Anyone working on a ZR1-style intercooler for the C6?
I did a search but didn't see anything. Anyone working on a ZR1-style intercooler for the C6? You know, one that doesn't block the radiator so you don't overheat at track days?
Most positive displacement blower already use a system similar to the ZR1. Most centri blower systems use air/air systems which are totally different and much better suited for that application IMO.
The original Vortech kits used an Air/water intercooler but I think even they ditched that design. The only reason the ZR1 and other top mounted supercharged cars use that is because you can't fit anything else in the tight spot between the engine and the blower.
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Originally Posted by Taylor@DallasPerformance
Most positive displacement blower already use a system similar to the ZR1. Most centri blower systems use air/air systems which are totally different and much better suited for that application IMO.
Air/Air intercoolers are much better, period. Two heat exchangers = half the overall intercooling efficiency, plus the weight and additional complexity of having to store coolant and pump it through the whole cooling loop. The only time an air/liquid setup is an advantage is if you want the car to do single short runs where you can supercool the fluid with ice for those few seconds of really cool IATs...
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Originally Posted by Hellspawn
Would this not be a good idea...??? I assume people want to use their superchargers at the track, and manufacturers could just copy the LS9 system...
People do use their superchargers at the track. And Magnacharger has a similar setup to the LS9 if that's what you're after...
Most positive displacement blower already use a system similar to the ZR1. Most centri blower systems use air/air systems which are totally different and much better suited for that application IMO.
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Originally Posted by PowerLabs
The original Vortech kits used an Air/water intercooler but I think even they ditched that design. The only reason the ZR1 and other top mounted supercharged cars use that is because you can't fit anything else in the tight spot between the engine and the blower.
Air/Air intercoolers are much better, period. Two heat exchangers = half the overall intercooling efficiency, plus the weight and additional complexity of having to store coolant and pump it through the whole cooling loop. The only time an air/liquid setup is an advantage is if you want the car to do single short runs where you can supercool the fluid with ice for those few seconds of really cool IATs...
People do use their superchargers at the track. And Magnacharger has a similar setup to the LS9 if that's what you're after...
Pardon my ignorance, I thought that the LS9 system was a better system because the intercoolers didn't block the radiator, allowing for extended track use without overheating? And that centri systems were worse because their intercoolers blocked the radiator... ?
So the Magnacharger intercooler system is the best (heat wise) if you want to do track days?
I know there are some people who track their cars with blowers, but it seems the common wisdom is that staying NA is a much better idea. Yet the ZR1 appears to be fine. That is why I am confused...
Air/Air intercoolers are much better, period. Two heat exchangers = half the overall intercooling efficiency, plus the weight and additional complexity of having to store coolant and pump it through the whole cooling loop. The only time an air/liquid setup is an advantage is if you want the car to do single short runs where you can supercool the fluid with ice for those few seconds of really cool IATs...
Aside from the possibility of < ambient IAT which you mentioned, some of the other benefits of liquid/air IC that are being ignored:
* Shorter air path & less pressure drop
* Much more leeway over packaging & radiator placement allowing optimal air path (fewer bends, larger radius bends, liquid radiator(s) can be placed anywhere with required airflow and routing liquid to them is significantly less challenging)
* Ability to run a liquid flow rate that is optimal for the radiating components used
Aside from the possibility of < ambient IAT which you mentioned, some of the other benefits of liquid/air IC that are being ignored:
* Shorter air path & less pressure drop
* Much more leeway over packaging & radiator placement allowing optimal air path (fewer bends, larger radius bends, liquid radiator(s) can be placed anywhere with required airflow and routing liquid to them is significantly less challenging)
* Ability to run a liquid flow rate that is optimal for the radiating components used
Very good points! i think it would be a nice idea to use something like a KB lower intake manifold with a much thicker charge cooler core. the hight shouldn't be any more than a Maggy but with MUCH better cooling. you would obviously you will need a very larger heat exchange to remove the heat.
Pardon my ignorance, I thought that the LS9 system was a better system because the intercoolers didn't block the radiator, allowing for extended track use without overheating? And that centri systems were worse because their intercoolers blocked the radiator... ?
So the Magnacharger intercooler system is the best (heat wise) if you want to do track days?
