Torque Management System - C6
08-06-2006, 09:14 AM
#461
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Originally Posted by dennis50nj
because no one can really take it all the way out but they seemed to have mastered it.and lots of the people i have seen run 17 inch wheels and 18 inch and they don't have those sixty ft times. and i never seen a line lock make a car faster just heating tires easier and no roll out at the line
it's not the individual mods that make the huge difference, it's the culmination of all the mods.
08-06-2006, 10:06 AM
#462
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Zig
is the computer being reprogrammed at all, after these mods.
someone mentioned that the TM system used inputs and values from numerous tables. if that's the case, then it may be possible that the other edits change the threshold for tm.
would only be valid if the computer is not edited.
someone mentioned that the TM system used inputs and values from numerous tables. if that's the case, then it may be possible that the other edits change the threshold for tm.
would only be valid if the computer is not edited.
08-06-2006, 10:12 AM
#463
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Originally Posted by jschindler
LS2 Engines were being modded before software was available to "tune" them.
is it possible that the computer raised the TM limits, using it's own algorithms, to account for the modification(s) ?
08-06-2006, 11:53 AM
#464
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Zig
gains were obtained without tuning ? hhmmm....i've heard that the c6 computer will self-adjust for some modifications.
is it possible that the computer raised the TM limits, using it's own algorithms, to account for the modification(s) ?
is it possible that the computer raised the TM limits, using it's own algorithms, to account for the modification(s) ?
08-06-2006, 12:18 PM
#465
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Jim, Ken and I both have felt for some time the TM "learned" over a period of time to be less and less aggressive - just speculation based on how our cars reacted.
I think possibly that eventually when one has modded to a certain increase of power, which is outside the PCM parameters, the TM becomes much less aggressive - maybe even none at all. My .02
Also, I've not read all 24 pages so the following may be a dupe, if so, my apologies, but for those who question what TM is and does:
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
To prevent overstress of the powertrain components
To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers
The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque:
Air/Fuel ratio
Mass Air Flow (MAF)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance
Engine Speed
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
A/C Clutch Status
The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.
*The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced:*
During transmission upshifts and downshifts
Heavy acceleration from a standing start
The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.
The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases.
The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuver.
Copyright © 2004 ALLDATA LLC
I think possibly that eventually when one has modded to a certain increase of power, which is outside the PCM parameters, the TM becomes much less aggressive - maybe even none at all. My .02
Also, I've not read all 24 pages so the following may be a dupe, if so, my apologies, but for those who question what TM is and does:
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
To prevent overstress of the powertrain components
To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers
The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque:
Air/Fuel ratio
Mass Air Flow (MAF)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance
Engine Speed
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
A/C Clutch Status
The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.
*The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced:*
During transmission upshifts and downshifts
Heavy acceleration from a standing start
The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.
The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases.
The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuver.
Copyright © 2004 ALLDATA LLC
08-06-2006, 01:37 PM
#466
Race Director
Originally Posted by Steve02C5
Jim, Ken and I both have felt for some time the TM "learned" over a period of time to be less and less aggressive - just speculation based on how our cars reacted.
I think possibly that eventually when one has modded to a certain increase of power, which is outside the PCM parameters, the TM becomes much less aggressive - maybe even none at all. My .02
Also, I've not read all 24 pages so the following may be a dupe, if so, my apologies, but for those who question what TM is and does:
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
To prevent overstress of the powertrain components
To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers
The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque:
Air/Fuel ratio
Mass Air Flow (MAF)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance
Engine Speed
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
A/C Clutch Status
The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.
*The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced:*
During transmission upshifts and downshifts
Heavy acceleration from a standing start
The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.
The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases.
The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuver.
Copyright © 2004 ALLDATA LLC
I think possibly that eventually when one has modded to a certain increase of power, which is outside the PCM parameters, the TM becomes much less aggressive - maybe even none at all. My .02
Also, I've not read all 24 pages so the following may be a dupe, if so, my apologies, but for those who question what TM is and does:
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
To prevent overstress of the powertrain components
To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers
The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque:
Air/Fuel ratio
Mass Air Flow (MAF)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance
Engine Speed
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
A/C Clutch Status
The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.
*The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced:*
During transmission upshifts and downshifts
Heavy acceleration from a standing start
The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.
The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases.
The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuver.
Copyright © 2004 ALLDATA LLC
08-06-2006, 01:45 PM
#467
Race Director
Originally Posted by Zig
didn't mean to imply the line-loc would make the car faster, it will help improve your launch which in turn will improve your 60' etc.
it's not the individual mods that make the huge difference, it's the culmination of all the mods.
it's not the individual mods that make the huge difference, it's the culmination of all the mods.
