Should I switch from MS109 to C85/Ignite?
02-15-2019, 10:34 AM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Should I switch from MS109 to C85/Ignite?
I’ve been researching and following everything that I see on here about folks who have made the switch to E85, and I’m in a quandary as to whether I should “bite the corncob” (wait, that don’t sound right
) like everyone else seems to be doing these days...
I’ve been running straight MS109 of late, and the car seems to like that, but I believe there’s some power to be found in making the switch to ethanol - either VP C85 or Ignite (not sure which one).
For those who don’t know, I’m running a SBE LS3 with GM CNC heads, VR PD-1 cam, Kooks 2” and a Heartbeat blower pullied @ 2.5:1 (8” lower, 3.2” upper) making peak boost at right around 12.5 psi. I’m not using meth, and don’t want to either.
I’m currently right about at the limit of what this thing can do, and there’s no easy way for me to add more boost with this blower, as it’s at the limit pulley-wise right now. I’m pushing this thing as hard as anyone has on a C6 and to be honest, I’m liking it, although it would’ve obviously been easier to go the centri route. So, that’s why I’m considering ethanol.
From the last day at the track, IATs are peaking at between 120-129* at the top of third in the 1/8 and I haven’t seen but a momentary trace (<.2*) of KR, ever, and most logs show none at all, with timing set at 16.5* max.
So, for those in the know, given the foregoing, do you think I will see any gains from making the switch, and if so, what would be your guesstimate on RWP/ET I could gain?
We don’t have a dyno around here, but it’s consistently trapping @ 111mph with a 6.3 ET in the 1/8 with the converter unlocked, although I have yet to get it to properly hook on a timed pass (I’m working on suspension settings right now as well), if any of that helps...
Your valuable opinions are greatly appreciated.
) like everyone else seems to be doing these days...I’ve been running straight MS109 of late, and the car seems to like that, but I believe there’s some power to be found in making the switch to ethanol - either VP C85 or Ignite (not sure which one).
For those who don’t know, I’m running a SBE LS3 with GM CNC heads, VR PD-1 cam, Kooks 2” and a Heartbeat blower pullied @ 2.5:1 (8” lower, 3.2” upper) making peak boost at right around 12.5 psi. I’m not using meth, and don’t want to either.
I’m currently right about at the limit of what this thing can do, and there’s no easy way for me to add more boost with this blower, as it’s at the limit pulley-wise right now. I’m pushing this thing as hard as anyone has on a C6 and to be honest, I’m liking it, although it would’ve obviously been easier to go the centri route. So, that’s why I’m considering ethanol.
From the last day at the track, IATs are peaking at between 120-129* at the top of third in the 1/8 and I haven’t seen but a momentary trace (<.2*) of KR, ever, and most logs show none at all, with timing set at 16.5* max.
So, for those in the know, given the foregoing, do you think I will see any gains from making the switch, and if so, what would be your guesstimate on RWP/ET I could gain?
We don’t have a dyno around here, but it’s consistently trapping @ 111mph with a 6.3 ET in the 1/8 with the converter unlocked, although I have yet to get it to properly hook on a timed pass (I’m working on suspension settings right now as well), if any of that helps...
Your valuable opinions are greatly appreciated.
02-15-2019, 12:06 PM
#2
I’ve been researching and following everything that I see on here about folks who have made the switch to E85, and I’m in a quandary as to whether I should “bite the corncob” (wait, that don’t sound right) like everyone else seems to be doing these days...
I’ve been running straight MS109 of late, and the car seems to like that, but I believe there’s some power to be found in making the switch to ethanol - either VP C85 or Ignite (not sure which one).
For those who don’t know, I’m running a SBE LS3 with GM CNC heads, VR PD-1 cam, Kooks 2” and a Heartbeat blower pullied @ 2.5:1 (8” lower, 3.2” upper) making peak boost at right around 12.5 psi. I’m not using meth, and don’t want to either.
