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It isn't "a little" later on, it is a ton. Think $1500+ compared to $200-300 now. Also running a blower at max just limits its life. 700rwhp is spinning the Si-hard and Si don't have the HD bearings like the other units. Plus you will get it back easily in resale. It is MUCH harder to sell an Si-kit than a T/Ti kit. I fell for the Si-trim trap before. Said the same thing you did. Spent 3 months trying to sell my Si-trim so I could buy a bigger blower but no one wants them. Finally sold the whole kit for ~$3500 and bought a brand new kit with the bigger blower because that was the most cost effective way to do it. Landed moving from A&A to ECS and never looked back. I like the ECS design MUCH more.
In the end, waiting 2-3 weeks is nothing compared to the life of the car. I'm sure you can find plenty of vendors too with Ti trims on the shelf.
If you want my opinion I would just order an ECS kit with the Paxton 1500 and call it a day.
Well if anyone wants to swap their T trim (or bigger) for an Si let me know.
I bet you could find a ton of people that would trade from an Si to a T/Ti but are going to be really hard pressed to find anyone going the other way. I've never seen or heard of anyone with a T/Ti say "Geez I wish I had a smaller blower. I need more low end or efficiency and want to downgrade".
Simply put, the $200 upgrade is the biggest bargin in corvette parts I can think of and shouldn't be passed up at the time of purchase. Hell, pay the $200 then ask someone to trade you an Si+$500-600 and make money off the deal.
Why? Because I did what A&A said. They also said no problem and it is a cheap upgrade later. I was expecting $400-500 to swap later, basically they told me I would get ~$800 trade in credit for my Si, and then pay $2500 or whatever it was for a T-trim. To me that wasn't a cheap upgrade later.
I understand.
And then you switched to a custom setup; or at least one with a 10 rib option:
Originally Posted by Unreal
I would never touch a Ysi without a 10 rib cogged DD setup so add $1500 or so to the Ysi if you ever want to do that.
And that's how the money pit starts, right?
And reliability, how about it? If the parts don't break by themselves, then it's just about user error. But you already know this, since you're one of those rare folks which share their experiences in this forum. Which I admire.
But sometimes I may still disagree with you. :-)
For the OP, I still think you will be fine with Si-trim. With a small cam like LS9 and right tune as well as right gearing, it will run over 190 mph at the standing mile.
A&A always recommends the Si trim. Then when I called to get a trade in upgrade price is was something like $1200. Rather have paid the $300 up front like I wanted too, but they talked me out of it.
Do whatever you want, but I've been there, done that along with a ton of others.
I think the T-trim was a good choice for me with my up-front goal of 700 whp, and it certainly would have been for your cammed LS7. For a stock LS3 with only LS7 manifolds? I'm not so sure.
When I bought my A&A system back in 2010, I don't remember getting much of any resistance when I requested a V3 T-trim. I knew what kind of power I wanted to make and what would be needed to put a reliable, fun engine combo together. Those goals were certainly accomplished.
In your case, it would have absolutely made sense to go with something like a YSi out of the gate. Not everyone is looking to make huge numbers, though.
While an Si-trim doesn't have the potential of a T-trim, a 3.4" pulley and stock rev limit will keep it within the recommended blower speed range and still make some good power on an LS3. I'd imagine that 3.4" pulley would make more boost than the OP would like.
Why? Because I did what A&A said. They also said no problem and it is a cheap upgrade later. I was expecting $400-500 to swap later, basically they told me I would get ~$800 trade in credit for my Si, and then pay $2500 or whatever it was for a T-trim. To me that wasn't a cheap upgrade later.
I really pushed to get a T-trim right away, but they kept saying no, keep the Si, it will be better. Well 3 pulls on the dyno and I was ready to swap it out because it was maxed out.
I don't know about your exact experience Unreal, but you seem to be implying some unethical conduct here, so let me give a counter point. In my experience, Andy at A@A is a lot more conservative than some tuners out there who go for sky's-the-limit HP on stock bottom ends.
Andy won't do that. I was at 666 after adding meth, and asked about (another) pulley drop and adding a cam. Andy talked me out of that, a $3000+ upgrade (based on a quote I just got at another respected shop).
The truth is, you can easily get very close to what Andy considers a maximum safe HP tune in a stock LS3 with the Si. As for upgrading, I'll bet most people would get different advice if they initially rolled into A&A with a fully forged motor (was yours forged when you first installed the Si?).
Josh, Andy's shop manager, is very open about what is and isn't usable power on the street. Anything much over 650 RWHP becomes pointless on the street, even with drag radials (most guys who FI do not run 17's in the rear), if you actually want to do anything other than have bragging rights with your neighbors (or get a write up in Vette magazine, with 1/4 ET's conspicuously missing), as many here obviously are guilty of with their 4-digit RWHP and 19" run flats.
I just wanted to say that, in my experience, Andy was fair and honest.
Cheers to FI-ing your cars!
Last edited by Corvettinator; 06-26-2014 at 11:18 AM.
It was the guy before Josh, I forget his name, doesn't work there anymore. Maybe this is why?
Either way, I still think the $200 upgrade to a Ti-trim is the bargain of the year even if you just do it for resale.
If the OP said, he wanted 600 or even 650 I would agree go with Si (assuming never wants to make more) but 700rwhp means pushing the Si to near its limits. I rather see a Ti not ran at its limits and have room for more later. Either way the OP will be happy with the initial install/power, I just hope he doesn't get use to it and then land up paying $1000+ when it comes to swap it out later like many do.
