What Is Your Definition Of 'Bolt On' ??
11-21-2007, 11:37 PM
#62
Race Director
you posted a6 o well if you dont know i dont know
11-22-2007, 03:07 AM
#64
Team Owner
No need to keep working on it, it's already done.
Debating these definitions is like debating whether Corvettes are really sports cars or not.
Oh, but the mere 5 people in this one thread that are now trying to REWRITE those same long acknowledged and accepted rules are any better than that 'somone else' you refer to?
Not sure how a couple of guys, some who are even relatively new to the 'LSx bolt on' game have MORE credibility about defining rules than the thousands of LSx vehicle owners on Corvette Forum, Z06 Vette, LS1Tech.com and LS2.com who have happily lived by them for the last 5-10 years?
Debating these definitions is like debating whether Corvettes are really sports cars or not.
Oh, but the mere 5 people in this one thread that are now trying to REWRITE those same long acknowledged and accepted rules are any better than that 'somone else' you refer to?
Not sure how a couple of guys, some who are even relatively new to the 'LSx bolt on' game have MORE credibility about defining rules than the thousands of LSx vehicle owners on Corvette Forum, Z06 Vette, LS1Tech.com and LS2.com who have happily lived by them for the last 5-10 years?
11-22-2007, 07:18 AM
#65
Racer
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To me, the gray area is torque converters and gears. I'm not an automatic guy, so I just naturally consider that "cheating". I know someone who is going to come after me on this - you know who you are! You're a "forum friend" so, I'm ready for a good debate - nothing personal
IMO anyway
11-22-2007, 08:20 AM
#66
Team Owner
No need to keep working on it, it's already done.
Debating these definitions is like debating whether Corvettes are really sports cars or not.
Oh, but the mere 5 people in this one thread that are now trying to REWRITE those same long acknowledged and accepted rules are any better than that 'somone else' you refer to?
Not sure how a couple of guys, some who are even relatively new to the 'LSx bolt on' game have MORE credibility about defining rules than the thousands of LSx vehicle owners on Corvette Forum, Z06 Vette, LS1Tech.com and LS2.com who have happily lived by them for the last 5-10 years?
Debating these definitions is like debating whether Corvettes are really sports cars or not.
Oh, but the mere 5 people in this one thread that are now trying to REWRITE those same long acknowledged and accepted rules are any better than that 'somone else' you refer to?
Not sure how a couple of guys, some who are even relatively new to the 'LSx bolt on' game have MORE credibility about defining rules than the thousands of LSx vehicle owners on Corvette Forum, Z06 Vette, LS1Tech.com and LS2.com who have happily lived by them for the last 5-10 years?
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the fact that these "rules" that are "long acknowledged" are somehow something that we all must agree to. To me,the only kind of rules that are meaningful are in sanctioned events - such as NHRA, SCCA etc, and where the outcome is for more than just bragging rights on a forum. Heck we just assume that the fastest Corvettes in the land are right here on Tommy's list. Do we even acknowledge that there are probably some pretty good times out there by people who don't even know about this forum?
Until someone shows me that there is some kind of sanctioned "bolt on" class where the rules are actually spelled out, I think we have the right to debate them as much as we damn well please.
11-22-2007, 08:54 AM
#67
Team Owner
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Location: Bann Camp & N.Y.C.
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St. Jude Donor '08
.......my comment before was that the LS3 A6 will dominate the list, my goal is to tap 10's but I'll be happy with low 11's
11-22-2007, 09:08 AM
#68
Race Director
Oh, excuse me, I've only been on this forum almost every day for over six years, and somehow I guess I've missed it every time the rule book has been posted
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the fact that these "rules" that are "long acknowledged" are somehow something that we all must agree to. To me,the only kind of rules that are meaningful are in sanctioned events - such as NHRA, SCCA etc, and where the outcome is for more than just bragging rights on a forum. Heck we just assume that the fastest Corvettes in the land are right here on Tommy's list. Do we even acknowledge that there are probably some pretty good times out there by people who don't even know about this forum?
Until someone shows me that there is some kind of sanctioned "bolt on" class where the rules are actually spelled out, I think we have the right to debate them as much as we damn well please.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the fact that these "rules" that are "long acknowledged" are somehow something that we all must agree to. To me,the only kind of rules that are meaningful are in sanctioned events - such as NHRA, SCCA etc, and where the outcome is for more than just bragging rights on a forum. Heck we just assume that the fastest Corvettes in the land are right here on Tommy's list. Do we even acknowledge that there are probably some pretty good times out there by people who don't even know about this forum?
