It looks like GM will go into bankruptcy. I know the GM dealers have the service equipment but can they remain open with no cars to sell? And how will the public react to having no warranty on a brand new $130k+ ZR-1? Or any other GM car....
It looks like GM will go into bankruptcy. I know the GM dealers have the service equipment but can they remain open with no cars to sell? And how will the public react to having no warranty on a brand new $130k+ ZR-1? Or any other GM car....
Chapter 7 = no warranty
Chapter 11 = warranty
I think we will always see a GM but certainly not the same GM.
Eric
If GM files for bankruptcy, that doesn't necessarily mean there won't be cars to sell or warranties. If it occurs, hopefully it can be done in a way that allows business to continue and customers to be served.
As in many legal matters, the devil is often in the details...
The only benefit to GM may be the elimination of what destroyed that organization...labor unions. Although the unions were initially well intended, their time has come and gone. Unfortunately the average auto worker had very little to do with what the union bosses have gotten them into. This economy will turn around if the government will just quit spending like nuts on "extras" right now like 600 billion down payment on a "new" healthcare system. Unbelievable....
I'm ready to purchase a new Z06 but I'm feeling a little hesitant without any warranty!. I hope something happens soon becuase I am itching to get a new one. I agree also that the unions are out of control, they were needed in the old days however in this day how can we pay 60-70 dollars an hour for a line worker, when a college graduate with a degree in computer enginering makes less. Just my thoughts not ment to insult anyone.
I'm ready to purchase a new Z06 but I'm feeling a little hesitant without any warranty!. I hope something happens soon becuase I am itching to get a new one. I agree also that the unions are out of control, they were needed in the old days however in this day how can we pay 60-70 dollars an hour for a line worker, when a college graduate with a degree in computer enginering makes less. Just my thoughts not ment to insult anyone.
If you look at the report that GM presented to the government, a third party consultant confirmed that GM does not pay anymore than the other manufacturers.
Read the report, it like 70 pages, but it is interesting.
The only benefit to GM may be the elimination of what destroyed that organization...labor unions. Although the unions were initially well intended, their time has come and gone. Unfortunately the average auto worker had very little to do with what the union bosses have gotten them into.
I agree with your comments about the union, but I have to add that GM cannot lay the entire blame there. Management was more than happy to work some of those contracts and got fat, dumb, lazy and happy. The same managment team is in place that came up with the add campaign a few years ago, "have you taken another look at GM lately?" That campaign was an attempt to get people to come back and look at aging vehicle lines that people had already turned away from. Instead of seeing the product isn't what people wanted, they just tried to force the crap down on us. Didn't work. Even now, GM has a good line up but the new vehicles are pigs...overweight in every catagory. GM has more engineering capability, but still can't produce a class leader......oooppps, the Corvette team is capable of producing a class leader, but GM keeps trying to kill it......says a lot about the mentality at the top.....My bet, my 9 year old could run the company better. Wagoneer needs to take the wagon, Lutz is and will continue to be a putz(1 claim to fame....qualified to run a company...NOT), and the rest of them need to go with them. Time for new managment, new union contracts(better yet, no union!!) and less government interference(35 mpg CAFE.....what a bunch of CRAP!!!, tax the gas higher, but don't force the coporation....free markets....whatever).
The more comments I read, the more I wonder how many of you really know what is going on. MOST car companies world wide are in extreme pain due, in no small part, to the lack of credit and the fear that many of us are living with these days. It is not only GM and Chrysler, but Toyota and Honda and BMW etc. are all having troubles.
First, bankruptcy. A structured reorganization (Chapter 11 - someone noted this above) would allow for an orderly transition and significant reworking of contracts without putting suppliers down for the count. That is a critical point because the suppliers in many ways are more relevant than one or two car companies. They make parts for everyone, both US and non-US manufacturers. Without cash flow, these companies will whither and die. A structured bankruptcy will keep these guys afloat and further rework union contracts. I feel very sorry for autoworkers who are getting schlonged and about to be hit worse. Imagine working your whole life for a company and then having everything you expected suddenly disappear. That sucks.
To understand the unions, you need to have some historical perspective. Way back in the day, really only a couple of decades ago, health care costs were an afterthought because premiums were low. Most companies, large and small, provided cheap, quality health care to their employees both during an employees tenure as a worker and in retirement. In the last 25 years, give or take, health care costs have exploded for a host of reasons, some good, some bad. What also happened was a very long period of production growth, with a few recessions in between. The continued growth allowed for all sorts of stupid decision making on the part of management. While I agree totally about the ineptness of our car companies' management, some of what happened was not their fault. They had no way of knowing until it was too late what the costs of some of these benefits really would be. Also, in good times, which they mostly had, the now infamous two year "training programs" when auto workers were out of a job were rather untypical. To say GM doesn't pay more than other manufacturers (Toyota, Honda?) suggests that you don't understand legacy costs.