I’m currently right about at the limit of what this thing can do, and there’s no easy way for me to add more boost with this blower, as it’s at the limit pulley-wise right now. I’m pushing this thing as hard as anyone has on a C6 and to be honest, I’m liking it, although it would’ve obviously been easier to go the centri route. So, that’s why I’m considering ethanol.
From the last day at the track, IATs are peaking at between 120-129* at the top of third in the 1/8 and I haven’t seen but a momentary trace (<.2*) of KR, ever, and most logs show none at all, with timing set at 16.5* max.
So, for those in the know, given the foregoing, do you think I will see any gains from making the switch, and if so, what would be your guesstimate on RWP/ET I could gain?
We don’t have a dyno around here, but it’s consistently trapping @ 111mph with a 6.3 ET in the 1/8 with the converter unlocked, although I have yet to get it to properly hook on a timed pass (I’m working on suspension settings right now as well), if any of that helps...
Your valuable opinions are greatly appreciated.
) like everyone else seems to be doing these days...I’ve been running straight MS109 of late, and the car seems to like that, but I believe there’s some power to be found in making the switch to ethanol - either VP C85 or Ignite (not sure which one).
For those who don’t know, I’m running a SBE LS3 with GM CNC heads, VR PD-1 cam, Kooks 2” and a Heartbeat blower pullied @ 2.5:1 (8” lower, 3.2” upper) making peak boost at right around 12.5 psi. I’m not using meth, and don’t want to either.
I’m currently right about at the limit of what this thing can do, and there’s no easy way for me to add more boost with this blower, as it’s at the limit pulley-wise right now. I’m pushing this thing as hard as anyone has on a C6 and to be honest, I’m liking it, although it would’ve obviously been easier to go the centri route. So, that’s why I’m considering ethanol.
From the last day at the track, IATs are peaking at between 120-129* at the top of third in the 1/8 and I haven’t seen but a momentary trace (<.2*) of KR, ever, and most logs show none at all, with timing set at 16.5* max.
So, for those in the know, given the foregoing, do you think I will see any gains from making the switch, and if so, what would be your guesstimate on RWP/ET I could gain?
We don’t have a dyno around here, but it’s consistently trapping @ 111mph with a 6.3 ET in the 1/8 with the converter unlocked, although I have yet to get it to properly hook on a timed pass (I’m working on suspension settings right now as well), if any of that helps...
Your valuable opinions are greatly appreciated.
What is the reason for needing it to be out of a barrel and spending 3-4x the price of the pump? These cars are fully flex fuel capable and at least my local pumps have never let me down. Another good route is the go is buy a drum of e98 from a supplier i paid less then $5 a gallon including a barrel picked up to refill that barrel would lower the price since i dont have to pay for it again.
That is about all the input i have I have only ever gone from 93 to e85 on cars never race gas to e85. 93 to e85 is basically a completely new car and in some cases made several hundred whp more but again completely different ball game.
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CI GS (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 01:37 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
IMO you're wasting money, E85 is about 1.80/gal here. Im set up for flex fuel but run E85 fully just because its easy to get (almost at every gas station) Buying from ignite isnt a bad idea but still not necessary. I have tested all my surrounding gas stations and found the one that has the best quality e85 and stick with that station. I also buy E98 from my tuner for $4/gal, I use this for my mile runs just to make me feel better. Im making 800ish at the tire with my twin turbo setup, no meth or anything either. If you have e85 readily available Its definitely the best bang for your buck.
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CI GS (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 02:06 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Like others have said I agree with them. MS109 is a pricey fuel ($12-15 a gallon), I just filled my wife's SS up with e85 for $1.80 a gallon. I would go flex fuel and run pump E. If you're concerned about the % for track days toss some quality ethanol in the car to bump it up to whatever % you want. Even runnnig some Ignite would be a lot cheaper than ms109 and you should make more power.
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CI GS (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 02:29 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Okay, my apologies. I need to explain my circumstances a bit better.
Firstly, I live on an island in the middle of the Caribbean. We do not have E85 here as yet, and only one gas station sells 93 octane E10, which is a waste of time, in my view. Everywhere else sells 89 and 93 octane gasoline.
