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Even so, I stand by my comment, whether 600, 800, 850, 1100, or 1600rwhp there is no one size fits all blower that makes everyone happy and means their goals like what was implied. Buy what fits your needs the best. If that is a PD blower, buy a PD blower, if that is a F3R then buy a F3R.
Or buy a 4L whipple and cut the cowl/hood. (see PD blower love).
And I am putting a Rousch 2300 (tvs 2300) on my mustang for some PD loving too. Just want a solid ~500rwhp car that doesn't run a huge air/air intercooler blocking the radiator out here.
This wasn't supposed to be a PD vs. centri thread, but of course it ended up turning into one. I've bought, installed, tuned, and lived with both styles of FI on a C6, so I'm about as unbiased as they come.
The PD blowers certainly have their place. Not everyone wants huge power on a street car, and some people like to have useable power under the curve. No, you aren't usually "racing" below 4000 rpm -- but in regular street duty you find yourself well below this most of the time. At least I do. I like having 90% of my max torque available pretty much anywhere.
Back to the real topic....
Both the E-Force and Heartbeat are very nicely put together kits. Fit and finish is very good on both. I haven't installed an E-Force, but a Heartbeat install requires very little cutting, trimming, etc. MUCH less than something like an A&A system.
High IATs are probably the biggest issue that's plagued PD style blowers in the past. Though, my Heartbeat blower keeps the IATs very well in check. A typical 1500-6500 rpm 3rd gear pull only shows IATs rising about 10 degrees. Heat-soaked back to back dyno pulls on a loaded dyno with very little airflow resulted in about a 20 degree IAT rise. It actually made more power on the next dyno pull, and this was with a fully warmed up engine after a 90 mile drive. No power loss, that's for sure.
Going off what I've seen on my own car and what the guys at RPM see on the typical E-Force dyno session, I feel the Heartbeat is superior when it comes to the intercooling system. I also prefer the intake manifold design -- the boost stays flat and consistent. The LS9 fuel rail setup that comes with the Heartbeat is also a nice feature and doesn't have the issues the E-Force does in that area.
Edelbrock is a solid company, but they aren't a blower company like Magnuson. I got a tour of their facility some years back, and saw some things that impressed me. Mainly OEM supercharger projects for Lotus and Toyota.
I'm not sure what pricing is like right now, but when I bought my system, I paid the same or less than a comparable dry-sump E-Force system. I would have paid more for the features the Heartbeat includes, though.
This wasn't supposed to be a PD vs. centri thread, but of course it ended up turning into one. I've bought, installed, tuned, and lived with both styles of FI on a C6, so I'm about as unbiased as they come.
The PD blowers certainly have their place. Not everyone wants huge power on a street car, and some people like to have useable power under the curve. No, you aren't usually "racing" below 4000 rpm -- but in regular street duty you find yourself well below this most of the time. At least I do. I like having 90% of my max torque available pretty much anywhere.
Back to the real topic....
Both the E-Force and Heartbeat are very nicely put together kits. Fit and finish is very good on both. I haven't installed an E-Force, but a Heartbeat install requires very little cutting, trimming, etc. MUCH less than something like an A&A system.
High IATs are probably the biggest issue that's plagued PD style blowers in the past. Though, my Heartbeat blower keeps the IATs very well in check. A typical 1500-6500 rpm 3rd gear pull only shows IATs rising about 10 degrees. Heat-soaked back to back dyno pulls on a loaded dyno with very little airflow resulted in about a 20 degree IAT rise. It actually made more power on the next dyno pull, and this was with a fully warmed up engine after a 90 mile drive. No power loss, that's for sure.
Going off what I've seen on my own car and what the guys at RPM see on the typical E-Force dyno session, I feel the Heartbeat is superior when it comes to the intercooling system. I also prefer the intake manifold design -- the boost stays flat and consistent. The LS9 fuel rail setup that comes with the Heartbeat is also a nice feature and doesn't have the issues the E-Force does in that area.
Edelbrock is a solid company, but they aren't a blower company like Magnuson. I got a tour of their facility some years back, and saw some things that impressed me. Mainly OEM supercharger projects for Lotus and Toyota.
I'm not sure what pricing is like right now, but when I bought my system, I paid the same or less than a comparable dry-sump E-Force system. I would have paid more for the features the Heartbeat includes, though.
I have never installed or owned a heartbeat and have nothing negative to say. Install wise I think they are about the same.
