Z.06

My street 2008 Z06 manages to pull 1.2-1.3Gs in corners on a road course My wheels are stock and the tires are OEM sizes by Michelin Pilot S4s or Goodyear F1 Supercar 3. Both of these are 100% street tires. The engine oil system is stock with the exceptions that the oil sump tank has been modified by LPE for additional oil capacity. Also the oil cooling is done by a DeWitts oil cooler with integrated EOC rather than the OEM air cooled oil cooler. I have not seen any oil system issues from these G's.

In comparison a friend of mine has a 2006 Z06 which is running Pirelli DH slicks on Forgeline 11 x 18" and 12 x 18" wheels.
The car also has front and rear aero. His car will pull 1.65 Gs in corners. To the best of my knowledge, the engine oil system consists of a LPE oil sump tank like mine with no special oil pumps, etc.
So now my questions are:
1. How much cornering G's can the 10.5 or 11 qt, OEM oil system sustain on road courses without engine damage caused by low engine oil pressure?
2, Improved engine oiling is claimed by oil tank inserts as well as oil pan baffles. How much increase in cornering G's is available from each of these "improvements"?
3. Katech is offering improved two-stage "blue" and "red" engine oil pumps. How much improvement in oiling do these deliver in comparison to other dry sump oil systems from ARE, Aviaid, etc. on the basis of road course use?

drewz06

definitely pick up the sump tank baffle, this will help a lot to keep oil where it needs to be in the tank... remember, this is feeding the pump to keep the system pressurized.

the pan baffles will help some, but that assistance will probably only be best for mitigating short small cornering events

the katceh pumps are good for drawing better oil volume from the pan, so if the pickup is uncovered, they aren't going to provide any assistance

i cant currently recall the name, but there's another system that you can install that essentially stores oil under pressure, and when the pressure drops, the tank forces oil back in to the system... im sure someone will chime in soon...

airbrush1

I think you’re describing an Accusump accumulator

drewz06

nailed it!

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/accusump

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...p-install.html

chuntington101

Best to ask in the road course section of this forum. I think the general guidance is road tires you should be OK. But if you are running slicks, esp with aero, you need to look at proper drysump solutions.

also some have run external scavenge pump and then using the stock pump for the pressure side only. Supposed to help but be cheaper than a full new dry sump setup.

Apocolipse

I wouldn’t suggest this - it doesn’t work as well as they claim. Best bet for a full aero car that is raced is to get a full multi stage drysump that will help pull the oil out of the pan at those high G where the stock pickup wont

drewz06

good call, i don't personally have any experience with them, just know that others have used them and said they worked well...

but yeah, i agree, if you're going all out definitely need a complete system...

Racingswh

Most of my friends have gone with the little Dailey 3 stage and have been happy. Decent oil pressure and scavenges okay. Bigger pump if you want to make crankcase vacuum and pick up a little more power. Mine has 4 scavenge stages and 1 pressure as well as a mechanical air oil separator to reduce oil aeration at higher rpm. It makes vacuum throughout the RPM range. I only rev it to 7600. The 3 stage is a bolt on with no mods to the engine mount but think you need coil over's although I don't know that to be fact.

If I wasn't going to do a Dailey I would go with a Katech internal pump and keep the factory style setup. I wouldn't mess with any of those others myself. Had an ARE and it was trash.

Z.06

So no quantifiable answers to my three questions (repeated below for convenience)?

1. How much cornering G's can the 10.5 or 11 qt, OEM oil system sustain on road courses without engine damage caused by low engine oil pressure?
2, Improved engine oiling is claimed by oil tank inserts as well as oil pan baffles. How much increase in cornering G's is available from each of these "improvements"?
3. Katech is offering improved two-stage "blue" and "red" engine oil pumps. How much improvement in oiling do these deliver in comparison to other dry sump oil systems from ARE, Aviaid, etc. on the basis of road course use?

No question I would opt for a full Dailey system if the car was being raced and I was protecting a $40k motor. But this is a trackday car and the motor is unimproved OEM throughout, making that kind of investment questionable, in my mind anyway. I would appreciate your experience/advice on the subject.