I know there are some people who track their cars with blowers, but it seems the common wisdom is that staying NA is a much better idea. Yet the ZR1 appears to be fine. That is why I am confused...
It's a trade-off. A top mount intercooler will not block the radiator, but it will also not work as well as a big front-mount.
First of all, top-mounts are typically smaller and less efficient and secondly they're sandwiched between a HOT engine and a HOT blower.
As a result, you're going to have overall higher IATs than with a front mount.
The well-established C6 kits (ECS Paxton and A&A Vortech particularly) have a lot of thought put into their intercooler designs to prevent overheating.
Are they an optimal choice for open track events? probably not but it's not like everyone who takes their blower car out on the track overheats.
Remember that non-Z06 C6s rely on the air dam under the car to grab air and direct it UP over the radiator, not through the nose.
I can't recall ever seeing a top-mount that would mate to a centri blower setup for a C6. There isn't really any place to put such a thing because of the fact that on a ZR1, the blower/heat exchanger replace the intake manifold.
I know Vortech makes something called an Aftercooler that typically sits near the top of the engine compartment in most applications but I can't say how well they work or if it would even be possible to fit one in a C6 engine compartment.
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Aside from the possibility of < ambient IAT which you mentioned, some of the other benefits of liquid/air IC that are being ignored:
* Shorter air path & less pressure drop
* Much more leeway over packaging & radiator placement allowing optimal air path (fewer bends, larger radius bends, liquid radiator(s) can be placed anywhere with required airflow and routing liquid to them is significantly less challenging)
* Ability to run a liquid flow rate that is optimal for the radiating components used
All good points... But the real problem is that no heat exchanger is 100% efficient, in fact, you'd be lucky to see 80% efficiency from a good one.
So, when you have a heat exchanger under the blower, being chilled by another heat exchanger in front of the car, at best, you might get 64% intercooling effiicency (80% * 0.8), and that is making the assumption you can get the small intercoolers underneath the supercharger to reach 80% efficiency in the first place, which is virtually impossible once the coolant starts getting hot.
64% intercooling efficiency is pretty terrible. When you add that to the fact that top mounted superchargers are already not very efficient to begin with (meaning they start out with very hot air, and then can't cool it very efficiently) , it starts to become clear why big power numbers from those kits are not as common.
It's a trade-off. A top mount intercooler will not block the radiator, but it will also not work as well as a big front-mount.
First of all, top-mounts are typically smaller and less efficient and secondly they're sandwiched between a HOT engine and a HOT blower.
As a result, you're going to have overall higher IATs than with a front mount.
So the ZR1 intercooler system is not any better than the centri setups? I thought the ZR1 system was able to handle sustained track use without overheating much better than C6's with aftermarket blowers/intercoolers?
So the ZR1 intercooler system is not any better than the centri setups? I thought the ZR1 system was able to handle sustained track use without overheating much better than C6's with aftermarket blowers/intercoolers?
So the ZR1 intercooler system is not any better than the centri setups? I thought the ZR1 system was able to handle sustained track use without overheating much better than C6's with aftermarket blowers/intercoolers?
I think you're thinking about it wrong. The intercooler type is dictated by the blower type. You can't use a ZR1 intercooler with a centrifugal supercharger.
Positive displacement superchargers use a heat exchanger that's sandwiched between the blower and the engine. A centrifugal blower uses some type of INLINE intercooler, either air to air or water to air since it is connected to the engine by charge piping, rather than bolted directly to it.
What I think you're trying to ask is "does anyone make an aftermarket intercooler that is NOT mounted in front of the radiator? or even MORE simply put, "which is better for open tracking, a positive displacement or a centrifugal blower."
The ZR1 is a factory car that took MILLIONS of dollars for GM to develop. Like any factory car it's going to be produced with reliability in mind.
You can't simply bolt a "ZR1" style intercooler to a blown corvette and get a car that will necessarily be as reliable as a factory ZR1.
Is the ZR1 intercooler better in the sense that it doesn't involve the radiator? yes.....However, is it a BETTER intercooler? No.
While the airflow to the radiator is better without a front-mount (again though, much of the air comes from the bottom of the car, not the front) you end up with a BITCHING HOT blower (blowing air that's HOTTER after the IC than the air coming out of a big front mount) stuck to the engine like a giant heat sink. As a result, the cooling system has to work harder ANYWAY.