Maybe you can help me out here. I read the Maggie hype about lower iats. In every thread about an install I ask about them and get the "better than an eforce" or " 20 over ambient". For some reason very few actually say what the iats are. Can you please give me some temps that you see in various conditions? If they are much better I would consider a heartbeat at some point, but just can't seem to get any straight info. The few times I have seen iats actually quoted they have been horrible, but they were not on vettes.
Thanks.
Crap crap and more crap... If your happy with 600 hp and want the ability to cook a hamburger or fry eggs on top of your supercharger go ahead and buy the pd blower.
I'm tired of hearing the "must be good if the oems use it". The oems use it because I packages well, it doesn't require the space for a air to air inter cooler, and eaton is a HUGE oem supplier making it a very cost effective option. The longevity argument is silly, I have seen plenty of eaton blowers eat bearings. The ones on the 3800 series engines were awful!
They are no more reliable than a vortech/Paxton/procharger unit when used for the same goals. The guys you hear complaining about blowing up centri superchargers or issues are the guys like me that are spinning the things 10,000rpm over max impeller speed, making 1100hp or more and beating the blower for everything it's worth. And even then usually the engines give out before the blowers.
There is more than one way to skin a cat..
Do your research, spend some time in the c5/6 forced induction sections. You will quickly learn that 99 % of the guys on here with fast cars that actually race and beat their cars are either centrifugal or turbo. And that's a fact. Pd blowers just do not work well in the corvette platform, just not enough room to do it right.
Crap crap and more crap... If your happy with 600 hp and want the ability to cook a hamburger or fry eggs on top of your supercharger go ahead and buy the pd blower.
I'm tired of hearing the "must be good if the oems use it". The oems use it because I packages well, it doesn't require the space for a air to air inter cooler, and eaton is a HUGE oem supplier making it a very cost effective option. The longevity argument is silly, I have seen plenty of eaton blowers eat bearings. The ones on the 3800 series engines were awful!
They are no more reliable than a vortech/Paxton/procharger unit when used for the same goals. The guys you hear complaining about blowing up centri superchargers or issues are the guys like me that are spinning the things 10,000rpm over max impeller speed, making 1100hp or more and beating the blower for everything it's worth. And even then usually the engines give out before the blowers.
There is more than one way to skin a cat..
Do your research, spend some time in the c5/6 forced induction sections. You will quickly learn that 99 % of the guys on here with fast cars that actually race and beat their cars are either centrifugal or turbo. And that's a fact. Pd blowers just do not work well in the corvette platform, just not enough room to do it right.
Good morning....
One of your nicer rants I must say.
Amazing that this thread was never even started about this topic. As someone who has had a good experience with a PD blower, I will say that anyone who wants a fun, reliable street car and likes to go occasionally to the track and have some fun, wont be disappointed with an Eforce.
If you are a serious track junkie looking to go very fast, do yourself a favor and don't start with a vette.
Had my eforce for 4 years now. It has never ever let me down in daily driving, has more power than I can use safely on the street, and has run many, many runs at the track in the 10's. Heat has never been an issue for me in daily use. Even at the track I used to run 5 back to back runs often, always near the same times. 10.6 to 10.8 usually.
Op, you will enjoy an eforce or heartbeat very much for a street car. Don't get put off by guys who mistakenly tried to make a PD blower something it isn't, and were disappointed.
Well if they're the same size then it's all about preference really. Should be asking questions about ease of install, reliability, etc. but I would imagine they're both pretty similar. If a PD blower is the OP's choice then I think he'll be happy with either.
I read the Maggie hype about lower iats. In every thread about an install I ask about them and get the "better than an eforce" or " 20 over ambient". For some reason very few actually say what the iats are. Can you please give me some temps that you see in various conditions? If they are much better I would consider a heartbeat at some point, but just can't seem to get any straight info. The few times I have seen iats actually quoted they have been horrible, but they were not on vettes.
Thanks.
The problem with quoting IAT numbers is (at least in my experience with logging them) that they can change a lot based on a number of things. My heat soaked dyno logs probably don't look great (temps peak at 130 or so on both pulls), but both start around 110 degrees in an 80 degree dyno room.
I did a few 3rd gear logs the other night just trying to fine tune my MAF curve at higher RPM. With a pretty normal coolant and oil temp (170's), my IAT reading was 97 degrees. I made a pull from about 1500 rpm (20 mph) to redline (105 mph), and IATs only went to 109.
