edelbrock SC to solve this problem?

099blancoss

Hi, yes the 416 I offered here was with head work being done as well but those ETP's are all set so your one step ahead of the game.
Your looking at $5250 with Morel lifters, HKE pushrods, Melling HV OP, double roller timing set, custom HKE cam and you sending us all your covers and oil pan and we'll send you back the assembled long block

jcase10

I was kinda wondering that myself.

099blancoss

Can we keep on focus please Discussing the merits of one or the other is good and the whole purpose of the thread but if we focus on each other and nit pic then it defeats the ability to have a good technical discussion. I can respect a persons choice one way or the other, I happen to feel we are offering more for the money in this case. ECS, AA and others have options for less that I can't compete with for an engine build and aren't trying to. FI on a stock sb is a different discussion and I am very/ultra conservative on the subject. Others (most) are not and I respect their decisions.