What would it take for one of the tuners to develop a FI kit for weekend HPDE warriors? It doesn't have to be 1000 rwhp, or anything crazy. Just develop a full kit with everything necessary to run hard on a hot day at a road course for .5 hour at a time and NOT overheat? Include everything needed: vented hood?, new radiator, new water pump? ???
Am I asking for too much? Is it breaking the law of physics? Would an STS fit the bill?
I understand there are multiple factors to having a cool running engine under road course conditions regardless of FI or NA, my question is based on the fact that a single turbo Supra with 600-700 rwhp can run for a half hour HARD on the road course without any issues, but when I ask tuners if it's possible with a FI Vette, they say basically it's not. All of the searches on the forums support this positions.
I wouldn't mind running 100 octane for the HPDE session (the Supras are when they are running over 550rwhp).
Is it just a losing proposition that will just suck up money trying this and that, and never end up being reliable?
Location: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5&C6 609-752-0321
We have several customers who run our kit during lower level HPDE's, with the right radiator and oil cooler temps stay fine even with high hp cars, but if you work your way through the classes to the advanced groups you will understand why NA is better. It's not that you cant, it's that the car is easier to balance and basically keep happy NA over FI when your really pushing it to the edge.
We have several customers who run our kit during lower level HPDE's, with the right radiator and oil cooler temps stay fine even with high hp cars, but if you work your way through the classes to the advanced groups you will understand why NA is better. It's not that you cant, it's that the car is easier to balance and basically keep happy NA over FI when your really pushing it to the edge.
That is very cool info. Do you guys keep the FMIC on? How do you feel the new BD will due on the track given that it will be supercharged?
Superchargers are heat creating beasts. The manufacturers NEED to develop their kit to include all of the necessary components to deal with the unbelievably hot temps created by these units. Even with a high capacity radiator and small tranny cooler I was seeing 245+ degree oil temps and close to 240 degree tranny temps, all while cruising at 60mph on the highway with the A/C on.....not good! When I was N/A, 180 coolant, 185 oil & 170 tranny were the norms.
Location: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5&C6 609-752-0321
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaponsGradeTorque
That is very cool info. Do you guys keep the FMIC on? How do you feel the new BD will due on the track given that it will be supercharged?
Yes, we do not vary the kit for different applications. Overheating always has to be a major concern.
I was surprised they were making the BD supercharged, but I guess they are competing with the GT. The boost levels will be low enough from a production car that it shouldn't matter, but I highly doubt you will see the factory race team going FI, but who knows.
Location: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5&C6 609-752-0321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pewtavert
Superchargers are heat creating beasts. The manufacturers NEED to develop their kit to include all of the necessary components to deal with the unbelievably hot temps created by these units. Even with a high capacity radiator and small tranny cooler I was seeing 245+ degree oil temps and close to 240 degree tranny temps, all while cruising at 60mph on the highway with the A/C on.....not good! When I was N/A, 180 coolant, 185 oil & 170 tranny were the norms.
Do you have the ATI kit that blocks 1/3rd of the radiator with the air filter? If so....
Superchargers are heat creating beasts. The manufacturers NEED to develop their kit to include all of the necessary components to deal with the unbelievably hot temps created by these units. Even with a high capacity radiator and small tranny cooler I was seeing 245+ degree oil temps and close to 240 degree tranny temps, all while cruising at 60mph on the highway with the A/C on.....not good! When I was N/A, 180 coolant, 185 oil & 170 tranny were the norms.
On the highway, I ran around 180* with the A/C on, on a summer day. Maybe you can try what I did: I moved my FMIC forward 1" for air space, use a DeWitts radiator, and 160* Tstat. Only when I really step on it does it heat up, like during HPDEs.
On the highway, I ran around 180* with the A/C on, on a summer day. Maybe you can try what I did: I moved my FMIC forward 1" for air space, use a DeWitts radiator, and 160* Tstat. Only when I really step on it does it heat up, like during HPDEs.
Are you able to go a full session without it overheating the coolant or oil, or both?
