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really close to buying a 2009 z06, but I'm worried about the engine, advice needed
C6 Corvette ZR1 & Z06General info about GM’s Corvette Supercar, LS9 Corvette Technical Info, Performance Upgrades, Suspension Setup for Street or Track
get it along with the warranty... I think I paid 2700 for the warranty 3/30...
I got one expecting the heads to fail, and the main shaft bearings in the trans went out at 53k... got a new trans for a hundred bux...
also the driver window regulator went out and had to be replaced..
I'm stock at 73k, but it's heads or a long block for me early next year..
My 06 has extended GM warranty which I bought from Ken. I maxed the years out and I think it was less than 3k for 5 or 6 years with low miles.
My car has 22k miles and I wanted to cover myself until the real problems and a real corrective action for the guide wear is established. So far we have a number of vendors selling a "fix" but the root cause has not been identified. If any of the vendors felt they had the real fix they would back it with a warranty. We are getting hints that the service finish on the valve stem was not smooth enough. Is there enough oil on the stem and do the seals need adjustment. Then there is a question about how the stem wall thickness may have an effect and then there is the concern about machining errors. All hints but not one vendor has said that if you do A, B, and C we will warranty our work and you will no longer have to concerned about the valve issue.
The rod wear is starting to show and I don't think that enough data has been to be anywhere close to the effected years and if the early production change in how the big end was machined has anything to do with wear.
With my day job as an senior engineer I used to be a participate in some serious failure review boards for a major defense company and failure review without the manufacturer providing part history and hardware to review can not be effective.
My 08 Z06 that I road race still has the stock bottom but I worked with some of my daytime experts and I was lucky to be provided with equipment I could use at lunch to cull suspect valves and to end up with some nice concentric valve to seat interface. No I can not do hardware for anyone else. This was a one time science project favor that they wanted to do and I would not ask again.
This is why I suggested a GMEPP warranty.
You are wrong sir, Katech offers a 3/36k warranty on their LS7 head "fix". or you can get a warranty through GMEPP. Just remember that no one will post about what a great car the C6Z is, only the negative stories get posted
Just do it! When I was looking I drove a Z06 and a GS. The GS doesn't even come close to the experience of driving the Z06. It's something about how that LS7 even in stock form pulls like a freight train all the way to red line. It just wasnt the same in the GS. Also I was coming from a C5 Z06 modded with heads, cam and full exhaust and tune and I think this LS7 pulls harder. At the end of the day its your money and decision and the 4k is nothing for a small piece of mind. When I got my 2008 I actually bought it from my father in law and it had 15k miles on it. He bought it new and I knew it was very well care for. I drove it about 5 miles from his house to mine and I immediately started pulling the heads. Even at 15k miles I had some worn guides. I did the core exchange with AHP and havent worried about it since. That was almost 2 years ago but I have only added about 3k miles on them. My opinion buy the Z06 because it is obviously what you want. If you get a GS you will probably regret it and be looking for a Z06 again. Plus the Z06 is ****!
I bought a new 2009 Z06 and kept it stock through the warranty period. I knew about the head issue so after the warranty I got the AHP #4 package and added Kooks headers and a tune. Never looked back. Eventually sold the car for a Callaway GS convertible. Kept it two years and now drive a low mileage Ron Fellows Z06. Plan to get the same AHP fix for it. My advice , get the Z06 and fix the heads. You will have a permanent grin on your face.
seriously? so my concerns about engines grenading at 40k miles means i should look at Hondas or Toyotas?
that's simply ridiculous.
Lighten up. It was sarcasm. Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more. Of course your concerns are very legit. Besides, Accords and Camrys don't come in a manual. : )
If you’re worried before you buy it you’ll probably always be worried after you buy it. If that’s too much then look at a GS or C7.
This. Hence my original post.
The OP has some honest soul-searching to do to find the right year and model that meets (and exceeds) his needs. Personally, I bought what I liked and didn't worry.
To the OP... In my experience, I bought an 08 C6Z 3LZ w 20K miles bone stock... Added heads, cam, intake, exhaust, clutch and beat it like a step child and you know what... It took everything I threw at it. 32K is not a lot of miles. At least you know this car has been driven and the Atomic Orange is an awesome color that you rarely see. IF you like the car.. Buy it and don't look back. Fix the heads and enjoy... I ended up selling mine to a friend and replaced it w a 12 ZR1... These two cars are totally different, I cannot imagine stepping backwards to a Grand Sport...
Hey, you do you.... GL w whatever you decide. I expect to see pics of said 09 AO Z06 soon....
I'm in a similar boat. Looking to purchase my first Vette next spring, and have always had my eye on the Z06. I'm not as affluent as some and getting the car is a serious purchase. I'd like to mod it slowly and have a rocket eventually, but spending several thousand dollars to fix an issue that can grenade the engine is making me rethink things.
As you mentioned, maybe consider the GS? For the price of a Z with the motor issues addressed, I could likely get a newer GS and get a procharger slapped on.
Outside of the LS7, what are you not getting with the GS?
