Latest Blackstone oil analysis 2/2020
02-24-2020, 07:37 AM
#41
Intermediate
Nice dialogue Froggy, I share you thoughts. In the mitsu Evo web community it was the transfer case that was "badly engineered". etc. Everyone was rebuilding them. I owned two Evo 8's for over 150K each and never had a problem. Of course I watch, listened, etc for the trans issues, but they never came. Anyway, as for your thought that the oil analysis must show metal before a failure I'm skeptical (although I do an analysis yearly). My reasoning: Last year I rebuilt my 390 in my 69 AMX (my second rebuild over 40 years). After the correct 45 min break in period and then oil change and then driving 1200 miles on the engine I had a cam bearing walk on me while coming back from a show. I had to drive the car from the show about 80 miles with literally no oil pressure due to the cam bearing. Before tearing the engine apart, I sent for an oil analysis. The oil analysis did NOT show elevated lead outside the "average range". After looking at the bearings, they were obviously scored, especially the bearing that walked, I thought how could the analysis show such "normal" amounts of lead? Since then I've been skeptical that the oil analysis does much for us unless it shows REALLY elevated levels, and even then you probably already know you have a problem. Why did this happen? No idea, maybe the sampling procedure? Maybe lead does not stay suspended in the oil and there were slugs of it somewhere and not in the sample I took? Who knows....
02-24-2020, 02:07 PM
#42
Race Director
Thread Starter
Nice dialogue Froggy, I share you thoughts. In the mitsu Evo web community it was the transfer case that was "badly engineered". etc. Everyone was rebuilding them. I owned two Evo 8's for over 150K each and never had a problem. Of course I watch, listened, etc for the trans issues, but they never came. Anyway, as for your thought that the oil analysis must show metal before a failure I'm skeptical (although I do an analysis yearly). My reasoning: Last year I rebuilt my 390 in my 69 AMX (my second rebuild over 40 years). After the correct 45 min break in period and then oil change and then driving 1200 miles on the engine I had a cam bearing walk on me while coming back from a show. I had to drive the car from the show about 80 miles with literally no oil pressure due to the cam bearing. Before tearing the engine apart, I sent for an oil analysis. The oil analysis did NOT show elevated lead outside the "average range". After looking at the bearings, they were obviously scored, especially the bearing that walked, I thought how could the analysis show such "normal" amounts of lead? Since then I've been skeptical that the oil analysis does much for us unless it shows REALLY elevated levels, and even then you probably already know you have a problem. Why did this happen? No idea, maybe the sampling procedure? Maybe lead does not stay suspended in the oil and there were slugs of it somewhere and not in the sample I took? Who knows....
02-24-2020, 02:49 PM
#43
Race Director
Thread Starter
Discussion with Blackstone oil tech
Hi all,
Just off the phone with R a Blackstone tech who does the testing & knows the LS7 issue. She said with LS7 especially they are instructed to look for higher ppm of Titanium and Aluminum. They note if mileage is very low as break in metals are NOT indicative of issues, mine at 14k, well past break in. Here are some facts from Blackstone (you know how I like facts).
1) They have done about 1000 tests on LS7 (some are repeat on same engine of course)
2) Average miles on test oil is 2500.
3) Of the 1000 tests about 150 showed higher than some average in those metals. Probably this is a universal average but might be an LS7 average, R could not say.
4) I think this includes some that blew and most that did not. This pretty certain.
5) Most LS7 owners do NOT get oil tested & have no issue. This pretty certain.
6) All kinds of oil brands/weights are used/tested - primarily M1 5w-30. Owner's manual recommended.
7) About 28,000 were built (do the math - https://www.corvsport.com/corvette-s...uction_Numbers
I don't know how many failed but I would guess it's well below 5% (5% of 28000 is 1400). Probably closer to under 1000. Again my guess is more than half of those were modified (everything from a tune to HCI to more) and if modded run hard. So am I saying this is a fraud, definate NO, but is it overblown? Probably yeah. It got going on the interwebs, got press, got lawsuit, and here we are.