Until someone shows me that there is some kind of sanctioned "bolt on" class where the rules are actually spelled out, I think we have the right to debate them as much as we damn well please.
11-22-2007, 09:14 AM
#69
Race Director
11-22-2007, 09:44 AM
#71
Team Owner
You have to understand my personality type. I'm a very logical thinking person. Logic tells me there are no "rules" for boltons for forum bragging rights.
Happy thanksgiving to you too Dennis - and yes, I know your comment is all in fun - as are mine - well, most of mine
11-22-2007, 09:55 AM
#72
Race Director
Actually, I'm feeling quite well, and in a good mood. This is just my normal bitchiness coming through
You have to understand my personality type. I'm a very logical thinking person. Logic tells me there are no "rules" for boltons for forum bragging rights.
Happy thanksgiving to you too Dennis - and yes, I know your comment is all in fun - as are mine - well, most of mine
You have to understand my personality type. I'm a very logical thinking person. Logic tells me there are no "rules" for boltons for forum bragging rights.
Happy thanksgiving to you too Dennis - and yes, I know your comment is all in fun - as are mine - well, most of mine
11-22-2007, 11:11 AM
#73
Team Owner
Not everyone has internet access or even uses the internet if they do (quite rare actually) but drag strips are rarely totally empty of spectators, also known as people/car enthusiasts/LSx fans etc that ARE on the internet. If a car runs a stellar new time, some how/some way it will find it's way onto the net ("hey just posting that a friend of a friend saw this Corvette/Camaro/Mustang run a xx.xx at Milan last night" etc.) and we all know how info spreads from there, I've seen it thousands of times.
Logic also tells me that geographical location can eliminate some of the possibililty of one car exceeding another's track times as well, say Denver CO in July for instance.
Now none of this means that it's absolutely outside the realm of possibility that no one else in the world has exceeded the times on these lists with an identical/similarly set up car but when thinking in terms of 'likelihood and probability' one might just be able to use the lists as a true sampling of what is out there.
That being said, Happy Thanksgiving to all.
11-22-2007, 11:13 AM
#74
Safety Car
Oh, excuse me, I've only been on this forum almost every day for over six years, and somehow I guess I've missed it every time the rule book has been posted
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the fact that these "rules" that are "long acknowledged" are somehow something that we all must agree to.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the fact that these "rules" that are "long acknowledged" are somehow something that we all must agree to.
Now someone wants to say that on LS1 tech bolt on means "blah blah" for the purposes of that forum, fine. I can live with that. I dont accept that the internet definition should outweigh the real world definition which at least in my area does not agree with the internet version.
Edit... Right now the ol lady is in the galley making a fine turkey dinner and Im sitting here on my laptop arguing something pointless. Does it get any better than that?
Last edited by crabman; 11-22-2007 at 11:17 AM.
11-22-2007, 11:56 AM
#75
Team Owner
And I hope everyone knows - especially the "regulars" that have posted here that I love a good debate, and I think that this group would have a grand time sitting around a big table at hOOters having this discussion in person. I do, in fact, have a group of about 10 guys who do just that. Not as often as we used to, but we still do occasionally.
To me, that is the vain in which I make these debates - like a bunch of friends sitting around a table saying what's on our minds.
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone as well
11-22-2007, 12:11 PM
#76
I have to get out here and fry this turkey. I just left the "Bolt on 08 Z51 C6 runs dead even with stock 07 Z06" thread, and figured that another "Bolt On" thread would be a safe bet.
You guys didn't disappoint.
Happy Thinksgiving all my friends. Y'all are a special group.
You guys didn't disappoint.
Happy Thinksgiving all my friends. Y'all are a special group.
11-22-2007, 12:14 PM
#77
Team Owner
The term "bolt on" was around long before there was an internet or internet experts. I'll stick with the definition that flesh and blood people in my area know and understand which has not changed over the years. In my area gears are not bolt ons. Never have been. Nor is a TC swap to a higher stall a bolt on.
Now someone wants to say that on LS1 tech bolt on means "blah blah" for the purposes of that forum, fine. I can live with that. I dont accept that the internet definition should outweigh the real world definition which at least in my area does not agree with the internet version.
Now someone wants to say that on LS1 tech bolt on means "blah blah" for the purposes of that forum, fine. I can live with that. I dont accept that the internet definition should outweigh the real world definition which at least in my area does not agree with the internet version.
Refuting/challenging Dennis's and other's claims maybe?
Another LS2 versus LS3 discussion?
You do know that if you throw out the passes from a converted/geared LS2 car than you ALSO have to toss them on the LS3 cars as well right?