There is always a compromise between cooling the engine and cooling the intake charge. LPE uses a water/air intercooler sitting up high with a small heat exchanger for their twin turbo kits. They faced the same heat issues when putting a large core air/air intercooler directly in front of the radiator. It's a thick brick! With the smaller heat exchanger, the radiator does it's job more efficiently and keeps the car cool on the track. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just 2 options trying to achieve the same goal.
Like the ZR1, once the water in the intercooling system gets hot, IAT's rise and timing is pulled. The car will make less power, but the engine will stay cooler. It's all compromises when dealing with a street application and trying to have a track capable package. I'd rather run an air/air for the street if I could keep the motor cool. BUT, using a large reservoir and having the ability to add ice help offset some of the negatives of water/air.
using a large reservoir and having the ability to add ice help offset some of the negatives of water/air.
Yeah, for about 20 seconds untill the ice melts. Then that under hood coolant reservoir goes right back to getting incredibly hot.
That heat exchanger is right in front of the radiator, just like any other front mounted intercooler. Everyone talks about "not blocking the radiator". Tell me how that is any different; I can't see the radiator on that car because it is behind a part of the intercooling system too...
Yeah, for about 20 seconds untill the ice melts. Then that under hood coolant reservoir goes right back to getting incredibly hot.
My IAT's beg to differ..
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Originally Posted by PowerLabs
That heat exchanger is right in front of the radiator, just like any other front mounted intercooler. Everyone talks about "not blocking the radiator". Tell me how that is any different; I can't see the radiator on that car because it is behind a part of the intercooling system too...
If you can't see it, it must be the same airflow... Right? For a mechanical engineer, your critical thinking and objectivity is lacking.
Placing a 3-4" thick brick in front of your radiator is not the same as placing a small heat exchanger.
As I said BEFORE, these are 2 options that both have their pros/cons. There is a reason that water/air makes sense in some applications. I appreciate the stable IAT's and ability to supercool my inlet temps. Air/Air is a great street setup that will provide consistent cooling if you can keep engine coolant temps under control.
I have quite a few turbo/diesel engines on my farm. Most are air/coolant aftercooled. Air goes through the turbo, is compressed, and then goes through a coolant cooled intake manifold. The intake manifold is cooled by coolant out of the radiator (no separate system). Coolant comes out of the radiator on the "cool" side and goes to this manifold first as well as the rest of the motor. The intercooler gets the coolest of the coolant coming out of the radiator. That being said, the "coolest" isn't any cooler than 180 degrees.
What amazed me was how cool the air coming out of the intake manifold/intercooler was before going in to the motor. The engine was running at 190 degrees and yet the air coming out of the intercooler was cool to the touch. I can't say how cool it was, but I know it was way cooler than 190 degrees. I guess there are some engineering principles here that are above my shallow level. Probably similar to the way a carb on an airplane can freeze up in warm weather.
Anyway, I thought this was relevant to this discussion.
I have quite a few turbo/diesel engines on my farm. Most are air/coolant aftercooled. Air goes through the turbo, is compressed, and then goes through a coolant cooled intake manifold. The intake manifold is cooled by coolant out of the radiator (no separate system). Coolant comes out of the radiator on the "cool" side and goes to this manifold first as well as the rest of the motor. The intercooler gets the coolest of the coolant coming out of the radiator. That being said, the "coolest" isn't any cooler than 180 degrees.
All the ones I've seen on big Semis and on diesel pickups had air/air intercoolers... Here's one on a Dodge:
Quote:
Originally Posted by old motorhead
What amazed me was how cool the air coming out of the intake manifold/intercooler was before going in to the motor. The engine was running at 190 degrees and yet the air coming out of the intercooler was cool to the touch. I can't say how cool it was, but I know it was way cooler than 190 degrees.
Well, I am going to guess that since you were able to touch it, the engine was idling and not under any load... Since air only heats up when it is compressed,and the engine was not seeing any boost at all, it is not surprizing that the air was coming out cold...
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Anyone working on a ZR1-style intercooler for the C6?
Always wanted to do that popcorn thing......