For me, I'll keep getting OA's and paying attention to everything on the car. But for now or until an OA shows anything, no head work. Thanks all!
Froggy
Just off the phone with R a Blackstone tech who does the testing & knows the LS7 issue. She said with LS7 especially they are instructed to look for higher ppm of Titanium and Aluminum. They note if mileage is very low as break in metals are NOT indicative of issues, mine at 14k, well past break in. Here are some facts from Blackstone (you know how I like facts).
1) They have done about 1000 tests on LS7 (some are repeat on same engine of course)
2) Average miles on test oil is 2500.
3) Of the 1000 tests about 150 showed higher than some average in those metals. Probably this is a universal average but might be an LS7 average, R could not say.
4) I think this includes some that blew and most that did not. This pretty certain.
5) Most LS7 owners do NOT get oil tested & have no issue. This pretty certain.
6) All kinds of oil brands/weights are used/tested - primarily M1 5w-30. Owner's manual recommended.
7) About 28,000 were built (do the math - https://www.corvsport.com/corvette-s...uction_Numbers
I don't know how many failed but I would guess it's well below 5% (5% of 28000 is 1400). Probably closer to under 1000. Again my guess is more than half of those were modified (everything from a tune to HCI to more) and if modded run hard. So am I saying this is a fraud, definate NO, but is it overblown? Probably yeah. It got going on the interwebs, got press, got lawsuit, and here we are.
For me, I'll keep getting OA's and paying attention to everything on the car. But for now or until an OA shows anything, no head work. Thanks all!
Froggy
Last edited by froggy47; 02-24-2020 at 02:52 PM.
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Whiteonrice (02-27-2020)
02-24-2020, 07:03 PM
#44
Racer
I guess my question is if there is or is not a valve and valve guide issue on these engines when there is a failure or if it is repaired before failure is there an updated valve and valve guide to keep this from happening again?
One thing to remember on oil samples is they are measured in PPM as the gentleman said with a cam bearing failure if the particles from the failure are to big it will not show in the oil sample. Oil particle count is where larger debris is found. However multi grade oil is difficult to get an accurate particle count due to the polymers used to make the oil a multi viscosity. We use to Kidney loop the 10W-30 bulk oil on delivery with a filter cart to 16/13 particle count clean oil,.By filtering the oil the polymers are broken up. the next morning after the polymers join together the same oil would read 17/16 to 18/16 particle count due to the particle counter reading the polymers as a contaminate. I agree with you Froggy pay attention to your engine do you maintenance continue to sample and pay attention to the trend on the oil samples..
One thing to remember on oil samples is they are measured in PPM as the gentleman said with a cam bearing failure if the particles from the failure are to big it will not show in the oil sample. Oil particle count is where larger debris is found. However multi grade oil is difficult to get an accurate particle count due to the polymers used to make the oil a multi viscosity. We use to Kidney loop the 10W-30 bulk oil on delivery with a filter cart to 16/13 particle count clean oil,.By filtering the oil the polymers are broken up. the next morning after the polymers join together the same oil would read 17/16 to 18/16 particle count due to the particle counter reading the polymers as a contaminate. I agree with you Froggy pay attention to your engine do you maintenance continue to sample and pay attention to the trend on the oil samples..
02-25-2020, 12:01 AM
#45
Hi all,
Just off the phone with R a Blackstone tech who does the testing & knows the LS7 issue. She said with LS7 especially they are instructed to look for higher ppm of Titanium and Aluminum. They note if mileage is very low as break in metals are NOT indicative of issues, mine at 14k,
For me, I'll keep getting OA's and paying attention to everything on the car. But for now or until an OA shows anything, no head work. Thanks all!
Froggy
Just off the phone with R a Blackstone tech who does the testing & knows the LS7 issue. She said with LS7 especially they are instructed to look for higher ppm of Titanium and Aluminum. They note if mileage is very low as break in metals are NOT indicative of issues, mine at 14k,
For me, I'll keep getting OA's and paying attention to everything on the car. But for now or until an OA shows anything, no head work. Thanks all!