08-06-2006, 01:52 PM
#468
Race Director
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
if a line lock improves your launch which then in tirn improves your 60 ft every body hear should buy a line lock because if it improved your 60 ft 1/10th your et would improve 2 1/10s. it does nothing but lets you concentrate on the tree and not worry about rolling out. better reaction time maybe better 60 ft et no way.
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
At the line we have the brake 100% applied. With a line lock there is no brake applied. The question being does this happen if AH and TC are off?
08-06-2006, 01:58 PM
#469
Melting Slicks
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Originally Posted by Ranger
the Cartek TM-module definitely works and it offers the advantage that it can be toggled on and off.
Ranger
Ranger
I have never once said the Cartek module did not do what it purports to do. It would be foolhardy for them to sell a product that did not do what was claimed by the seller.
Those three posts, though, give the uninformed three pieces of information they may not have otherwise understood:
1) The Cartek module does NOT directly control the various tuning parameters (i.e. alter tables, total timing, etc).
2) It does indeed disable ABS when active.
3) It does require wired-in modifications.
If, knowing those things, the world wants to buy a million of them, I wish all concerned only success. Likewise, if knowing that prevents someone from buying something that is not a fit for them personally (i.e. they assumed/heard/thought it was 'tuning' and also leaving ABS in place -- or they want to know more than Cartek will give about what it does and does not do - i.e. AH impact), then that is good, too.
08-06-2006, 02:06 PM
#470
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Originally Posted by shurite44
Y
I thought you fellows were trying to say the C6 reduced torque by applying the brakes during WOT. That is impossible, so that is why I was confused.
I thought you fellows were trying to say the C6 reduced torque by applying the brakes during WOT. That is impossible, so that is why I was confused.
AFAIK, no one claimed that torque management somehow worked by activating the brakes (via ABS or otherwise), but that may be what you thought you heard.
08-06-2006, 05:08 PM
#471
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
if a line lock improves your launch which then in tirn improves your 60 ft every body hear should buy a line lock because if it improved your 60 ft 1/10th your et would improve 2 1/10s. it does nothing but lets you concentrate on the tree and not worry about rolling out. better reaction time maybe better 60 ft et no way.
The reason you get better 60 ft times with a line lock has nothing to do with the starting line. It has to do with being able to do a decent burn out consistently.
Go to a real drag race not a test and tune. Everyone competitive racer and their brother with a door car has a line lock for that purpose. At the line they use a trans brake.
Some with automatic transmissions use a line lock at the line to eliminate any roll back or forward due to servo leakage or maladjustment or slight malfunction of the 1st and reverse clutch packs.
Pro stock cars and those with similar multi disk clutch packs use a line lock at the line but in their case the clutch packs which have drag at idle and would cause the car to move forward. The idea is to have as little pressure plate movement as possible to get the best reaction time. This however is not the usual application of line locks.
08-06-2006, 05:15 PM
#472
Race Director
Originally Posted by TMyers
Just speculating but it might help 60ft times. From Steve's post:
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
At the line we have the brake 100% applied. With a line lock there is no brake applied. The question being does this happen if AH and TC are off?
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
At the line we have the brake 100% applied. With a line lock there is no brake applied. The question being does this happen if AH and TC are off?
no it does not. do you know how a line lock works. no you don't, it locks the front brakes 100%. so 50% front 50% rear 100%. 50% front more than 40%. so you are arguing somebodies wrong information and you don't even know! that's what makes this thread so full of wrong info and so amusing. one guy states it the other swears it. not once but over and over again.
08-06-2006, 06:13 PM
#473
Where or where does these myths and notions come from ?
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
08-06-2006, 06:29 PM
#474
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Where or where does these myths and notions come from ?
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
08-06-2006, 06:32 PM
#475
Race Director
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Where or where does these myths and notions come from ?
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
08-06-2006, 06:42 PM
#476
Race Director
Originally Posted by ronsc1985
The reason you get better 60 ft times with a line lock has nothing to do with the starting line. It has to do with being able to do a decent burn out consistently.
Go to a real drag race not a test and tune. Everyone competitive racer and their brother with a door car has a line lock for that purpose. At the line they use a trans brake.
Some with automatic transmissions use a line lock at the line to eliminate any roll back or forward due to servo leakage or maladjustment or slight malfunction of the 1st and reverse clutch packs.
Pro stock cars and those with similar multi disk clutch packs use a line lock at the line but in their case the clutch packs which have drag at idle and would cause the car to move forward. The idea is to have as little pressure plate movement as possible to get the best reaction time. This however is not the usual application of line locks.
Go to a real drag race not a test and tune. Everyone competitive racer and their brother with a door car has a line lock for that purpose. At the line they use a trans brake.
