daje58@hotmail.com

C6Z06 and i need to keep warranty. Can they(GM) detect previous tune?

Boomer111

Yup

seevi

Predator claims that it's hand held tuner can restore your stock tune transparently and their tune becomes undetectable.

pewter99

yep...there was a lengthy thread about this...let me see if I can find it

pewter99

not the one I was looking for but

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...out-tunes.html


Post #58

pewter99

found it

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...his-first.html

BLACK 08

Yea I saw that too. I was pretty suprised when they made that claim. I don't believe it for a minute and this is right off of their site.

Disclaimer

THIS END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (the “Agreement”) is an agreement between you, as the purchaser (the “Purchaser”) of either the Diablo Module (the “Module”) or the hand-held computer unit (the “Unit”), and as the manufacturer of the Product DiabloSport (“DiabloSport”). The Product and the Unit shall be referred to collectively herein as the “product” and DiabloSport Inc. shall be referred to herein as “DiabloSport”.


1. Acknowledgment And Acceptance Of Agreement. If you do not agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, do not use the Product. Instead, promptly contact the distributor from which you purchased the Product in writing, requesting a refund of the purchase price. Any use of the Product by you will constitute your agreement to the terms and conditions contained herein.
2. Grant Of License. The parties hereto acknowledge that DiabloSport is granting a non-transferable restricted license to Purchaser to use the Product for the sole purpose of installation in Purchaser’s vehicle. DiabloSport shall retain all title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Product. Purchaser agrees that Purchaser shall not, directly or indirectly, modify, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or create derivative works based on the Product. Purchaser further agrees not to permit any third parties to modify, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or create derivative works based on the Product.
3. Disclaimer. The Product is being sold with no warranties of any kind, express or implied. The Product is not endorsed by the manufacturer of your vehicle and there is no affiliation between DiabloSport and the manufacturer of your vehicle. Installation of the Product in your vehicle or use of the Product with your vehicle may limit or void your rights under any warranty provided by the manufacturer of your vehicle, and DiabloSport assumes no responsibility in such event. Any warranty not provided herein, and any remedy which, but for this provision, might arise by implication or operation of law, is hereby excluded and disclaimed. The implied warranties of merchantability and of fitness for any particular purpose herein are expressly disclaimed.
4. No Liability For Damages, Injuries Or Incidental, Special Or Con-sequential Damages. Under no circumstances shall DiabloSport, or any other party related to DiabloSport, be liable to Purchaser or any other person for any damage to Purchaser’s vehicle, loss of use of Purchaser’s vehicle, or for personal injuries suffered by any person, or for any incidental, special or consequential damages, whether arising out of negligence, breach of warranty, breach of contract, or otherwise. DiabloSport’s liability for any damages, loss and/or claims associated with the Product shall be limited to the price of the Product paid by purchaser. Purchaser hereby releases DiabloSport from all liability, claims and damages associated with the Products, with the sole exception of DiabloSport’s liability for the refund of the purchase price of the Product to Purchaser in the event that a court of competent jurisdiction determines the Purchaser suffered damages directly resulting from the malfunction of the Product. 5.Warranty. Notwithstanding the provisions of the End User License Agreement, DiabloSport warrants the Product to be free from all defects in material and workmanship for 2 years from the date of original purchase. This limited warranty applies only to the original Purchaser of the Product. This limited warranty does not cover damage caused by modification, alteration, repair or service of the Product by anyone other than DiabloSport, physical abuse, misuse, use in a manner contrary to the instructions, which accompany the Product, or any damage caused by acts of God. Contacting your Distributor or Dealer may make claims for repair service or replacement of the Product pursuant to this limited warranty. The Chip will either be repaired or replaced, at the option of DiabloSport, at no cost to Purchaser, if the defective Product is covered by this limited warranty. DiabloSport’s liability pursuant to this limited warranty and for any damages, loss and/or claims associated with the Product shall be limited to the price of the Product paid by Purchaser, or, at DiabloSport’s option, repair or replacement of the Product.


