LSconverted

Whats up! I'm building an LQ4 6.0 with an ECS 1500 kit and am in need of some heads. Without trying to break the bank has anyone ran 821/823 heads on theirs? I hear they flow great and would expect them to shine up top. I've seen some write ups on other forums suggesting 243's could help regain some low end torque but dont flow as well as the LS3 heads. Seems like the LS3 heads have gone up quite a bit since I checked last, summit has them around $8xx each, so $1600 ish a pair. I feel like i can get used 243's for next to nothing. Does anyone have any real world input on a setup like this? It's for a 2005 corvette with a T56. Any input is greatly appreciated!

old motorhead

Don't go apeshit on the cam and even ported LS3 heads are fine down low. Also, don't rule out ported LS2 heads. They flow pretty damn close to stock LS3 heads. Budget play would be to ship a set of LS2 heads to TxSpeed for their CNC port work. They'll also disassemble, clean, do a completion valve job, and assemble with your valve spring of choice. I believe it's 800 bucks for LS2 or LS3 heads. They look like new when you get them back.

LSconverted

Very informative! I appreciate that Sir. Sounds like you really can’t go wrong with either. I agree it sounds like my best bet is to pick up a used set and have a company clean then up or cnc port them. As far as the cam i’m not looking to go too crazy, was really just looking for help choosing a decent head for this setup. Thanks for the help.

SteveJewels

I just went through this exercise.

I am having a 5.3l aluminum block sleeved, 4.125" X 4" = 427 ci. V-3 Ti billet, E-85.

Heads on a blown engine are not as important as those on an NA engine so I didn't want to dump a lot of money on them. I looked at porting LS3 heads, getting some LSA heads and having them ported, PRC, and better heads like TrickFlow. Each iteration had better flow numbers, I quickly ended up with heads that were a lot more expensive then what I wanted to spend.

I reassessed what I wanted and what would be benefical. LSA'a are stronger than LS3 heads but by the time you get them ported you could buy much better heads like Mast Black Label 295's or Dart Pro1 280's which is what I bought. The 295's have larger LS7 sized valves which I could use since I am going to a 4.125" bore but they use LS7 rockers and I already have a set of YT 6667 rockers which will work on the Darts.

The Darts, as cast, flow good. I will leave the intake as is and port the exhaust. Still considering upping the exhaust valve to 1.75". I will talk with Bischoff on that.

We are at a fortunate time when as cast heads that outflow ported LS3 and LSA heads are available which have 3/4" decks and are less expensive than ported factory heads. Unless you already have the factory heads this is a great way to go.

Now off to figure out valves.

LSconverted

Man you really did your homework! This is great. Could you possibly link me the heads you decided on?

SteveJewels

@LSconverted Handy link to Dart Pro 1 280 LS heads

LSconverted

Thank you Sir! Are you happy with them? Mind if i ask about what they run you?

SteveJewels

You are most welcome.

$1,985 for the pair from Jegs.

The plan is to have the new engine in by April.

old motorhead

How much do you think you'll have in them when completed?

LSconverted

Would you say the heads are set up well for a decent sized cam? I need to look in to what valves/springs come in these. Wondering if they may need like a CHE trunion upgrade or anything. I have no heads at the moment. Even if i source used bare heads by the time they go to the machine shop and add everything they're missing that will easily run me into $2000 territory. I appreciate the help.

SteveJewels

I haven't settled on all the parts yet and I need to get with BES about some head work.

I'll try to remember to post here when I have it figured out.

old motorhead

Ballpark cost? $4,000ish?

SteveJewels

Pretty close.

Have not decided whether or not to use hollow stem intake valves and I need to pick a cam to determine springs.

SteveJewels

The list is looking like this;

Dart Pro1 CNC LS3 Aluminum Cylinder Head [Bare] $1,985.62 Part Number: 301-11030050

Bowl blending and milling $ 500.00

Intake valves
Ferrea 6000 Series 8mm x 2.165 Super Flo LS Intake Valves F6279-8 $ 225.00

Exhaust valves
Ferrea 6000 Series 8mm x 1.600 Super Flo LS Exhaust Valves - 24 Degree F6235-8 $ 211.00

Springs
Manley spring, retainers, and locks kit $ 750.00

Total $3,235

The porting and milling cost is a guess. I'm going to run the intakes as cast and may or may not have the exhausts ported so it may be only bowl blending and some clean up. Milling would be to get to 11:1 compression.

The Manley kit includes Ti retainers, tool steel retainers would be a bit less.