We do have a local VP dealer and a guy who brings in and sells Ignite, and I could import up to 35 gallons at one time myself without needing an import/storage permit.
There are a few guys around here (mostly turbo 4 cylinder guys) who use pump E85, and they typically get someone they know in Florida to fill up a drum of E85 at a gas station and ship it in down to them, but the quality and ethanol content is all over the place.
As for my car, I don’t even bother to drive it much on the street anymore and usually only drive it to and from the track (I’ve had it for nearly 6 years now and I only put 5000 miles on it).
So, I usually dump a couple of cans of MS109 in it and drive it to the track and race it. MS109 costs CI$90 (US$112.5) per 5 gallon pail, so yeah, it is expensive, but that’s not an issue for me, since I only burn like 7-10 gallons a month anyhow.
I am going to do a flex fuel setup which would give me the ability to use any kind of E-fuel. I’m obviously also going to do the necessary upgrades in terms of injectors and fuel system.
So what I’m looking for is input on what gains I should expect to see going from MS109, which is oxygenated but has no ethanol, to E85 or C85, which is what I’m likely to run it with.
Firstly, I live on an island in the middle of the Caribbean. We do not have E85 here as yet, and only one gas station sells 93 octane E10, which is a waste of time, in my view. Everywhere else sells 89 and 93 octane gasoline.
We do have a local VP dealer and a guy who brings in and sells Ignite, and I could import up to 35 gallons at one time myself without needing an import/storage permit.
There are a few guys around here (mostly turbo 4 cylinder guys) who use pump E85, and they typically get someone they know in Florida to fill up a drum of E85 at a gas station and ship it in down to them, but the quality and ethanol content is all over the place.
As for my car, I don’t even bother to drive it much on the street anymore and usually only drive it to and from the track (I’ve had it for nearly 6 years now and I only put 5000 miles on it).
So, I usually dump a couple of cans of MS109 in it and drive it to the track and race it. MS109 costs CI$90 (US$112.5) per 5 gallon pail, so yeah, it is expensive, but that’s not an issue for me, since I only burn like 7-10 gallons a month anyhow.
I am going to do a flex fuel setup which would give me the ability to use any kind of E-fuel. I’m obviously also going to do the necessary upgrades in terms of injectors and fuel system.
So what I’m looking for is input on what gains I should expect to see going from MS109, which is oxygenated but has no ethanol, to E85 or C85, which is what I’m likely to run it with.
02-15-2019, 05:36 PM
#6
Team Owner
For power the difference will be minimal at best. Really it comes down to cost and if the long term "savings" outweigh what you are going to spend on your current setup. Figure the cost of all the upgrades to run e85, (pumps, injectors, tune, sensor, etc) and figure out if the cost of the fuel comes out ahead for you.
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CI GS (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 08:07 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Thanks unreal. That is what I was fearing. I would need to spend at least another ~$2,000 between a DSX flex fuel sensor and injectors. I have an ECS Stage 1 fuel system already.
The only thing I thought would help me make some more power was the extra oxygen (~32% vs. 9.3%) and the enhanced cooling of the Ethanol.
There’s a video on YouTube where the tuning school guys gained 25whp over MS109 with a 40% C85 mix? (629whp vs. 604whp) on a C7.
Here’s a link to the video:
Not too sure what to make of all that, to be honest...
The only thing I thought would help me make some more power was the extra oxygen (~32% vs. 9.3%) and the enhanced cooling of the Ethanol.
There’s a video on YouTube where the tuning school guys gained 25whp over MS109 with a 40% C85 mix? (629whp vs. 604whp) on a C7.
Here’s a link to the video:
Not too sure what to make of all that, to be honest...
02-15-2019, 08:15 PM
#8
(**** I should have read your post and watched the vid above)
Would the cooling effect of E85 (and the larger quantity required) be any benefit to CS_GS, who's rock never drops below ~75*F?
Might it afford a couple of degrees of timing?