Froggy
Second, valve guide/stem wear will not show on an oil analysis. period!
I know because my intake guides were badly worn on my 2012 z06 and the CrN coating was worn through on some of the valves. I have the photographs, verification from AHP, and the bill for 8 new intake valves. I also had the oil analysis done at Blackstone. 14K on the bone stock original engine, 2250 miles on the oil sample with worn guides/stems. result: 6 ppm Fe and 1 ppm Ti.
It bugged the $hit out of me until I pulled the heads and confirmed I had an issue. Dam glad I did. You may too and not even know it. Call it overblown internet hype or what ever you want. You won't know until you physically check. I have watched several of your videos and can tell you are just as passionate about this stuff as I am and I would hate to see one more blown up LS7. Like Chuck Yeager said; "wait for trouble and you've got it!" Fair warning Froggy
Last edited by tomcat11; 02-25-2020 at 12:19 AM.
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CDNZ (02-25-2020)
02-25-2020, 02:39 PM
#46
Race Director
Thread Starter
I guess my question is if there is or is not a valve and valve guide issue on these engines when there is a failure or if it is repaired before failure is there an updated valve and valve guide to keep this from happening again?
One thing to remember on oil samples is they are measured in PPM as the gentleman said with a cam bearing failure if the particles from the failure are to big it will not show in the oil sample. Oil particle count is where larger debris is found. However multi grade oil is difficult to get an accurate particle count due to the polymers used to make the oil a multi viscosity. We use to Kidney loop the 10W-30 bulk oil on delivery with a filter cart to 16/13 particle count clean oil,.By filtering the oil the polymers are broken up. the next morning after the polymers join together the same oil would read 17/16 to 18/16 particle count due to the particle counter reading the polymers as a contaminate. I agree with you Froggy pay attention to your engine do you maintenance continue to sample and pay attention to the trend on the oil samples..
One thing to remember on oil samples is they are measured in PPM as the gentleman said with a cam bearing failure if the particles from the failure are to big it will not show in the oil sample. Oil particle count is where larger debris is found. However multi grade oil is difficult to get an accurate particle count due to the polymers used to make the oil a multi viscosity. We use to Kidney loop the 10W-30 bulk oil on delivery with a filter cart to 16/13 particle count clean oil,.By filtering the oil the polymers are broken up. the next morning after the polymers join together the same oil would read 17/16 to 18/16 particle count due to the particle counter reading the polymers as a contaminate. I agree with you Froggy pay attention to your engine do you maintenance continue to sample and pay attention to the trend on the oil samples..
Last edited by froggy47; 02-25-2020 at 02:42 PM.
02-25-2020, 02:51 PM
#47
Race Director
Thread Starter
First, thanks for calling and talking to Blackstone Labs and getting more statistical information.
Second, valve guide/stem wear will not show on an oil analysis. period!
I know because my intake guides were badly worn on my 2012 z06 and the CrN coating was worn through on some of the valves. I have the photographs, verification from AHP, and the bill for 8 new intake valves. I also had the oil analysis done at Blackstone. 14K on the bone stock original engine, 2250 miles on the oil sample with worn guides/stems. result: 6 ppm Fe and 1 ppm Ti.
It bugged the $hit out of me until I pulled the heads and confirmed I had an issue. Dam glad I did. You may too and not even know it. Call it overblown internet hype or what ever you want. You won't know until you physically check. I have watched several of your videos and can tell you are just as passionate about this stuff as I am and I would hate to see one more blown up LS7. Like Chuck Yeager said; "wait for trouble and you've got it!" Fair warning Froggy
Second, valve guide/stem wear will not show on an oil analysis. period!
I know because my intake guides were badly worn on my 2012 z06 and the CrN coating was worn through on some of the valves. I have the photographs, verification from AHP, and the bill for 8 new intake valves. I also had the oil analysis done at Blackstone. 14K on the bone stock original engine, 2250 miles on the oil sample with worn guides/stems. result: 6 ppm Fe and 1 ppm Ti.