What arrogant management did not anticipate until it is was too late was that European and Japanese cars would cut into their market in the good old USA. Then a second thing happened - cars started lasting a whole lot longer. It used to be that you bought a car every couple of years to avoid problems with older cars. Now, 150K miles on an engine with almost no maintenance is SOP.
What arrogant management also did not anticipate was gas at $4 a gallon. Enjoy it while you can, but in a few years, once this recession clears itself out, gas prices are going up. Production costs continue to go up as oil becomes harder to get and the only thing keeping costs down now is lack of demand, pure and simple. So what did the boys do, kept making bigger and bigger SUV's so the freaking soccer moms could T-bone you with their escalades while they BS with other soccer moms. Management at GM, Ford and Chrysler has a history of being reactive, not proactive, and it put us down the proverbial rathole. Small cars are the wave of the future, and the wave is upon us. Electric cars are also the wave of the future. Things change - that is the way it is. As a country, using wind, solar and nuclear power, we can eliminate a lot of our hydrocarbon-based fuel consumption. To me that is a good thing. You can still have performance, but in much smaller car. Small cars are a blast to drive. There is a reason F1 cars weigh 1400 pounds with the driver.
Quality is another issue. Consumers' Reports is about as objective as it gets. Yeah, yeah, they can't tell a ZR1 from a Carrera, but they do evaluate brand quality, and if you look where US companies stand, they are on the bottom. You can argue the point, but they at least get feedback on trouble by their readership. Who else does?
As far as the bailout, our government seems to be largely clueless. Obama has taken an election which was a vote against a failed presidency and used it as his mantra for out of control spending and wealth reapportionment. As bad as Obama is, all you need to do is look at the growth of debt when republican's were at the helm. As a fiscal conservative, it made me sick. From my perspective, the Feds need to stabilize the credit markets. Once the banks can lend, credit will flow and people may actually start buying a few things. That is not an easy thing to do as real estate is tied in tightly, and there our problems are a long way away from resolution - look at the commercial market in real estate if you doubt me. With all these people out of work, that equates to a lot of vacant space for rent. Wall Street feels very uncomfortable, as they should, with the "messiah" calling for tax increases on individuals and corporations in the middle of a recession. He doesn't get it. Guess community organizers don't get lots of training in the real financial world. He is smooth and a great speaker and people are fed up with eight years of garbage, but if things don't quickly improve, he's a one termer. I would bet the dems will lose seats in droves in the house and the senate in the interim election. As I get older, my disdain for politicians on both sides of the aisle gets stronger and stronger.
As for the future of the corvette, to me it is very iffy. The cars are selling at too low a rate to keep the factory open for very long. At 11 cars an hour, you make about 440 cars a week or slightly over 20,000 cars a year. However, market absorption is under 10,000 cars a year. Do the math. Plus, the C6 is getting long in the tooth and very few people can afford ZR1's. Z06's are sitting on dealer lots by the thousand. Draw your own conclusions.
Bottom line is GM looks all but dead.... the question I wonder is if they would be willing to sell the Corvette Brand to any willing purchaser or if it will become post mortum. It would be hard to imagine the world without the Corvette name plate!!
The more comments I read, the more I wonder how many of you really know what is going on. MOST car companies world wide are in extreme pain due, in no small part, to the lack of credit and the fear that many of us are living with these days. It is not only GM and Chrysler, but Toyota and Honda and BMW etc. are all having troubles.
First, bankruptcy. A structured reorganization (Chapter 11 - someone noted this above) would allow for an orderly transition and significant reworking of contracts without putting suppliers down for the count. That is a critical point because the suppliers in many ways are more relevant than one or two car companies. They make parts for everyone, both US and non-US manufacturers. Without cash flow, these companies will whither and die. A structured bankruptcy will keep these guys afloat and further rework union contracts. I feel very sorry for autoworkers who are getting schlonged and about to be hit worse. Imagine working your whole life for a company and then having everything you expected suddenly disappear. That sucks.
To understand the unions, you need to have some historical perspective. Way back in the day, really only a couple of decades ago, health care costs were an afterthought because premiums were low. Most companies, large and small, provided cheap, quality health care to their employees both during an employees tenure as a worker and in retirement. In the last 25 years, give or take, health care costs have exploded for a host of reasons, some good, some bad. What also happened was a very long period of production growth, with a few recessions in between. The continued growth allowed for all sorts of stupid decision making on the part of management. While I agree totally about the ineptness of our car companies' management, some of what happened was not their fault. They had no way of knowing until it was too late what the costs of some of these benefits really would be. Also, in good times, which they mostly had, the now infamous two year "training programs" when auto workers were out of a job were rather untypical. To say GM doesn't pay more than other manufacturers (Toyota, Honda?) suggests that you don't understand legacy costs.