On second thought - Leave your fuel system alone, and I'll ship you a few drums of cold San Francisco Fog
Would the cooling effect of E85 (and the larger quantity required) be any benefit to CS_GS, who's rock never drops below ~75*F?
Might it afford a couple of degrees of timing?
On second thought - Leave your fuel system alone, and I'll ship you a few drums of cold San Francisco Fog
Last edited by Chiselchst; 02-15-2019 at 08:20 PM.
02-15-2019, 08:50 PM
#9
Have you considered a basic plate kit with a small wet shot? The local CTS Vs with that style blower often spray and the cars seem to love even small shots. Well some are not on small shots but those big boats get moving couldnt imagine a similar setup with 1k less pounds to move.
02-15-2019, 10:08 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Have you considered a basic plate kit with a small wet shot? The local CTS Vs with that style blower often spray and the cars seem to love even small shots. Well some are not on small shots but those big boats get moving couldnt imagine a similar setup with 1k less pounds to move.
02-15-2019, 10:11 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
(**** I should have read your post and watched the vid above)
Would the cooling effect of E85 (and the larger quantity required) be any benefit to CS_GS, who's rock never drops below ~75*F?
Might it afford a couple of degrees of timing?
On second thought - Leave your fuel system alone, and I'll ship you a few drums of cold San Francisco Fog
Would the cooling effect of E85 (and the larger quantity required) be any benefit to CS_GS, who's rock never drops below ~75*F?
Might it afford a couple of degrees of timing?
On second thought - Leave your fuel system alone, and I'll ship you a few drums of cold San Francisco Fog
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Chiselchst (02-16-2019)
02-15-2019, 10:41 PM
#12
I already have a N.O. dry shot kit on it, currently with a .031 jet (35hp) in it. I’ve tested it a couple if times, but it tends to break loose even with that small shot. I could easily dial back the timing and have at it with a 75-100 shot, but I want to see what I can get out of it without the nitrous first. I would like to get it down to a 6.2 or 6.1 and then spray it into the 5s, IF I can hook it on our crappy track surface.
There is a easy fix to that then just get a quality nitrous controller and dont spray out of the hole. Different controllers offer different options but you could easily just spray in higher gears or have it slowly add it in over x amount of seconds ect vs a straight hit.
Especially on a car you hardily drive and already are setup for it for the most part i would stop caring about boost only take the easy way out and use the kit to fill the gap.
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CI GS (02-15-2019)
02-15-2019, 11:07 PM
#13
Safety Car
Make the switch. You’ll love it.
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CI GS (02-15-2019)
02-16-2019, 09:20 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
Sammy - time to machine the snout to get a smaller pulley on there!
02-16-2019, 12:15 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I may be able to fit a GripTech 3.05” pulley over the snout, with a smidgen of machining to the inside of the pulley for clearance. I’m actually looking into that. If I can do that, I should be able to gain another couple of psi of boost, at which point E-fuel would definitely be viable...
02-16-2019, 12:27 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
There is a easy fix to that then just get a quality nitrous controller and dont spray out of the hole. Different controllers offer different options but you could easily just spray in higher gears or have it slowly add it in over x amount of seconds ect vs a straight hit.
Especially on a car you hardily drive and already are setup for it for the most part i would stop caring about boost only take the easy way out and use the kit to fill the gap.
Especially on a car you hardily drive and already are setup for it for the most part i would stop caring about boost only take the easy way out and use the kit to fill the gap.
02-16-2019, 08:33 PM
#19
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
That’s the big question. If I had to guess, I would say that my car is only making somewhere around 700whp, so I’m thinking it should be. I intend to run a separate -8AN PTFE fuel line from the auxillary pump all the way up front into a bypass regulator, set at 58psi, with a tee into the fuel rail and run a return line back to the return port on the ECS fuel block. I have all the hose, fittings and regulator for that already. If the AEM 385 pump isn’t enough, I’ll happily upgrade it to a better pump. That’s got to be better than the way it’s set up now., where all fuel is routed through the factory hard line by the tank. I suppose that then the limiting factor will be the fuel rail, which is the same rail that’s on the LS9 motors.