If you really want, I can log some normal street driving showing normal IATs, what they reach during a hard pull and recovery time. They are quite good compared to what I've seen from other PD blowers, though.
I don't think I'd spend any money changing from an E-Force to a Heartbeat -- but if starting from scratch and buying one, I'd go with the Heartbeat. My 2 cents anyway.
The problem with quoting IAT numbers is (at least in my experience with logging them) that they can change a lot based on a number of things. My heat soaked dyno logs probably don't look great (temps peak at 130 or so on both pulls), but both start around 110 degrees in an 80 degree dyno room.
I did a few 3rd gear logs the other night just trying to fine tune my MAF curve at higher RPM. With a pretty normal coolant and oil temp (170's), my IAT reading was 97 degrees. I made a pull from about 1500 rpm (20 mph) to redline (105 mph), and IATs only went to 109.
If you really want, I can log some normal street driving showing normal IATs, what they reach during a hard pull and recovery time. They are quite good compared to what I've seen from other PD blowers, though.
I don't think I'd spend any money changing from an E-Force to a Heartbeat -- but if starting from scratch and buying one, I'd go with the Heartbeat. My 2 cents anyway.
Thanks for the input. I don't know what boost or power you are at, but your dyno temps sound about dead on with mine.
The street pull seems lower, but I would have to duplicate it. I usually am at higher engine and iat temps when starting a pull, so obviously would go higher during it.
I agree the change wouldn't be worthwhile, I just wanted to know some actual data because there literature makes it sound like the run much much cooler, and I have yet to see proof that they do.
Thanks again.
Heartbeat dyno numbers trying for first time to post pic. Sorry in advance if this does not work. Put 160 thermostat in and temps never go over 205 now. mostly just under 200
Thanks for the input. I don't know what boost or power you are at, but your dyno temps sound about dead on with mine.
The street pull seems lower, but I would have to duplicate it. I usually am at higher engine and iat temps when starting a pull, so obviously would go higher during it.
I agree the change wouldn't be worthwhile, I just wanted to know some actual data because there literature makes it sound like the run much much cooler, and I have yet to see proof that they do.
Thanks again.
I'm still in the early stages of this build, so it's not being pushed too hard yet. With the 90mm pulley (3.54"), I'm right near the 599hp E-Force kits as far as blower speed goes. As soon as I get around to ordering my meth system, it's getting pullied down some more. A blower cam may be something I'll eventually do as well.
As it sits right now, it's a decent apples to apples comparison to the standard E-Force kits the guys at RPM have had on their dyno. If I remember right, Charlie actually did pre-production tuning for Edelbrock on the E-Force system. So he's had some experience with it. I'm just repeating what they observed compared to what they typically see in their shop, on their loaded dyno.
The strength of the HB intercooler setup seems to be recovery time and better resistance to heat soak. A 90 mile drive followed by 15 minutes of sitting with the hood closed wasn't all that realistic for how I usually drive the car, but I guess it would be a lot like sitting in the staging lanes at the strip. The good news is that it actually picked up power on the second pull (5-10 minutes apart). No power drop off like some of the PD haters love to talk about.
This wasn't supposed to be a PD vs. centri thread, but of course it ended up turning into one. I've bought, installed, tuned, and lived with both styles of FI on a C6, so I'm about as unbiased as they come.
The PD blowers certainly have their place. Not everyone wants huge power on a street car, and some people like to have useable power under the curve. No, you aren't usually "racing" below 4000 rpm -- but in regular street duty you find yourself well below this most of the time. At least I do. I like having 90% of my max torque available pretty much anywhere.
Back to the real topic....
Both the E-Force and Heartbeat are very nicely put together kits. Fit and finish is very good on both. I haven't installed an E-Force, but a Heartbeat install requires very little cutting, trimming, etc. MUCH less than something like an A&A system.
High IATs are probably the biggest issue that's plagued PD style blowers in the past. Though, my Heartbeat blower keeps the IATs very well in check. A typical 1500-6500 rpm 3rd gear pull only shows IATs rising about 10 degrees. Heat-soaked back to back dyno pulls on a loaded dyno with very little airflow resulted in about a 20 degree IAT rise. It actually made more power on the next dyno pull, and this was with a fully warmed up engine after a 90 mile drive. No power loss, that's for sure.