I am also looking at Tony Mamo's MMS26X LS3 heads for $4,575. Cost creep is insidious. I keep reminding myself the purpose of this build is to get me into a forged engine and to do it while I can get a good price for the engine I have and not so I have a maximum effort engine.

The 'splurges' I am looking at are strength/reliability upgrades rather than performance upgrades.

LSconverted

Nice upgrade list!! Thanks for the detail

LSconverted

I found the LS3 heads which i believe to be 821 with lighter intake valves on summit for $843, then i found what i believe to be the truck version of the 6.2 heads 823 for $722 and now i'm seeing the LSA heads complete for $665. A quick search seems like ppl like the LSA heads over the LS3. Does anyone have any input on using the LSA heads over the 821 or 823?

SteveJewels

The LSA heads are rotocast and use better aluminum so they are somewhat more dense and somewhat stronger. They have a 'wing' in the intake which which reduces emissions but I don't think it is a plus for performance and probably a minus. I was going to use LSA heads but I couldn't talk myself into using them without porting them and by the time you do that there are much better as cast options.

The Novi 1500 is the Paxton of the Vortech Ti which I am using. 747 WHP on E85 with cam, springs, rocker trunnions, pushrods and 843 heads and it is limited to 9.5 PSI boost. That is as far as I wanted to push a SBE.

I am having a new engine built and getting new heads because I want to be able to sell the LS3 as a drop-in long block, plus it is an excuse to get better heads since I can up the boost now.

LSconverted

Thanks for the tip. I dont blame you at all, if i were getting a more capable engine i would definitely spring for the best heads i could afford. For the money in the stock as-cast world, maybe the LSA heads are the way to go on the cheap route.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

You want better heads on boosted combos for many reasons.....better parts, stouter castings, better springs and a ton more potential in power output AND reliability (which might save you the cost of an engine).

Running stock LSA heads on a serious performance build....I cringe at the thought.. You are just leaving SOOOO much on the table. Im not just talking about 40 or 50 RWHP which is significant in itself.....Im talking about twice that amount if your running a decent amount of boost

Why bother spending all that money on a blower kit only to handicap it by a 100 HP with poor flowing OEM heads.

There is a major Internet misconception that with boosted engines you don't need good heads to make big power.

The real truth to the situation is boost makes it easy to put up a number that most people can point to and say I made "X"......not really understanding that if they spent money on better flowing heads they could make "X" plus 75 or "X" plus 100 (or even more on more aggressive builds with 15+ PSI).

Boost AMPLIFIES the benefits that more efficient higher flowing heads offer you. Boost is a measurement of restriction....nothing else.....and when your heads flow a bunch more air on intake and exhaust the air the blower is moving is being passed through the heads and into the combustion chamber where it can generate a bunch more cylinder pressure aka power. The better the heads the harder it is to see larger boost numbers as the flow through is there in the heads (requiring more blower speed or a larger blower). Or you opt for less boost to make your target number with a premium set of heads.....less IAT issues.....everything is happier and safer making the power you wanted on 8 PSI instead of 11 or 12.

Think about what the heads really represent.....in simple terms they represent the hallway and the door in (intake port and valve) and the hallway and the door out (exhaust port and valve) of every single combustion event.

You can have the best induction in the world.....a $4000 set of custom headers.....do everything else right but if you don't invest the money in a really effective set of heads none of it will matter....your results will be so so because your "hallway and doorway" became the restriction in the airflow pipeline.

Heads are the foundation of any serious build and every other component is simply aimed at helping them to their job more effectively (camshaft, intake manifold, exhaust, valvetrain etc. etc.).

Also in boosted engines you are making more power and alot more cylinder pressure.....things are happening faster....you NEED premium springs, valves and other components in the valvetrain for both power and reliability.


LSConverted....clearly we spoke recently (based on the pricing you tossed out there which has a $750 Manley spring set-up included, my CNC plus hand finishing (aka "Mamofied") and other premium parts I would have recommended for a boosted build.

Hit me back and I will cut you a break on the parts we discussed but I have some caveats to go along with that.....LOL



Cheers,
Tony

LSconverted

Hey Tony! I appreciate the in depth solution. I may have typed too quickly and didn't make myself clear on what i would be doing with this set up. I do not have any heads at the moment, I'm simply looking to pick up cores, a foundation to start with, from which i can add upgraded springs, rockers, trunnions, a nice set up to handle the cam. I'm not opposed to having them ported in the future, I'm just looking to get the car running on a budget at the moment. We have not spoken about this prior as your post indicated. When i am ready for porting services i wouldn't mind reaching out to you, and i appreciate your guidance.