What arrogant management did not anticipate until it is was too late was that European and Japanese cars would cut into their market in the good old USA. Then a second thing happened - cars started lasting a whole lot longer. It used to be that you bought a car every couple of years to avoid problems with older cars. Now, 150K miles on an engine with almost no maintenance is SOP.
What arrogant management also did not anticipate was gas at $4 a gallon. Enjoy it while you can, but in a few years, once this recession clears itself out, gas prices are going up. Production costs continue to go up as oil becomes harder to get and the only thing keeping costs down now is lack of demand, pure and simple. So what did the boys do, kept making bigger and bigger SUV's so the freaking soccer moms could T-bone you with their escalades while they BS with other soccer moms. Management at GM, Ford and Chrysler has a history of being reactive, not proactive, and it put us down the proverbial rathole. Small cars are the wave of the future, and the wave is upon us. Electric cars are also the wave of the future. Things change - that is the way it is. As a country, using wind, solar and nuclear power, we can eliminate a lot of our hydrocarbon-based fuel consumption. To me that is a good thing. You can still have performance, but in much smaller car. Small cars are a blast to drive. There is a reason F1 cars weigh 1400 pounds with the driver.
Quality is another issue. Consumers' Reports is about as objective as it gets. Yeah, yeah, they can't tell a ZR1 from a Carrera, but they do evaluate brand quality, and if you look where US companies stand, they are on the bottom. You can argue the point, but they at least get feedback on trouble by their readership. Who else does?
As far as the bailout, our government seems to be largely clueless. Obama has taken an election which was a vote against a failed presidency and used it as his mantra for out of control spending and wealth reapportionment. As bad as Obama is, all you need to do is look at the growth of debt when republican's were at the helm. As a fiscal conservative, it made me sick. From my perspective, the Feds need to stabilize the credit markets. Once the banks can lend, credit will flow and people may actually start buying a few things. That is not an easy thing to do as real estate is tied in tightly, and there our problems are a long way away from resolution - look at the commercial market in real estate if you doubt me. With all these people out of work, that equates to a lot of vacant space for rent. Wall Street feels very uncomfortable, as they should, with the "messiah" calling for tax increases on individuals and corporations in the middle of a recession. He doesn't get it. Guess community organizers don't get lots of training in the real financial world. He is smooth and a great speaker and people are fed up with eight years of garbage, but if things don't quickly improve, he's a one termer. I would bet the dems will lose seats in droves in the house and the senate in the interim election. As I get older, my disdain for politicians on both sides of the aisle gets stronger and stronger.
As for the future of the corvette, to me it is very iffy. The cars are selling at too low a rate to keep the factory open for very long. At 11 cars an hour, you make about 440 cars a week or slightly over 20,000 cars a year. However, market absorption is under 10,000 cars a year. Do the math. Plus, the C6 is getting long in the tooth and very few people can afford ZR1's. Z06's are sitting on dealer lots by the thousand. Draw your own conclusions.
Sorry about the rant.
Just the facts! You have a balanced, factual view of the past 3 decades of how we all have collectively set ourselves up for a big fall...a true centrist opinion. I too am soooooo tired of the Washington blame game...cant stand to listen to anything in the mainstream media anymore. So, have you ever thought about running for political office??
It's good to see all the good thoughts and comments in this thread so far. We built an industrial superpower from the late 1890s thru 1970s...since then we've only been mortgaging our future by pumping huge amounts of credit into a system that can no longer sustain these spending levels. The new spending that is being proposed in Washington the last six months may be short term fix, but I have my doubts. I believe we will only set us all up for an even bigger fall in the not to distant future if it works at all.
I hate the thought of this, but if something significant for the better doesn't happen in the next 6 months, 2010 will be the last year for Corvette...at least as we know it. Not sure about the numbers, but looking at the Jeff Hardy Corvette locator, less than 1000 cars were sold since the December 23 shutdown. If this trend does not change by the end of this Summer....I just don't see how production can be sustained at any level.
Last edited by Beechdoctor; 03-08-2009 at 08:43 PM.
The more comments I read, the more I wonder how many of you really know what is going on. MOST car companies world wide are in extreme pain due, in no small part, to the lack of credit and the fear that many of us are living with these days. It is not only GM and Chrysler, but Toyota and Honda and BMW etc. are all having troubles.