a. DiabloSport offers a 30 day satisfaction guarantee on all products.

b. DiabloSport products carry a 2 year warranty against defects in materials or workmanship.


i. DiabloSports liability under this warranty shall be limited to the correction or replacement of any defective part or product in question which DiabloSport determines to be necessary.
ii. Warranty freight charges are the responsibility of the dealer distributor and/or customer.
iii. This warranty is to the original purchaser and is non transferable.
-This warranty is void unless proof of purchase is submitted. Product must be purchased at an DiabloSport Authorized Dealer in order to qualify for warranty.
-Removal of serial numbers and/or alteration of product or packaging will also void all warranties.

c. DiabloSport shall not be held responsible for direct or indirect failures due to our product.
d. DiabloSport shall not credit or repair any units that are not properly restored to the original backup upon time of return or may be VIN locked.


i. VIN locked units, or improperly restored units, will be returned to customer.
ii. It is the customers responsibility to check any and all DiabloSport product to make sure the original backups have been restored to vehicles before the product shall be returned.

e. Technical Support


i. DiabloSport customers should maintain adequate knowledge of the DiabloSport product line to be able to properly sell, and to service the needs of their customers.
ii. DiabloSport will provide technical assistance and advice directly to the dealer/distributor to enable them to answer and field technical questions.
iii. It is the responsibility of the dealer distributor to handle their own technical issues with customers, and not to direct them to DiabloSport.


f. Product updates


i. DiabloSport shall inform all customers of the latest product as soon as they are available. DiabloSport will inform customers on our website at www.diablosport.com.
ii. DiabloSport cannot be held accountable for any or all damages caused by using outdated product.
iii. Products that need updates will be handled in the following fashion:

1. DiabloSport will charge a labor and handling fee for products that are internet updateable or remotely updateable.
2. DiabloSport will not charge a fee for products that are not internet updateable or remotely updateable. Shipping charges may apply.

iv. All products returned for update purposes must have a corresponding DiabloSport RMA number for processing.

g. Returns and RMA/RGA policies and procedures

i. DiabloSport will not warranty, credit, or exchange any product returned without a valid RMA number.

1. All RMA numbers are issued by DiabloSport RMA department.
2. Defective units shall be repaired and returned in like kind. All units that must be re-furbished to like new condition are subject to labor and parts charges to be determined by DiabloSport.

ii. Customers are subject to a 20% restocking fee for all product returned for credit.
iii. All units on RMA MUST have conditions for which they were returned clearly labeled on the box, or given to a DiabloSport RMA representative at the time the RMA is issued.


6. State Law. Some states do not allow limitations of implied warranties, or the exclusion or limitation of incidental, special or consequential damages, so the above limitations may not apply to you. In such states, liability shall be limited to the greatest extent permitted by applicable law.

7. Governing Law & Venue. This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Florida, and venue for any legal proceeding or action at law arising out of or construing this Agreement shall lie in the state or federal courts of Orange County, Florida, and the parties specifically waive any other venue.

DISCLAIMER Not legal for sale or use on any pollution controlled motor vehicles. Legal in California only for racing vehicles which may never be used upon a highway.


All DiabloSport products have a satisfaction guarantee. If in the first 30 days from date of purchase you are not satisfied with the results the Predator generates in your vehicle, simply restore the factory tune to your vehicle and return the Predator to the selling dealer. Pending examination of the tool by DiabloSport, you will receive a refund from your selling dealer. Under no circumstances will DiabloSport accept the return of a Predator unit that does not have a performance tune remaining in it.

seevi

I had a lengthy off Forum thread of mails with a fellow from Predator (which I unfortunately erased) about their product flashing a stock tune back to your car with their handheld. He was adamant that GM could not tell that the ECU had been flashed and reflashed. I asked the Corvette guru at the local (mod friendly) dealer who has been working on Vettes for 26 years and he told me that the Warren Tech Center can tell right ways if the calibration on an ECU has been tampered with.