BTW, for those who do not know otherwise, I have been quoted approx. $11k for the Dailey dry sump (not sure how many pump stages), a 3 gallon Peterson oil sump tank, a Setrab oil cooler and associated plumbing and installation.

Apocolipse

No answer to your questions because there is no way to answer it with an exact number for you

Racingswh

The previous owner of my car ran it like yours. Stock LS7 with no engine mods other than a tune. He ran the car for four seasons with the stock oiling system and won two regional time trial championships with it. He ran it on slicks and coilovers. The car had about 8,000 track miles on it when I got it and it was the original engine. I would have to think he was seeing 1.6-1.7 g's at some tracks. It's a 2010 car so it has the bigger dry sump tank.

I never ran the car stock and I never made those incremental changes so I don't have those answers you seek from personal experience. I just know that the previous owner used the car on road courses nearly from the day he got it and never had any issues. If my car was stock and I wanted to be on the safe side I would call Katech and see which pump they recommend.

I think the little Dailey is like 2k. You need the lines so probably another grand. The tank is maybe 500 bucks. I guess if you have to do coilovers you add that into the price? I don't know if the three stage requires them or not?

If you're interested in the Dailey I would check with the guys at dry sump solutions.

I checked and found the complete 3 stage Dailey kit is 5500. That's everything but the lines and installation. The guys at DSS work directly with Dailey and know their stuff. They were very helpful during my build making sure I got what I needed for the setup, the valvetrain and RPM I was going to be running.

Z.06

I emailed Katech and they said that for good drivers with racing slicks, the way to go was a Dailey Drysump. They did not recommend the Katech Blue or Red 2 stage oil pumps. I called DSS twice, but they never answered their phone. It just went to message with no reply. I agree with your costs for the 3 stage kit. plus cost for hoses plus cost for install. LGM has basically estimated cost of the 5 stage kit as $11k installed. Yikes!

drewz06

so do you think the pan baffle and the sump tank baffle are worth it at all? it seems like it might provide a little bit of help, but i can't really tell the difference with and without...

-drew

Apocolipse

Yes massive difference. Look at a C7 corvette oil pan…notice any similarities? 👍🏻

Racingswh

I don't know personally as I have never had any data pulled with the stock system compared to anything else.

Right now with the Dailey I see steady pressure, which does decrease as oil temps increase and thins out as you would expect, and it pulls crankcase vacuum to redline no matter how hot the oil gets which is in the 260's.

Mike Ellis ran my car without any changes to the oiling system for four seasons. He had the car at the track testing with the Penske engineer the 2nd day he had the car. In truth there's maybe 5 or 6 drivers on the entire forum in total that can drive as well. Jim Mero, Andrew Aquilante, Paul Costas and maybe a couple others. Mike got away with the stock system somehow? Just luck I would guess.

I have to think any changes that help to pull oil away from the crankshaft and work to reduce aeration of the oil has to help to some degree. I know that Steve Landstra swore by those mods you suggest but I also believe that car had LS7 #3 in it when the car was sold. He blew up the 1st two as I recall but don't know what mods to the oiling system he had made prior to those two failures.

For track use my feeling is any mod that helps to keep the oil cooler with reduced aeration and consistent pressure at higher RPM aren't a bad idea. For me and what I know now being on engine build #4 since I bought the car in 2014 I wouldn't waste time on incremental mods or any other system and would go straight to the Dailey if I had to do it again.

Hib Halverson

Keep in mind that the production dry sump on a C6 is really a "semi-dry sump" because when the engine is running, the sump is not completely dry. That's because the production system is "two-stage" having only one scavenge pump and one pressure pump. Both the system in the C8's LS2 and the aftermarket systems listed have multiple scavenge pumps. With the LS2 there is two scavenge pumps with multiple pick-ups. With the aftermarket systems there can be as many as four scavenge pumps.