First, bankruptcy. A structured reorganization (Chapter 11 - someone noted this above) would allow for an orderly transition and significant reworking of contracts without putting suppliers down for the count. That is a critical point because the suppliers in many ways are more relevant than one or two car companies. They make parts for everyone, both US and non-US manufacturers. Without cash flow, these companies will whither and die. A structured bankruptcy will keep these guys afloat and further rework union contracts. I feel very sorry for autoworkers who are getting schlonged and about to be hit worse. Imagine working your whole life for a company and then having everything you expected suddenly disappear. That sucks.
To understand the unions, you need to have some historical perspective. Way back in the day, really only a couple of decades ago, health care costs were an afterthought because premiums were low. Most companies, large and small, provided cheap, quality health care to their employees both during an employees tenure as a worker and in retirement. In the last 25 years, give or take, health care costs have exploded for a host of reasons, some good, some bad. What also happened was a very long period of production growth, with a few recessions in between. The continued growth allowed for all sorts of stupid decision making on the part of management. While I agree totally about the ineptness of our car companies' management, some of what happened was not their fault. They had no way of knowing until it was too late what the costs of some of these benefits really would be. Also, in good times, which they mostly had, the now infamous two year "training programs" when auto workers were out of a job were rather untypical. To say GM doesn't pay more than other manufacturers (Toyota, Honda?) suggests that you don't understand legacy costs.
What arrogant management did not anticipate until it is was too late was that European and Japanese cars would cut into their market in the good old USA. Then a second thing happened - cars started lasting a whole lot longer. It used to be that you bought a car every couple of years to avoid problems with older cars. Now, 150K miles on an engine with almost no maintenance is SOP.
What arrogant management also did not anticipate was gas at $4 a gallon. Enjoy it while you can, but in a few years, once this recession clears itself out, gas prices are going up. Production costs continue to go up as oil becomes harder to get and the only thing keeping costs down now is lack of demand, pure and simple. So what did the boys do, kept making bigger and bigger SUV's so the freaking soccer moms could T-bone you with their escalades while they BS with other soccer moms. Management at GM, Ford and Chrysler has a history of being reactive, not proactive, and it put us down the proverbial rathole. Small cars are the wave of the future, and the wave is upon us. Electric cars are also the wave of the future. Things change - that is the way it is. As a country, using wind, solar and nuclear power, we can eliminate a lot of our hydrocarbon-based fuel consumption. To me that is a good thing. You can still have performance, but in much smaller car. Small cars are a blast to drive. There is a reason F1 cars weigh 1400 pounds with the driver.
Quality is another issue. Consumers' Reports is about as objective as it gets. Yeah, yeah, they can't tell a ZR1 from a Carrera, but they do evaluate brand quality, and if you look where US companies stand, they are on the bottom. You can argue the point, but they at least get feedback on trouble by their readership. Who else does?
As far as the bailout, our government seems to be largely clueless. Obama has taken an election which was a vote against a failed presidency and used it as his mantra for out of control spending and wealth reapportionment. As bad as Obama is, all you need to do is look at the growth of debt when republican's were at the helm. As a fiscal conservative, it made me sick. From my perspective, the Feds need to stabilize the credit markets. Once the banks can lend, credit will flow and people may actually start buying a few things. That is not an easy thing to do as real estate is tied in tightly, and there our problems are a long way away from resolution - look at the commercial market in real estate if you doubt me. With all these people out of work, that equates to a lot of vacant space for rent. Wall Street feels very uncomfortable, as they should, with the "messiah" calling for tax increases on individuals and corporations in the middle of a recession. He doesn't get it. Guess community organizers don't get lots of training in the real financial world. He is smooth and a great speaker and people are fed up with eight years of garbage, but if things don't quickly improve, he's a one termer. I would bet the dems will lose seats in droves in the house and the senate in the interim election. As I get older, my disdain for politicians on both sides of the aisle gets stronger and stronger.
As for the future of the corvette, to me it is very iffy. The cars are selling at too low a rate to keep the factory open for very long. At 11 cars an hour, you make about 440 cars a week or slightly over 20,000 cars a year. However, market absorption is under 10,000 cars a year. Do the math. Plus, the C6 is getting long in the tooth and very few people can afford ZR1's. Z06's are sitting on dealer lots by the thousand. Draw your own conclusions.
I believe Ronald Reagan said something to the effect, "when a political party gets it's constituency by promising money and handouts, we're in trouble"......
Corvette Store
Future of GM
Keep this "rant" for all the new posts that are coming up on this subject..will avoid all of the 
posts...Good work!