And yes that would now also mean that anyone not running a pure bone stock/OEM/unmodified and unaltered clutch is no longer a bolt on car.
I want to see how the few of you that are backing those terms up are going to sell it to the vast majority that have lived by and with these definitions for many years now LOL. Good luck.
11-22-2007, 12:14 PM
#78
Team Owner
And I hope everyone knows - especially the "regulars" that have posted here that I love a good debate, and I think that this group would have a grand time sitting around a big table at hOOters having this discussion in person. I do, in fact, have a group of about 10 guys who do just that. Not as often as we used to, but we still do occasionally.
To me, that is the vain in which I make these debates - like a bunch of friends sitting around a table saying what's on our minds.
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone as well
To me, that is the vain in which I make these debates - like a bunch of friends sitting around a table saying what's on our minds.
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone as well
and I think a lot of us can actually learn from some of these discussions as well. 
11-22-2007, 12:40 PM
#79
Team Owner
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CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03,'04,'05,'07,08,'09,'10,’17
I am also in the camp that thinks a gear swap or a t.c. swap is NOT a bolt on. I like the definitition using "touches oil", and think it should be alterred to include gear lube and tranny fluid. To me, a bolt on is a minor mod. Changing rear gears or a t.c. is not a minor mod.
But WRT to the LS2/ LS3 debate, the liberal definition of a bolt on does not bother me at all, because LS3 folks can add the same mods and then we'll have apples to apples. The only caveat to that is, people don't typically make major mods like that to a brand new car (and I think everyone knows that ) and that's why we can't expect to see many low 11 sec runs on the '08's this soon. But that's o.k. I understand.
And WRT to the "remember, you like to shift" comment - that's fine. I don't have a problem with the fact that autos are easier to make consistently fast in the 1/4. Personally, I would never base a tranny choice on a high dollar purchase for the drag strip. I'm going to get the MN6 because that's what I enjoy driving KNOWING that it puts me at a disadvantage at the dragstrip. But since I'll drive it at the strip once a year or less, that's what suits me best. Just like someone who drags often, will get more out of setting their car up for the 1/4 mile. I prefer the 1/2 mile myself.
What bothers me more is the liberal definition of "stock". In fact, why did the term bone stock evolve? I'll tell you why: it's because people stretched the meaning of the term "stock" so far that folks began using the term "bone stock" to clarify that the car really really was stock , as in - that's how it rolled off the assembly line. Now the term "bone stock" has been bastardized to the point that someone can have a mod such as a CAI or sticky non RF tires, and they'll still call it "bone stock" 
Happy Thanksgiving everyone !! See you at hOOters!!
But WRT to the LS2/ LS3 debate, the liberal definition of a bolt on does not bother me at all, because LS3 folks can add the same mods and then we'll have apples to apples. The only caveat to that is, people don't typically make major mods like that to a brand new car (and I think everyone knows that
) and that's why we can't expect to see many low 11 sec runs on the '08's this soon. But that's o.k. I understand. And WRT to the "remember, you like to shift" comment - that's fine. I don't have a problem with the fact that autos are easier to make consistently fast in the 1/4. Personally, I would never base a tranny choice on a high dollar purchase for the drag strip. I'm going to get the MN6 because that's what I enjoy driving KNOWING that it puts me at a disadvantage at the dragstrip. But since I'll drive it at the strip once a year or less, that's what suits me best. Just like someone who drags often, will get more out of setting their car up for the 1/4 mile. I prefer the 1/2 mile myself.
What bothers me more is the liberal definition of "stock". In fact, why did the term bone stock evolve? I'll tell you why: it's because people stretched the meaning of the term "stock" so far that folks began using the term "bone stock" to clarify that the car really really was stock
, as in - that's how it rolled off the assembly line. Now the term "bone stock" has been bastardized to the point that someone can have a mod such as a CAI or sticky non RF tires, and they'll still call it "bone stock" Happy Thanksgiving everyone !! See you at hOOters!!
Last edited by need-for-speed; 11-22-2007 at 12:48 PM.
11-22-2007, 01:59 PM
#80
Safety Car
Fair enough...but now if there is some sort of hidden agenda as to why this all is coming out NOW and not 2+ years ago when this list was first being put together than I'd be curious to hear it.
I want to see how the few of you that are backing those terms up are going to sell it to the vast majority that have lived by and with these definitions for many years now LOL. Good luck.
I want to see how the few of you that are backing those terms up are going to sell it to the vast majority that have lived by and with these definitions for many years now LOL. Good luck.