As you mentioned, maybe consider the GS? For the price of a Z with the motor issues addressed, I could likely get a newer GS and get a procharger slapped on.
Outside of the LS7, what are you not getting with the GS?
I'm no expert on fi but a decent charger setup and supporting mods (that I've seen on vendor sites) is going to run much more than a set of fixed heads.
you can get a set of inexpensive heads from ahp for roughly over 2k if you watch the budget, but the heads aren't the only thing that can bust....
you're going to pay to play no matter what... a set of pilot sport 4s mounts and balanced are going to run you around 1600... oil change? roughly two gallons of mobil 1 and a filter... and so on...
If I could go back I would do a GS and just slap a heartbeat on it, and enjoy, or swing a ZR1.
A lot of "fixed" heads are just a temporary fix anyways, and you land up doing it over and over again, or the fixed heads fail and you are in the same position or worse, because you spent money and motor still failed. So just make sure to really look into all the options.
Fwiw, I bought my '08 Z06 sight unseen from the classifieds here. Its first owner sent it to LPE for their 630hp conversion and ZR-1 clutch then died in a Viper crash. His friend bought it from that estate and didn't use it. It is a complete weapon on the street but don't expect them to be cushy on sub-optimal pavement.
If you like the car, don't drag your feet. Buy it and enjoy it. Any car can break. If you're nervous about something specific, fix it before it is a bigger issue. Not many (?none?) modern, high-performance car parts will be cheaper or more readily available than those that comprise a Z06. Also, when you meet another coming down the street, give them a wave and admire how great they look knowing that your car is just as beautiful.
If you like the car, don't drag your feet. Buy it and enjoy it. Any car can break. If you're nervous about something specific, fix it before it is a bigger issue.
This is true. A little off topic but my wife bought a new Audi A4 in 2012 and it threw a rod at 20k miles. Any car can break at any time. Its mechanical and will eventually fail.
my story is also an atomic orange one...an 08, 3LZ bought a little over a year ago with only 6k miles on it.
Step one was AHP heads.
Some of the guides were right on the border line of being out of spec, so I'm happy I spent a few bucks on this.
I do track the car (not hard core, but I do push it when I do), so I had to do a few other things to make it more suitable as well as increase reliability in that environment.
But one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread with regards to long term reliability ('rod issue'?), is when used on street, how very long it takes for the oil to come up to temp. The early cars didn't have an oil/water oil cooler/heater setup like the ZR1. Those also heat the oil (with coolant) bringing it up to temperature much quicker. Uhh, like most 'normal' cars
You can do lots of research on this topic, but I wonder if some of the rod wear issues may be related to this.
In cool ambient temps, the oil never reaches normal 'operating' temp, and takes a shockingly long time to do so even when its, say 70 out. Not optimal for street use
Having said that, the oil temp sender is actually located in the bottom of the oil tank and is deemed to read about 20f lower than if was actually in the block somewhere...at least while putt-putting about at low rpm.
When the engine is spinning faster however (track), circulation is greater so it obviously reads higher and closer to what peak oil temp is in the block. May be ok for a race only car, but not so much for a street car.
Anyway my research led me to different solutions for the low oil-temp issue, or at least help bring it up a bit faster...
Obviously, one, the most expensive, is upgrading to a newer setup used on the later Z06s and all ZR1s. In a nutshell, this entails a different radiator, actual cooler, lines, fittings,etc. This is well documented on the forum and i think the 09 you are considering, already has the necessary fitting on the block for that cooler.
Ultimately, this may not be as effective at cooling on track however, but at that point,the hard core track rats and racers have gone through additional cooling mods, venting. etc. Outside the scope of what I'm talking about here...
Another, very cheap band-aid is a block off for the oil cooler (however, this also covers the bottom 1/3 of the radiator. Its adjustable however to cover less). http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Corvette/
People who've done this, report it does help and is easy to remove for track days...but its still not a pre-heater.
You can also make your own, but this is neat and easily removable via an access panel underneath.
Others, who don't track their cars at all, have removed the oil cooler altogether and use a block off plate on the block. They report the car doesn't get too hot on street,or extended cruising even in high ambient temps.
What I have done, is wrap a cheap 110v pre-heater blanket around the bottom of the oil-tank. Since the car is not my daily driver, I just plug it in 1/2 hour before I drive and it brings the oil in the tank up to say 130~140f. Of course, once it fires it up, oil temp starts dropping, down to say 100f, before it starts climbing slowly again. A band-aid, but its a head-start
I also just ordered a oil cooler thermostat kit. While this is still not pre-heating the oil (like the newer cars), it will prevent the oil from cooling as the car warms up. http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-co...610-p-767.html
A plus...it also includes a fitting for a temp sender in the thermostat housing.
I will relocate my sender after I've had a chance to evaluate the setup's effectiveness using the OE sender (next spring).
A final thought; re valve guides...LS7s have a 1.8 ratio rocker arm setup. I'm not engineer, and am admittedly new to these cars, but apparently this is more extreme than on other LS engines. I'm musing that with some high-lift aftermarket cams, head longevity may be affected...even after the valve guide concentricity issue has been fixed.