Some with automatic transmissions use a line lock at the line to eliminate any roll back or forward due to servo leakage or maladjustment or slight malfunction of the 1st and reverse clutch packs.
Pro stock cars and those with similar multi disk clutch packs use a line lock at the line but in their case the clutch packs which have drag at idle and would cause the car to move forward. The idea is to have as little pressure plate movement as possible to get the best reaction time. This however is not the usual application of line locks.
08-06-2006, 07:12 PM
#477
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Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Where or where does these myths and notions come from ?
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
Yea a line lock allows for easy heating up the tires but a line lock's main purpose is to stage, bring up the RPMs,back off clutch a bit without rolling and have engine and drivetrain loaded and torqued up so when launch is done its instant motion plus allows some weight to transfer back over rear tires
This is useful for a manual transmission where on a automatic people do brake torquing for good launches.
08-06-2006, 07:44 PM
#478
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excellent information.
is this the type of information we can all agree would be an accurate desciption of tm, for the purposes of this thread ?
do you, Steve02c5, know how much of this information applies to the manual transmision as well as the automatics ?
since the pcm is using the Air/Fuel ratio, Mass Air Flow (MAF), Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP), Intake Air Temperature (IAT), Spark Advance, Engine Speed (RPMs), Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT), A/C Clutch Status modifications too the air intake system could result in different hp numbers being reported to the pcm. true ?
this is the first i've heard of tm learning, and i imagine it could be possible, just never thought about it. i'm trying to find what everyone can agree is a tm event so i can tell if i should have felt or experienced one. so far i haven't felt anything that i would think of as tm. i've run the car pretty hard a couple of times but haven't had it flatten out on me.
is this the type of information we can all agree would be an accurate desciption of tm, for the purposes of this thread ?
do you, Steve02c5, know how much of this information applies to the manual transmision as well as the automatics ?
since the pcm is using the Air/Fuel ratio, Mass Air Flow (MAF), Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP), Intake Air Temperature (IAT), Spark Advance, Engine Speed (RPMs), Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT), A/C Clutch Status modifications too the air intake system could result in different hp numbers being reported to the pcm. true ?
this is the first i've heard of tm learning, and i imagine it could be possible, just never thought about it. i'm trying to find what everyone can agree is a tm event so i can tell if i should have felt or experienced one. so far i haven't felt anything that i would think of as tm. i've run the car pretty hard a couple of times but haven't had it flatten out on me.
Originally Posted by Steve02C5
Jim, Ken and I both have felt for some time the TM "learned" over a period of time to be less and less aggressive - just speculation based on how our cars reacted.
I think possibly that eventually when one has modded to a certain increase of power, which is outside the PCM parameters, the TM becomes much less aggressive - maybe even none at all. My .02
Also, I've not read all 24 pages so the following may be a dupe, if so, my apologies, but for those who question what TM is and does:
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
To prevent overstress of the powertrain components
To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers
The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque:
Air/Fuel ratio
Mass Air Flow (MAF)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance
Engine Speed
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
A/C Clutch Status
The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.
*The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced:*
During transmission upshifts and downshifts
Heavy acceleration from a standing start
The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.
The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases.
The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuver.
Copyright © 2004 ALLDATA LLC
I think possibly that eventually when one has modded to a certain increase of power, which is outside the PCM parameters, the TM becomes much less aggressive - maybe even none at all. My .02
Also, I've not read all 24 pages so the following may be a dupe, if so, my apologies, but for those who question what TM is and does:
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
To prevent overstress of the powertrain components
To reduce engine power during certain throttle actuator control (TAC) system faults
To limit the engine power when the brakes are applied more than approximately 40 percent
To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers
The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque:
Air/Fuel ratio
Mass Air Flow (MAF)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance
Engine Speed
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT)
A/C Clutch Status
The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the extended brake switch input in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power in the case of an abusive maneuver.
*The following are instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced:*
During transmission upshifts and downshifts
Heavy acceleration from a standing start
The brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (with the traction system active).
When the driver is performing harsh or abusive maneuvers, such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create a rocking motion.
The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances. The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases.
The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. The PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuver.
Copyright © 2004 ALLDATA LLC
08-06-2006, 07:51 PM
#479
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Steve02C5
[I]Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:
Thanks ahead of time.
08-06-2006, 08:58 PM
#480
Race Director
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
no it does not. do you know how a line lock works. no you don't, it locks the front brakes 100%. so 50% front 50% rear 100%. 50% front more than 40%. so you are arguing somebodies wrong information and you don't even know! that's what makes this thread so full of wrong info and so amusing. one guy states it the other swears it. not once but over and over again.