NOSLO6

Spin,

What's the word on pump reliability? Meth is notoriously hard on non-super-high-dollar pumps and pump failure would = knock city in the best case.

-S.

NemesisC5

George, I read or heard somewhere that having meth or other flammable liquid reservoir in engine bay is not allowed at many roadcourses???

If this is allowable, I'd consider this mod for my C5Z in the Texas heat.

YLOFEVR

Spin--Thanx for the info. I had a feeling that ambient temps would not alter the benefit of Meth, but I'm happy that you confirmed it.

As to the fenders already painted, you may want to contact Corvette Recyclers in Utah who are Forum vendors (801) 447 4700

oldmansan

The offset wouldn't be right. I'm sure Spin has different wheels in mind.

San

SpinMonster

Hi George,

I dont really understand the question.

Meth injection is north of 110 octane and most places state its a 116 octane. 100 octane is a step down and it wouldnt give you the cooler IATs from the spray injected into the intake.

Would I add meth injection to 93 octane? Thats what this thread was about. What did I miss?

With the amount being sprayed, it will last the whole day on a single tank. When it gets low the DIC will read low WW fluid.....exactly what it is. You can bring two gallons of WW fluid or whatever you use as the meth.

Doug at ECS says he dynos more with 100% meth but when you look at the gains the percentage drop from the 60 or 70hp you pick up is probably 50-55 with 50/50 or WW fluid. I tend to agree with Doug's results so I think 100% makes more power. 50/50 makes 75-80% and 40% WW fluid would likely make slightly less than 50/50 at about 70%.

SpinMonster

Alky control claims they never had a pump failure. The pump is as reliable as any other pump would be. What happens if the main fuel pump overheats from low fuel levels or the sock is clogged? What happens if a fuel injector fails or the knock sensors fail to detech knock?

There are some failsafes built into the system.

First, the system has an LED that lights to tell you if the system is firing. There is a test button to test the pump before anything serious is done with the car.

Also, as I stated in the OP, it is recomended that you use an IAT located downstream of the nozzle. When it sprays, it lowers the IAT and this then consults the IAT vs spark advance table. The table pulls timing in relation to the outside temps which drop when meth is sprayed. In this set-up if the meth doesnt spray, the IAT's dont fall and it pulls out some timing. In this table you see how after the ambien temps hit 86 degrees, the car starts pulling timing. When meth sprays it lowers the temps and the car wont pull the timing. If the car hits 104 degrees, its pulling up to 6 degrees and thats about 20HP right there. This wouldnt be pulled if the car was spraying and the IAT's were reading 85:


The knock sensors will pull timing in a knock event and to get 15-20HP you need 4-5 degrees. The car can pull up to 15.

There are also two outputs that can be connected to various relays and such. On my car i made it so the neg output is required to fire to activate a nitrous shot.

Lastly, some of the gains from using MEth are seen without altering the tune. The car's existing safe tune will benefit in hot envirnments because it will lower IAT's and this is good for power in the same way a car makes more HP on cold days. Part is that cold air is more dense and part is that the car wont be pulling timing on a 100 degree day if it reads 70degrees while meth is being shot. This is power gained with your car's present stock tune. If the system fails the car runs the way it does before the system went in.

I didnt retune for meth yet on my FI car. I note a serious gain with no added timing and with it running pig rich.

If I had to guess, I'd say it will gain 20rwhp without being tuned for it on a car running in very hot climates. Zero risk for you Texas guys. I'd be all over this. I think a Texas car on 100 degree days will make 30rwhp with the meth system adding 3 degrees timing and leaning out the fuel mix back to 13:1 with the system spraying. Same deal in NY with 90% humidity and 97 degrees outside plus its great piston protection.

I hope this helps.

SpinMonster

All of the cars on that road course are running the course with windsheild wiper fluid in the existing tank which is what corvettes use as the meth tank. So just use WW fluid as your meth. WW fluid will work with 80% percent of the gain of 100% meth so dont change it. Use the WW tank with the same fluid it came from the factory filled with. That is meth and it will work just fine. By the way, the fluid we use as WW fluid is flamable so they are full o crap. Anyway, thats what you use. If not, water injection is 1/2 of the benefot and adds to octane rating too. Thats not flamable.

For those that want the extra 3HP use 50/50 or 5hp more with 100%.