Running only 5 lbs of boost, the most I've seen on my Z is 210 oil and 210 coolant, normally I get 203 to 205 on under normal driving. I will be taking that car to Willow as soon as I get some time. If it gets too hot, I will switch to a DeWitts.
My 03 runs close to 11 psi of boost, so it gets considerably higher oil temps, 260+ range under hard driving however the coolant stays at 210during hard running. As soon as I can keep the oil at 210 or so, I'll be happy.
I understand that NA is the absolute best way to go for a racecar, but for HPDEs where you run 20 to 30 minutes at a time, I don't see why a well thought out system would over heat. Reach out to jbsblownC5, he's been road racing his 99 forever with no overheating issues.
I guess since I have experience with time trialing a supercharged car I'll chime in. First of all my car overheated at Laguna Seca when it was bone stock, so these cars from the factory will overheat when driven hard. Even if you do a h/c car with 490rwhp you'll have heat issues.
The first thing to look at is airflow. While those big intercoolers look cool and work well for cooling the incoming air, you are short changing yourself airflow to the AC condenser and the radiator more importantly. I personally think that the A&A intercooler design is best for time trialing. (ECS is top notch and I have no idea about their intercooler setup) I also believe you can order the procharger with twin intercoolers. If turbos are your thing the APS twin intercooler setup is the way to go. I would keep the stock cubes with APS though because you don't want to overspin the turbos. Or get the LS7 setup.
While turbos are more efficient they are heat monsters. The centrifugal has better adiabatic efficiency. Also it's important on the centrifugals to have the airflow in the best efficiency part of the boost map. If you want to run 15lbs of boost I would say you are asking too much. Turbos are so cool though since they're quiet it might be worth it.
Then you start with cooling. So say you blocked 3/5ths of your radiator airflow. Where do you put the tranny cooler(TOC) and oil cooler (EOC)? They sell radiators with the TOC and EOC intergrated but then you are reducing the effectiveness of the radiator(not sure if this is accurate). This is a good place to start though. Heat extractor hoods, meth/alky will also help.
I used one at Infineon and my temps did elevate too much after about 15 minutes so I did a cool down lap, pulled into the hot pits to check my tire temps. You basically check inside middle and outside tire temps to see how your suspension setup and tire pressures are working. Then went back out and it was fine.
The next morning, while it was still cool outside, upper 70s the car was able to stay cool while hammering on it for 20 minutes straight. My tranny overheated because it was an auto but manual won't have the same difficulties. Now I have a manual car. My temps were about 225/250 toward the end. Well within acceptable ranges. Once the sun bakes the track and tons of cars heat it up the air coming up off the track is probably over 100 degrees so that's not helping.
I'll probably go with a radiator setup with integrated TOC. Then see how the manual tranny does. Maybe put the EOC somewhere else with an electric fan. I've heard you lose oil pressure with huge oil coolers though. If that isn't enough I'll look at using a Porsche AC condenser somewhere and ditch the stock one. That should be enough to run 15-20 minutes hard no problem. After that my Hoosiers start to fall off and I'm just using up valueable rubber. Don't know of any HPDEs that run 30 mins.
Methanol/Water inj is sweet but the idea of my engine going boom if I runout is too much to worry about. I'm lazy and don't feel like taking a gas bottle full of methanol with me to the track. Water works just as well for cooling but people like meth better since you can use it to make power. Obviously the heat extractor hood can only help. The fatter your tune is the cooler it will run too.
I run my car super hard and bounce it off the rev limiter regularly. You can short shift the car and be fine. If you are just in HPDE 1 or 2 you should be fine with a supercharger. If you run it really hard you'll need an radiator, TOC and EOC setup when it's very hot out.
This is my opinion so your results may vary. I usually consult Randy from Doug Rippie Motorsports about my decisions. You may want to call DRM for more advice. Also my local tuner MSI that does some of my installs has run supercharged track cars for years.
I'll keep you updated about what it takes to maintain temps. Hoping the radiator does the trick. For me it's worth it to have over 500rwhp to give up the last 5 minutes of a session with stock cooling
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Will someone make a FI kit suitable for HPDE?
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Hey Mike Erickson, give me a call.