As far as 650rwhp being limit of street tires, I 100% disagree. My 345 ET streets hook 800+ just fine on a warm day. I guess it depends on how you use your car.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by Unreal
If the OP said, he wanted 600 or even 650 I would agree go with Si (assuming never wants to make more) but 700rwhp means pushing the Si to near its limits. I rather see a Ti not ran at its limits and have room for more later. Either way the OP will be happy with the initial install/power, I just hope he doesn't get use to it and then land up paying $1000+ when it comes to swap it out later like many do.
As far as 650rwhp being limit of street tires, I 100% disagree. My 345 ET streets hook 800+ just fine on a warm day. I guess it depends on how you use your car.
I guess I should have been more clear at the beginning. I will most likely be fine with 550-600RWHP, but I wanted to make sure I did have an upgrade path if I decide to do more later. I really don't see wanting any more than 600-650RW as Idon't consider it usable. Personally I don't want to run anything other than sticky street tires (have ZR1 size Michelin ZPs now, might consider Cup ZPs at some point). I've done the drag radial on the street thing before, and I'm not interested in it at present. I like being able to drive the car across country and not worry about getting stuck with a flat, and I don't won't to give up any handling/lateral grip, which running DRs will do.
It was the guy before Josh, I forget his name, doesn't work there anymore. Maybe this is why?
Either way, I still think the $200 upgrade to a Ti-trim is the bargain of the year even if you just do it for resale.
If the OP said, he wanted 600 or even 650 I would agree go with Si (assuming never wants to make more) but 700rwhp means pushing the Si to near its limits. I rather see a Ti not ran at its limits and have room for more later. Either way the OP will be happy with the initial install/power, I just hope he doesn't get use to it and then land up paying $1000+ when it comes to swap it out later like many do.
As far as 650rwhp being limit of street tires, I 100% disagree. My 345 ET streets hook 800+ just fine on a warm day. I guess it depends on how you use your car.
Although I disagree with the original advice of going with a big pulley Ysi (pointless), I can understand the Ttrim upgrade. I myself opted to go with the Ti trim over the Si trim. It is definetly the more powerful blower and you can get it for practically nothing over the Si ($300 for an extra 150hp range is nothing in my opinion).
However, a lot of guys on this forum seem to be obsessed with having the biggest blower (even if they have to run an 8"pulley so as to not grenade their stock internals, clutch, transmission, fuel system etc.), instead of picking a blower that will work efficiently within their HP goals.
OP, if you think you wont be running drag radials, I absolutely guarantee you that an Si is MORE than enough. If you dont plan on upgrading your fuel system, I guarantee the Si is MORE than enough. If you don't plan on forging the engine, the Si is MORE than enough. Need I go on and talk about drivetrain, clutch, fuel system etc?
Dont get caught up in some of the stuff posted on here. Like Silver Bullet C6 posted. An Si can run 9s, which most people will never even experience.
Like Unreal mentioned, there is the possibility of getting "bored" and wanting more. However, if you arent prepared to throw down. Susbstantially more $$$ for the next jump in HP, then why prepare for it paying more now?
I guess I should have been more clear at the beginning. I will most likely be fine with 550-600RWHP, but I wanted to make sure I did have an upgrade path if I decide to do more later. I really don't see wanting any more than 600-650RW as Idon't consider it usable. Personally I don't want to run anything other than sticky street tires (have ZR1 size Michelin ZPs now, might consider Cup ZPs at some point). I've done the drag radial on the street thing before, and I'm not interested in it at present. I like being able to drive the car across country and not worry about getting stuck with a flat, and I don't won't to give up any handling/lateral grip, which running DRs will do.
Like I said in my last post, street tires, you dont need anything more than an Si. Looking over your first post, id take that money you saved from not doing a Ti and do the meth kit now. If not, you will incurr more costs later for another retune.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
Blower is done
Just got the car back this morning:
575RWHP / 525TQ
Very quick & clean install done by QMS (A/F was right at 11.5:1 all the way through the run). The IATs were starting to heat at the end of the run, so a little bit of timing was pulled. On a clean run on a cool day it would probably make an easy 580+. Last dyno before install was 9-10 months back, and was 407/397, so I'm right at the 170 A&A advertises.
Note the upgraded radiator. It's a cut-down Dewitts with integrated oil cooler.
Car is a blast to drive now, loads of power! But it can also drive like stock and sound stock if you're just tooling around. Best of both worlds! Only issue now is I have to remember to put it in Competition Mode if I want all the power, otherwise the TC pulls a lot of it. The nice thing, is that you can leave TC on (for when my wife drives) and it's very similar to stock. Put it in CM or turn TC off, and the car is a BEAST!
You can't tell from the crappy cell phone audio, but I never realized just how loud the NPPs are at WOT in the upper rpm range (or maybe it's because I'm pushing a lot more air through now ).
Congrats OP! Make sure you have some good tires in back. You have a GS, so I'd go with NT05R. When you want a lil more power, put on a meth kit and pulley down a size. In Dallas heat, meth injection makes a BIG difference.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by needcheese
I believe I read somewhere the traction control is done by the brakes and not by fuel or timing.
That hasn't been true for a long time. TC went through a major change in 01 that integrated using the brakes, electronic throttle control and engine management depending on conditions to give the best results. The whole point of going to drive by wire (electronic throttle), was specifically to allow for improved traction control. Current TC is also directly integrated with Active Handling, while Competition Mode disables TC while retaining yaw control.
Anyway, after more time with the car, I'm actually leaving TC on more. It actually does a really good job of keeping the power usable, and varies a good bit depending on available traction. It's definitely faster with TC off, but takes a lot more attention.
06-25-2014, 12:37 PM