With the amount being sprayed, it will last the whole day on a single tank. When it gets low the DIC will read low WW fluid.....exactly what it is.

WW fluid is legit meth for the system. Using water injection or 50/50 mix wont extend the fuel system any so that benefit is lost but how many N/A cars are over 600rwhp? It would apply only to cars looking to make the most from N/A fuel system requirements. If you needed more than the stock system can supply you can beef it up in other ways such as using ECS' new base parallel fuel system with its 650+rwhp pump or if you like to punish yourself you can upgrade to the Z06 intank fuel pump. I added the parallel fuel system which can be triggered by rpm for N/A cars ( it uses a hobbs switch on Fi cars to activate under boost. On my gauge pillar, its the yellow LED next to my wideband that tells me when the fuel system is adding the output from the second pump.

SpinMonster

A great read on the effects/benfits:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

Things I didnt know:

Methanol cools way better than water. Methanol only cars (use of meth as the fuel) doenst need an intercooler on FI engines and some drage cars running it dont even need a radiator.

It states that 50/50 mixes of water/meth arent flamable but when I read a WW gallon bottle it said it was flamable. Is WW fluid more than 50% meth?

The cooling effect come from the water/meth absorbing the heat instead of the cylinder walls.

Water injection increases dynamic compression while increasing octane rating of the fuel.

Dan Wendling

I see that Alcohol Injection Systems also has a controller.



Anyone with experience using this other controller?

From the description below it uses MAP sensing via an air pressure line not electrical MAP output as the primary sense. But it has an additional input for electrical connection to other sensors. Sounds fairly advanced but I have no idea how to take advantage of it, nor what the benefit would be to the progressive 2D mapping of spray. Looking for those that know to comment.

One more question:

In Spins latest post he mentions locating the IAT downstream of the meth spray nozzle, but spraying into the MAF is a no no. So in a stock intake system the MAF and IAT are the same unit so what do you do? In my case I have a Killer Bee intake but this uses the stock MAF/IAT sensor so I have the same issue as the stock intake, where do I mount the new IAT?

Wicked Weasel

I think what George is asking

His car is set to run 93 octane on the street, but when pushing it on the track (road race not 1/4 mile) he is required to run 100 octane (this is what is available at the track) as a safety measure.

If instead of worrying about buying 100 octane which some track notoriously run out of or dont have if he could instead put a meth system in would that be a good substitute.

A few questions for you Spin for RR application (if you are not sure that is fine I am just trying to gain knowledge):

My RR car runs between 4800 - 6800 for 40 min clips. Is there enough in the WW to cover that time?

RR cars are shifting up and down but still holding rpms. As an example I might be at 6000 rpms and slowing down for a turn so I slam on the brakes, rev match and enter the turn at a slower speed but the same rpms (6K). Can the system handle that? There cannot be any delay with the meth because we know what the consequences could be.

So my 2 questions are:

1. How much will I be using on a RR course.
2. Is there any delay between when I need meth and when I get it.

thanks

NemesisC5

Good point, thanks Spin

SpinMonster

In 6 weeks of running meth 2-3 hard nights a week, I havent used more than a gallon. I would think it would easily run 2 hours of N/A level delivery without running out. As I already said, it tells you on the dash when its low. The amount you would use N/A is far less than FI levels so I would think you could likely go even longer than the 2 hours i guess at. 40 minutes......no issue.

It is instant since the fluid level in the line going to the nozzle never backs off. There is a check valve that keeps it from flowing backward.

I had to take my car apart this week after it was sitting for about 10 days. When I disconnected the nozzle, the meth was right up to the tip still and hadnt backed off. It will spray instantly when you roll into it.

jxhunte

I've been following this thread and while I found this Mod very interesting, I wasn't sure this was something I would ever consider. The more I read, the more I think "You know, I could do this"! I know Meth is adictive but this is ridiculous.

SpinMonster

I havent used that system. All the pumps used from various vendors are modded from the same pump so its about the electronics used with it.

ECS is aforum tuner and you should be sourcing the parts from them. You will not need a 2 bar MAP sensor so that will lower the price about 550. Dont shop by price with this level of technology. Buy the 499 system you see in your thread is saving 50 bucks is asking for trouble when it comes to after the sale support. ECS wont drop the ball.