It bugged the $hit out of me until I pulled the heads and confirmed I had an issue. Dam glad I did. You may too and not even know it. Call it overblown internet hype or what ever you want. You won't know until you physically check. I have watched several of your videos and can tell you are just as passionate about this stuff as I am and I would hate to see one more blown up LS7. Like Chuck Yeager said; "wait for trouble and you've got it!" Fair warning Froggy
02-25-2020, 02:53 PM
#48
The answer you want to hear= Your valves and valve guides are fine you have nothing to worry about , you took a oil sample and sprinkled pixy dust on it and it shows everything is all good. Even despite the companies all over fix the LS7 heads weekly and countless of info on blown motors you still are skeptical. Pixy dust once again
The answer you don't want to hear: No matter what YOU NEED TO, AT MINIMUM ,HAVE YOUR VALVES CHECKED . THEN BE READY TO CALL AHP AND HAVE THEM FIXED CORRECTLY.
I know its a tough pill to swallow , trust me im in the same boat. Its alot of dough to spend for zero reason when GM should be going good on their mistake on a flagship car. Its beyond rediculous . But it is what it is.
The answer you don't want to hear: No matter what YOU NEED TO, AT MINIMUM ,HAVE YOUR VALVES CHECKED . THEN BE READY TO CALL AHP AND HAVE THEM FIXED CORRECTLY.
I know its a tough pill to swallow , trust me im in the same boat. Its alot of dough to spend for zero reason when GM should be going good on their mistake on a flagship car. Its beyond rediculous . But it is what it is.
Last edited by mainecobra; 02-25-2020 at 03:02 PM.
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American Heritage (02-25-2020)
02-25-2020, 05:23 PM
#49
Race Director
Thread Starter
Well, but, it still remains, IMO, a fact that 100% of the LS7 engines do NOT FAIL. Even after 100k miles in some cases. And I am not buying that they all eventually will, nope. Not with examples of high mile engines with no head work still running.
So you guys, not naming anyone, who swear we all gotta get them all fixed, please explain above, thank you.
Froggy
Please explain with possible REAL reasons.
So you guys, not naming anyone, who swear we all gotta get them all fixed, please explain above, thank you.
Froggy
Please explain with possible REAL reasons.
Last edited by froggy47; 02-26-2020 at 06:08 PM.
02-25-2020, 06:24 PM
#51
Why dont you start with have your valves checked to see if they are in spec? Then go from there. If they are out of spec you can make a informed decision on the direction to go. Figure if you have a out of spec exhaust valve which are hollow sodium filled, you may be somewhat concerned. If you do some research you will find when this valve side loads on the guide they are at risk to crack and break off and motor goes bye bye. Just dont be ignorant to the fact that this is not a issue. Its a real problem plain and simple. Is your car affected ? How can you possibly know? GET YOUR VALVES INSPECTED. Its just too much of a risk not to. The Ls7 is a amazing and very expensive motor. Pay the hour or two labor and just check if the valves are out of spec and if so how much. To not do anything at all is just ignorant and maybe it would be best to sell the z06 and purchase a mustang. 😂😂😂😂😂😂🤛🏻
Last edited by mainecobra; 02-25-2020 at 08:17 PM.
02-26-2020, 12:48 PM
#52
Race Director
Thread Starter
Last edited by froggy47; 02-26-2020 at 12:48 PM.
02-26-2020, 12:54 PM
#54
Race Director
Thread Starter
Why dont you start with have your valves checked to see if they are in spec? Then go from there. If they are out of spec you can make a informed decision on the direction to go. Figure if you have a out of spec exhaust valve which are hollow sodium filled, you may be somewhat concerned. If you do some research you will find when this valve side loads on the guide they are at risk to crack and break off and motor goes bye bye. Just dont be ignorant to the fact that this is not a issue. Its a real problem plain and simple. Is your car affected ? How can you possibly know? GET YOUR VALVES INSPECTED. Its just too much of a risk not to. The Ls7 is a amazing and very expensive motor. Pay the hour or two labor and just check if the valves are out of spec and if so how much. To not do anything at all is just ignorant and maybe it would be best to sell the z06 and purchase a mustang. 😂😂😂😂😂😂🤛🏻
Just dont be ignorant to the fact that this is not a issue.