My opinion is that, if you've got a car that's pulling 1.2g-1.3g you're still ok with the stock system as long as 1) you're using a premium synthetic (which M1 is not), 2) you have the "big oil tank" and over fill by a half to a full qt. and 3) the courses you run on don't have turns which generate maximum lateral acceleration ("max lat) for a long period of time, ie: turns like the "Carousel" at Road America or T8/T9 at Big Willow and so forth.

I think the guy who's generating 1.65g needs a true dry sump from the aftermarket if he's hitting those levels of lat. regularly and he's running courses that have turns that generate sustained max lat for long periods of time.

Also, on the max. lat. thing, the oiling system will perform differently depending on what engine speed is used on those long turns at high rpm. If the driver is one who goes through the Carousel just below on the limiter in third, his/her engine is going to be sucking air bubbles in the oil in the last part of the turn. On the other hand, if a driver has the engine down around peak torque in fourth in a turn like that, the engine might go on to live a long life.

As for the Katech "Blue" and "Red" pumps, they are only for engines with stock, single-stage scavenge pumps. The "Blue" pump offers a modest increase in volume and the "Red" pump offers an increase in both pressure and volume. The Blue pump is for modified engines that have no mods that require increased oil pressure. The Red Pump is for modified engines which require higher oil pressure. For the OP's engine, I'd recommend the Blue Pump unless the OP is planning chassis mods to generate higher max. lat. such like his friend and then he needs a true dry sump.

Finally, the type of oil is important. If you're doing track stuff, a 5W30 is really "iffy". I'd be using at least Red Line 0W40.

Apocolipse

Redline better than Mobil 1? Interesting. Don’t want to turn this into an oil debate but Mobil 1 is definitely an extremely good “premium” synthetic oil…

Hib Halverson

We differ on the use of "premium."

IMO what makes Red Line a better choice is the base stock and in some cases the actual formulation(s).

A pal of mine, Lake Speed Jr. has done some testing of certain Mobil 1 engine oils and has produced short videos about the testing. The most recent test was of M1 0W40 European formula which is a popular product here on the CF. I was quite surprised to watch the footage and learn that, right out of the bottle, the product's viscosity at 100°C is barely an SAE40 which means as the oil "ages" during use, its vis becomes an SAE30. That raised a red flag with me.

I've asked Lake to test the mainstream M1 0W40 and he's going to do that, but his test of the Euro formula version has me wondering about the 0W40 that was factory fill in some recent (LT5) and current (LS2)GM engines.

Here's his test of 0W40 Euro


At 100°C Red Line 0W40, which I use in my LS7, is well into the SAE40 range.

Apocolipse

Sorry but I’ll take actual engineers that designed and tested to then sell the oil over someone that heats up oil and looks at ppm of it saying it’s good or bad.

Why does it matter if it’s “barely a 40wt” - that’s not the point. The point is for it to protect whatever engine that was designed for it and vice versa. Engine gets designed, oil manufacturer gives oem the weight that will work for their specs, oem tested, passes, gets warrantied for that specific use, done.

Redline does none of that except pay for a lot of advertisements and hearsay.

Z.06

Thanks for your opinion Hib. My Z06, which is running on M1 0w-40 engine oil, has the big tank, which I fill to the middle hole. I would not dream of overfilling the dry sump tank for fear that it would burp oil over into the intake manifold. While I had a catch can on my engine for quite a while, I have now removed it to see what the effect is. Seems like no discernable effect other that catching an ounce of oil or two. Using Michelin Pilot Sport 4s and Goodyear Supercar 3 tires, I have turned well over 1000 laps on my home track, which has a lengthy left hand turn which lasts for 5 seconds or more with my street-tired car. I have never seen any adverse effect which could be related to cornering Gs affecting the engine oil system.

My major question is regarding what level of Gs (cornering or braking) are sufficient to dictate a true dry sump system, not the semi-dry sump as provided by the factory. A good friend has been running his C6Z and C7Z06/07 on Pirelli racing slicks, and I am concerned that he may be running too close to the edge, from a risk standpoint.