Going off what I've seen on my own car and what the guys at RPM see on the typical E-Force dyno session, I feel the Heartbeat is superior when it comes to the intercooling system. I also prefer the intake manifold design -- the boost stays flat and consistent. The LS9 fuel rail setup that comes with the Heartbeat is also a nice feature and doesn't have the issues the E-Force does in that area.
Edelbrock is a solid company, but they aren't a blower company like Magnuson. I got a tour of their facility some years back, and saw some things that impressed me. Mainly OEM supercharger projects for Lotus and Toyota.
I'm not sure what pricing is like right now, but when I bought my system, I paid the same or less than a comparable dry-sump E-Force system. I would have paid more for the features the Heartbeat includes, though.
I believe that there is no cutting on an install of a Magnuson HB S/C
I believe that there is no cutting on an install of a Magnuson HB S/C
Some minor cutting/drilling is required. The things that come to mind from my install are a couple 1" holes that need to be drilled in the radiator baffle/shroud for the heat exchanger hoses, along with a couple to mount the air intake. If you have a dry-sump car, you also have to cut up and modify your crankcase ventilation lines.
It's very little compared to an A&A kit. I've installed both myself.
Some minor cutting/drilling is required. The things that come to mind from my install are a couple 1" holes that need to be drilled in the radiator baffle/shroud for the heat exchanger hoses, along with a couple to mount the air intake. If you have a dry-sump car, you also have to cut up and modify your crankcase ventilation lines.
It's very little compared to an A&A kit. I've installed both myself.
No problem. It's very minor stuff. If I wanted to return the car to stock with no signs of the blower install, it would just need a new radiator shroud and a couple inexpensive oil tank lines.
On an A&A install, you need to chop up the fan housing, the wheel liner, the bumper cover, hammer down the radiator, grind on the water pump, and maybe a few other things I'm forgetting.
Put 160 thermostat in and temps never go over 205 now. mostly just under 200
A little OT (as if that matters in this thread), but a thermostat has no effect on ultimate operating temps (unless you are driving around the corner to get a 6-pack of beer, I guess). A thermostat's purpose is to warm up the car, not cool it down. It does not change the car's cooling capacity one iota.
A little OT (as if that matters in this thread), but a thermostat has no effect on ultimate operating temps (unless you are driving around the corner to get a 6-pack of beer, I guess). A thermostat's purpose is to warm up the car, not cool it down. It does not change the car's cooling capacity one iota.
Thank you! I've been preaching this forever, whoever started the low t-stat thing must be making a killing lol.
A little OT (as if that matters in this thread), but a thermostat has no effect on ultimate operating temps (unless you are driving around the corner to get a 6-pack of beer, I guess). A thermostat's purpose is to warm up the car, not cool it down. It does not change the car's cooling capacity one iota.
If you don't have the cooling capacity, you're right, it matters little. If you have the cooling capacity, it will run cooler with a cooler 'stat. Plain and simple. Mine runs 175ish as long as I'm moving. With the stock 'stat, it ran closer to 200. I very rarely see anything over 185 even in 90+ degree OAT's.
A little OT (as if that matters in this thread), but a thermostat has no effect on ultimate operating temps (unless you are driving around the corner to get a 6-pack of beer, I guess). A thermostat's purpose is to warm up the car, not cool it down. It does not change the car's cooling capacity one iota.
While a lower temp thermostat doesn't change cooling system capacity or efficiency, it does allow lower coolant temperatures to be maintained if you have an efficient radiator and a means to properly control the fan.
Now, I'm not going to get into whether lower than factory coolant temps are a good or bad thing (that's a whole 'nother matter), but a lower temp thermostat can definitely allow you to have a cooler running engine if the rest of the system supports it.
But you're right -- at 200 degrees, a 160 T-stat isn't doing $hit. The factory fan tables don't allow fan control below low 190's temps, so it doesn't make a ton of sense unless you run something like the 2.5 BAR enhanced OS that includes extended fan tables. I can set mine to come on as low as 163 degrees if I want. Not that I would, but I could.
If you don't have the cooling capacity, you're right, it matters little. If you have the cooling capacity, it will run cooler with a cooler 'stat. Plain and simple. Mine runs 175ish as long as I'm moving. With the stock 'stat, it ran closer to 200. I very rarely see anything over 185 even in 90+ degree OAT's.
07-16-2014, 10:11 PM