You should buy from a corvette tuner to get it to work on a corvette. Doug and Chris know this car.

The IAT sensor I mentioned was specifically the one out of the MAF used on the F-bodies. It is separate from the MAF which is before the nozzle.

jbsblownc5

Very nice write up Spin!

Yes, I do believe that running Torco first, and then adding Meth, diminishes the gains of adding the meth alone, since my octane and timing had both already been raised. That being said, I still like the positive effects of running both, since the meth is only triggered to come on in the mid to upper RPMs, and when intake manifold pressure get very close to zero. Having the higher octane all the time allows for a more aggresive tune across the board, as well as a degree of safety.

I've now got 20K on my car, and it still runs like a top!


JB

SpinMonster

Let me know if you need help with it. I installed mine pretty much free of issues and can help save you time.

SpinMonster

There is no downside to the way you did it other than the cost of adding torco. I see your gains and it appears 25+rwhp plus safety in hot weather is to be the norm for vette owners in hot locations just from the cooling effect with minimal timin added.

The unit can be made to hit very low in load with a small initial hit and rising so I think the midband boost can be there too. I can get it to hit at any rpm and with 1/2 load.

Smaller misting nozzles are available. I'm in contact with Alkycontrol about this. There are other sources for nozzles specifically for N/A meth use.

SpinMonster

Julio from AlkyControl has contacted me about this thread and provided me with nozzle info and to stress the need to install the unit inside the car. It is not weather proof so dont do what I did and put it inside the car. I had planned to move it sooner than later.

Julio:
Jason,
A couple of things. First thanks for the writeup. I need to make some corrections, give you the flow rates on the nozzles, and give you some ideas.

First, technically the controller should be inside of the vehicle, the reason is that it is not weather proof. If you drive in the rain, wash the car/engine, etc and water gets into it.. bad things can happen. And having the test button inside the car will allow you to "pre-test" the kit.

Ok.. that said, the nozzles have a printed number on them, typically the kit comes with an M15=15 gallons per hour at 100 PSI. Typically an 8 cylinder application on straight alcohol will use an M15 up to about 650 RWHP typically. A 400 RWHP application will use a 10 GPH nozzle with our system. This is based on pump pressure/volume. And when using water, you drop the size down further as it becomes easy to make a mess. So I would say a 5-7 GPH nozzle for water

Now.. here's one issue I see. If you set the kit to activate under low vacuum using the MAP, when you turn the ignition ON.. you technically are activating it. Also MAP doesnt account for varying load conditions/rpm. A better way would be to inject based on "LOAD" but that technology is not available yet.

Now I have a converter I built a month ago to tie our kit into a GM alternate signal source. (The info here is in developement and has been deleted from this post for confidentiality of Julio's work.)

So if you want to guinea pig it.. i'll be more than happy to send it your way for testing.

Now.. next item.. meth vs mix. I guess it depends on goals. If you increase the volume of mix and the car loses power or sputters.. then you need to increase the methanol concentration. Every car is different. With nitrous i'd probably ditch the water altogether.

Anyways.. when you can get some free time during the week, drop me a call. be happy to assist you any way I can.

Based on Julio's advice I would use the MAP for the trigger with an RPM on switch for low load use (not a window switch unless you set the high RPM off above the engines use range). High load will not output a voltage high enough to trigger the system as in JB's car. This will prevent the spraying of the system upon start-up. I will keep everyone current on the use of the experimental trigger.

Julio and ECS give this kind of support so dont fool yourself into thinking that saving 50 bucks on the 'other' system is a good idea.

Thanks Julio for the quick response.

Wicked Weasel

Thanks Spin.

Doug and I have talked about this off and on for some time now for the RR cars. As of this year we decided to continue to use 100 octane at the track but having more data from others could change our future considerations.

Bob

Dan Wendling

Thanks Spin. Saving a few bucks was not a consideration in my post, simply that the controller looked more advanced and perhaps offered more features. I do appreciate that ECS has a great reputation and understand the importance of support. I did search the forum but found nothing much about AIS and their offerings, hence I asked.

Might be worth waiting for Juilo's new controller that I hope you offer to beta test.

...

Regards the IAT install. Do you have any pictures of where to install with a stock intake or even better with a Haltech Killer Bee? Or perhaps the idea is to use an ECS charge tube with an air filter in place of the inter-cooler.