I don't know how you can possibly think I of all people are not aware of the issue? Huh? Did you really say that? I am all over the issue. I do plan do pull the covers & inspect.
Phew, so far as Mustang I do like the Shelby's.
02-26-2020, 10:52 PM
#55
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2009
Location: Klein TX
Posts: 3,046
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2023 C6 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Look at it this way: Not everyone dies from cancer, but it's a good idea to get a checkup every now and then. 
02-26-2020, 11:44 PM
#57
Le Mans Master
Not an Internal Combustion engineer, but my understanding is the stem ends of all valves get oiled more or less depending on other variables (oil pressure, viscosity, maybe additives, engine temp, yada yada). A "cocked valve" my description of the issue, is gonna wear the guide & the stem (and probably the seat & top of the valve) for some time xxxxx before failing. That time to me is the question. And the trace metals in the oil.
Someone explain to me is as non technical terms as is possible, how a valve will snap like a cheap chinese chopstick without showing the slightest previous sign of wear? You can call it
but spending 4-6k that is not necessary is over my budget.
I am not one of those guys who puts off maint. either, I just had my JRI shocks redone and requested before/after dyno traces and they were not worn much at all. I spent the $$$. Guys these are some awesome shocks, See my vid later on the install to my c6z.
I am just too much of a common sense guy to "buy it" (the hype about head jobs) without some more common sense explanation. So please reply how this failure happens with no prior (oil analysis) warning. I am listening. You can't just say it and that makes it true. No offense to anyone who has done that. This is the "interweb" sarcastically, we all have keyboards & (often) uneducated opinions (Moon landing faked- haha).
FWIW I admit going back & forth on this, so I own that.
Someone explain to me is as non technical terms as is possible, how a valve will snap like a cheap chinese chopstick without showing the slightest previous sign of wear? You can call it
but spending 4-6k that is not necessary is over my budget.I am not one of those guys who puts off maint. either, I just had my JRI shocks redone and requested before/after dyno traces and they were not worn much at all. I spent the $$$. Guys these are some awesome shocks, See my vid later on the install to my c6z.
I am just too much of a common sense guy to "buy it" (the hype about head jobs) without some more common sense explanation. So please reply how this failure happens with no prior (oil analysis) warning. I am listening. You can't just say it and that makes it true. No offense to anyone who has done that. This is the "interweb" sarcastically, we all have keyboards & (often) uneducated opinions (Moon landing faked- haha).
FWIW I admit going back & forth on this, so I own that.
You've been on this forum for years, you are an adult, you can spend the next week reading all the posts and looking at all the pics on this subject - no one should need to spoon feed this information to anyone at this point. Good luck with your car - just don't put any more miles on it and it will be fine.
Last edited by Dan_the_C5_Man; 02-26-2020 at 11:53 PM.
02-27-2020, 01:13 PM
#58
Race Director
Thread Starter
Enjoyed the last several posts, even the ones that totally missed the point.
I never, never, never, said do NOT check your valves , don't get oil analysis. So for you (slow minded) folks who are trying to put words in my mouth, put these somewhere.....
As for the folks who insist every LS7 will fail sooner or later, spend your money, God bless.
For the rest of us, I am testing & driving the
heck out of mine. Something happens you will quickly know.
Cheers
Froggy
I never, never, never, said do NOT check your valves , don't get oil analysis. So for you (slow minded) folks who are trying to put words in my mouth, put these somewhere.....
As for the folks who insist every LS7 will fail sooner or later, spend your money, God bless.
For the rest of us, I am testing & driving the
heck out of mine. Something happens you will quickly know.Cheers
Froggy
Last edited by froggy47; 02-27-2020 at 01:16 PM.
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Whiteonrice (02-27-2020)
02-27-2020, 07:45 PM
#59
thing knower
in for the results! 73k miles on my stock ls7! let's see what happens... 
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Whiteonrice (02-27-2020)