The legalese that Predator uses surreptitiously protects them from any liability after using their product. So, they turn off the torque management in their tune, you flash your car and then you destroy your transmission. Your SOL when the Tech Center sends the dealer back your ECU with a complete report of the changes and denies your warrantee claim. You call Predator and I’ll bet you get deaf years to your cries!

Mike@DiabloSport

Question...

If this was the case...where are all the CF members who have had their warranty voided? If they were calling here and crying on deaf ears, certainly, they would post up here and complain, LOUDLY, no?

Do me a favor...Google it. Ask.com it. Search this forum. The web is your friend.
I am challenging you guys to find me a case where someone had their Corvettes' warranty voided by a GM dealership after flashing the vehicle with a Predator where the dealer was able to somehow (which again, they can't) prove there was a Predator there.
I wont even get into making sure the Predator actually caused the failure in question, since I know they cant see it to start with....

I'm not trying to be combative, but all any of you guys are going on is second hand, internet hearsay. I have seen it. In person. Tested it. Saw the development process. Tested it again. It works. Period.

There are countless LS3 cars out there with Predators and Trinitys in them, and not one of those customers has ever called here and claimed the dealer saw the tune. None. Never.


Thanks
Mike

Harlech

I have to agree with Mike, sounds like a bunch of hearsay. From all these people who say that GM can tell, how do you know? Has a one of you had first hand experience in the matter. And talking to your "High end vette tech buddy at the dealership" doesn't count. I see this argument day in and day out without any real life experience to back it up. I don't think the GM engineers are worried enough to spend time to develop a way separate of the ECU to monitor data being written or downloaded from the said ECU.

Which all of that is beside the point. When you decide to mod a car's performance in any way not supported by the manufacturer you have no right to bitch if your warranty is voided by the manufacturer.

And third most, I want just one of you bench racers to point out a tranny failure on a 6L80 that was directly related to the tune. I see all these people talking about taking torque management off and blowing transmissions and yet I have yet to see someone with a C6 running the 6L80 who has had one fail. If I am not mistaken Chuck at CoW has done 1000's of tranny tunes which are probably the most extreme you can do on a stock transmission and never had a report of one failing. I have been running my '08 since it had less than 250 miles on it without TM and she has seen the drag strip plenty of times. I have no issues what so ever with almost 15k on the clock now.

Basically, if you don't know what you are talking about keep your opinion to yourself.

Hands down Predator is a great unit for a bolt on car, my GTO woke up when I used it and if I hadn't gotten HP Tuners when I bought my Vette I would be running a Predator bolt on tune today.

seevi

Question, a 2008 or new LS3 is flashed with a Predator tune. Several months later the car has a power train hard part failure. Owner re-flashes the stock tune back to the car. Chevrolet asks dealer to have the ECU shipped back for examination. After examining the ECU Chevy says that the ECU has been tampered with – no warranty work! So, the owner of the car calls Diablo Sport and asks what are you going to do for me? What’s your answer?

Even thought there are no apparent posts specific to this problem on the Forum, that doesn’t mean that any don’t exist. I belong to several Corvette Clubs and have heard several members say they would like the advantages of a little extra HP but would not use a Predator or any other handheld, for fear that their car would break and their warrantee would be voided. As a comparison, if you run a K&N air filter and the dealer replaces your MAS claiming the filter oil damaged the sensor and gives you the bill, K&N wants to know about it and will defend you with the dealer. If you break your car when at Predator tune is installed and the dealer says no, Diablo cannot come forward and say prove it without incriminating both the owner and the company.

Mike@DiabloSport

There is no warranty implied or otherwise.

It seems you will never tune your car, since you seem to have some seriously deep thoughts about absolute worst case scenarios.

Once again, this is the LARGEST Corvette community int he world, surely there would be at least ONE person here who had a warranty issue with a Predator...no? Oh yeah...NO!!!!!!