These engine already rev to 7k, and have great driveability, so unless you're really striving for more, I'd be loath to do a cam swap. That's just me musing and I'll Iikely be flamed, but there it is.
Ultimately, I bought a C6 Z06, despite some known issues (and some unknown).but gosh, this a fun car and the last of the real, analog type Vettes (I was also considering a C7 GS)
Last edited by tommyc6z06; 12-08-2019 at 12:51 PM.
At the risk of getting hammered by those who like to imply LS7 motors are ready to hand grenade if you don't immediately do the heads, let me tell you my experience. I bought a new 2013 GS in lieu of a comparably priced used Z06. Didn't think the 70 horsepower difference would be that great. I was happy for almost 3 years. Then I drove a friends stock (except for B&B mufflers) Z06 to Carlisle, PA with him. What a hoot. I felt the differences were major in almost every regard. I had a deposit on an 09 Z with 9,000 miles on it the following Monday. I have enjoyed it so much I have purchased 3 more in the last 3 years (call it a late life crisis) plus a 2010 ZR1 for my Florida home. One of the later Z's, another 09, is very heavily modified so I won't count that. The remaining 3 LS7 engines have a total between them now of 86,000 miles, all with stock heads, cams etc. One has had a CAI and tune and several have aftermarket mufflers. I tend to drive them like I stole them but only the heavily modified 09 has seen any track time and that was very little. Seven of my friends own C6Z's none of which have had any valve issues. One had Katech modify his motor and when they removed the stock heads after 24,000 miles all the valves were within factory specs. In no way do I mean to imply that the problem doesn't exist, only that it tends to be over reported. If you are fearful of the consequences then by all means have the heads done but don't let that sway you from enjoying what I consider one of the greatest performance cars of the modern era.
Finding light weight (about 3,180 lbs or less depending on the year), high horsepower, easily modified, relatively inexpensive (30 to 40 K) sports car is very hard. In addition most have their own set of potential problems or issues. Relative to the 2010 ZR1 it is a great car. Feels more refined than the Z with more initial punch but lacks the raw feel as well as the way the Z seems to pull forever. My modified Z makes the same horsepower while carrying over 300 less pounds and a much improved suspension (brakes, cooling, clutch, rear end are all ZR1). That car is really special and goes well beyond where the ZR1 lives. Obviously you could tweak the ZR1 further if that was your choice but I find tire choices and getting power to the ground start to be the bigger limiting factor.
Finally I mostly concur with TOMMYC6Z06 in the oil cooling dept. The 09 and 10's have the most air to oil cooling ability. Later models are water to air and earlier ones have less capacity. I bought a vinyl wrap that covers probably 60% of the oil cooler and that helped some. I also installed the oil tank heating element and plug it in 30 to 40 minutes before I use the car unless it's over 80 degrees outside. I make it a practice not to push the car hard until oil temps get above 150 degrees. The cost of the wrap and the heating element was less than $200. Cheap feel good insurance. Who knows if I am accomplishing anything by doing so but only time will tell.
In summary I would not want to have missed out on the C6 Z experience. The C7's are nice but way too heavy for my taste. C7 Z's are 300 lbs or more heavier and lack that extra 500 RPM's. Either way good luck with your choice.
Keith
If I could go back I would do a GS and just slap a heartbeat on it, and enjoy, or swing a ZR1.
A lot of "fixed" heads are just a temporary fix anyways, and you land up doing it over and over again, or the fixed heads fail and you are in the same position or worse, because you spent money and motor still failed. So just make sure to really look into all the options.
Can you provide a link to the people who had "fixed " heads done by a reputable aftermarket firm such as Katech, AHP, etc & had their heads fail? That would be a good read
Can you provide a link to the people who had "fixed " heads done by a reputable aftermarket firm such as Katech, AHP, etc & had their heads fail? That would be a good read
i hadn't read that people with properly repaired heads were having continued issues, either. I'm fact, i thought it was the other way around. that people were starting to have enough miles on the repaired heads to figure things out.
Can you provide a link to the people who had "fixed " heads done by a reputable aftermarket firm such as Katech, AHP, etc & had their heads fail? That would be a good read
Sadly you have to leave the forum or go dig through the vendor review section for edited stuff. Go elsewhere and there is plenty of failures. Anywhere from out of box to 10-20k miles later.
Sadly you have to leave the forum or go dig through the vendor review section for edited stuff. Go elsewhere and there is plenty of failures. Anywhere from out of box to 10-20k miles later.
well it sounds like the smart decision is to either not get the z06, or if i do, get an extended warranty. if i get the warranty and am covered for a few years, that lets me build my savings back up and set money aside for when the warranty runs out. if the engine blows up before then, oh well, i just get a brand new engine. I'm ok with that.
and hopefully in a couple years, we'll know a bunch more about what's going on with the ls7, and I'll make the necessary repairs at that time.
heading out in about an hour. just have to walk the dog.
I'm pretty nervous, though. thanks, everyone, for the info. it's been helpful, then confusing, then scary, then helpful, them scary again, then helpful.
12-08-2019, 07:59 AM