Anyone here work at a dealership or have access to a Tech2 (and know how to use it!!)?? I can go right to the dealership where my buddy works, and I'll bring a video camera, flash an LS3, then plug the Tech2 in and try to find SOME sort of info that tells me the tune is there. Wont happen. Doubt you guys would believe me anyhow, so lets make the call out for someone with a Tech2 to do this test for us, independently...

Thanks
Mike

(also, why are you so convinced that your car is going to blow up? Modern day cars are pretty reliable.... )

Mike@DiabloSport

Well said.

Again, this man speaks the truth.

In fact, proper transmission tuning will do nothing but extend the life of the transmission at stock/near stock power levels, as a good tune will reduce the massive amounts of slippage that GM leaves in there, and slippage builds heat, and heat kills auto trannys, period.

edcmat-l1

That's exactly what my good friend and professional trans builder says.

As for GM declining warranties from tuning, I have a couple dealerships SEND ME CARS TO TUNE! Everything from Vettes to Cobalt SSs.

I'm not sure about the very latest brandy new cars and trucks, but forever, the only thing a TECH2 could see was whether or not the PCM had a legit GM OS. I do know you still CANNOT see any amount of the calibration file. As for sending it back to the engineering department for them to verify the .cal, as I stated, I work with a couple dealerships here, and have never heard of such a thing. Not say it has never happened anywhere.

Also as stated, if you're modding your car, you need to be taking responsibility for your actions, and not be dependent on the dealer in the event of a failure.

We have MANY brand new cars, and very low mileage 1 year old cars out there that are modded. I wouldn't think any of the owners would hold GM, Ford, or Chrysler responsible in the event of a failure.

0Chuck CoW

DSteck

Pretty much any of the editors can return your calibration to stock and leave zero trace of a reflash. GM tries to use a checksum system to verify flashes. They can check the OS ID and compare it to the checksum that should be returned... if the checksum doesn't match what it should for the OS ID, then they determine that it's not a stock tune. It's simple... there's some algorithm that takes all the data in the PCM and uses that to spit out some alphanumeric string of characters. Now, I can't say whether or not a Predator tune will pass this check... but I would say for SURE that if a Predator reloads the original tune, it would not show up. How many dealers actually go through the CVN check... I don't know, but that'd be the only way. If you flash back to stock, though, they can't tell.

See post 44 in the thread that Chuck linked.

Mike@DiabloSport

Chuck, I am failing to see how this thread answers this question, especially in regards to the DiabloSport tuner.

If the point of that post is to say that a tune can be seen, well, it was not flashed with a DiabloSport product...

Mike@DiabloSport

In reference to post #44...even if you go to the dealer WITH the Predator tune installed, they ain't going to see it. We do not change any of the calids or CVN checksums. Now, if they sent the PCM out to MI and someone read it out, they would see calibration data changed, and then you may have a problem, but there would be no flag set to make them even look in the first place.

Also, from my experience, the main thing to consider here is 9 out of 10 GM techs seem to be completely LOST as to how to do anything with a Tech2. I cant even tell you how many times I or someone here have had to sit on the phone and walk a GM tech through reflashing a PCM or performing a crank relearn, LOL.

0MarylandSpeed

First off..if someone did have their warranty voided on a Predator tune..I agree with Mike..it would be all over the forum. Anything in the world can happen..but that does not mean it will. Considering there is no evidence of anyone here having their warranty voided because of an aftermarket tune..the chances are slim to none it will happen to you. If you still don't have the stomach for that, you probably should just not mod your car.

On another note, even if the dealer could see the car was tune, I don't think they are gonna be a ***** about it to someone who bought a 50K car from them. Not when it is something that is so easy to over look. The dealership generally makes money on warranty work..so they should want to do it.

daje58@hotmail.com

Where is a GM guy that will give us the final word?
I could barely afford the car and can not afford to lose my warranty that i used a bargain chip to convince my wife that we would not have to worry about cars repairs for a while. Also told her that other guys take theirs to track and if anything happens it is covered by warranty.
I guess to be safe i will stay away from tune for a while unless i hear convincing facts.Thanks for all input. Intent was together info and i did. Thanks