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[Z06] LS7 Head Fix...Is there really one?

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Old 07-24-2019, 09:35 PM
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MAD Matt
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Default LS7 Head Fix...Is there really one?

Just wanted to see how many cars on here have some mileage on them and have no issues. This seems to point to the chicken little syndrom that the "sky is falling" when it's actually not....curious????? Seems blown out of proportion..........

Last edited by MAD Matt; 10-02-2019 at 10:46 PM.
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07-25-2019, 07:45 PM
Mordeth
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Everyone has differing opinions on this issue. You should not take any single persons or shops word for it and should evaluate and research this issue yourself in order to draw your own conclusions. The good news is that there is 10+ years of data, research, testing and information available to you all across the internet, and on these forums from very experienced, intelligent individuals and shops. Spend some time to educate yourself on the issue in a serious, non-trivial way and it will be far easier to make an informed decision. All of these questions you ask have been answered quite literally thousands and thousands of times. This is not to say that you are not welcome to ask them again. Have at it, no one will stop you and everyone will gleefully chime in with an opinion (including me). However, many of the answers already exist and with a little elbow grease and time you can find them. Don't expect everyone else to do the work for you and provide simple straightforward answers to complex questions.

As far as the head fix is concerned. The straight forward "fix" is as follows:

- Replace guides (PM, MS90 or bronze)
- Inspect/Replace exhaust valves (number of choices here, Ferrea Hollow SS are fine)
- Inspect and either replace or treat/polish intake valves (if using bronze guides go with TiMo treated intake valves)
- Valve job and new valve seals/locks
- Inspect valve springs for fatigue and retainers for wear
- Very minor resurfacing of head
- Inspect rocker arms to ensure proper wipe pattern and no loose bearings/trunnion
- Inspect lifters
- New head gaskets and head bolts

All of this can be done for around $1500 - $3000 depending on choice of material and labor costs (which vary) and some of the checks I listed above are simply for peace of mind and because you are already "right there" to look at it. This will fundamentally address the known issues with our heads and significantly reduce the chance of random, catastrophic failure. It will extend the useful life of these parts in a statistically significant and measurable way. It will provide some peace of mind and decrease exponentially the likelihood of a valve dropping due to most of the known manufacturing defects that exist prior to the "fixes" above.

Many shops have various combinations of these "fixes". Katech uses TiMo intake valves and bronze guides (proven to work). AHP uses PM or MS90 guides and OEM intake valves (treated) with Ferrea exhaust valves that are also proven to work. Other shops have similar packages that are also proven to work. With "work" being defined as I stated above and no other modifications performed (just "the fix"). These fixes (with some exceptions but not the rule) tend to last tens of thousands of miles (if not the useful life of the car).

The fact is though, if you choose to purchase and maintain an LS7, which is a high revving, high output engine with an inherently unstable valve train, aggressive geometry, aggressive camshaft design and potentially oiling issues within the valve train, then you choose to accept that even with the above "fixes" you always run the risk of catastrophic failure or at a minimum faster valve train wear than a "normal" commuter vehicle. What the fix does do though is address the KNOWN DEFECTS in the original manufacturing process that are a significant contributor to premature, catastrophic failure. So with these fixes you have just put the odds SIGNIFICANTLY in your favor that this does not happen to you by doing what I stated above. The valve train still requires regular checks (every 15k-20k miles depending on duty and drive cycle) to ensure parts are wearing appropriately and nothing has gone haywire. The fixes above combined with routine, VERY SIMPLE checks on the systems involved dramatically increase both the reliability of your engine as well as the ability to predict somewhat accurately what is going on. This is what intelligent people do. They identify the risks and either choose to avoid them (sell the car) or mitigate/reduce and then monitor them. There is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed fix forever (and that applies to about all of things in life). So accept it and make your choices.

Everyone has their favorite, go-to shop. It is almost always purchaser bias driving this decision (or random recommendations that people interject to feel important and part of the discussion). I am personally biased to AHP, because I race my car and have used their heads for the last 3+ years with zero issues. I have probably put the equivalent of 100k miles of wear on my valve train and have done nothing but replace the springs. "Zero issues" is defined not randomly as "no problems", but rather and for the record, that my heads are removed and inspected (by myself and a machine shop) using measuring equipment on average 2-3 times per year to verify clearances, wear on parts, tolerance creep, cascading effects and other things. My entire engine is removed once a year for complete inspection/rebuilding. My valve covers come off 2-3 times per month for inspection of valve train. Regular oil samples (once a month) are sent to Blackstone. Regular dynos are performed to verify power output. Regular compression and leak down tested are performed to verify cylinder, piston and piston ring integrity. Hell, I broke a piston ring land and basically blew up my motor a few years ago due to detonation and the only thing that survived were the AHP rebuilt heads, which looked AND measured like the day I purchased them. So I myself am biased towards what has worked for me, with "worked for me" defined as 3+ years of hard, abusive, endurance racing that strains all parts to the absolute maximum limits and has put the rough equivalent of 100k+ miles on my motor and car worth of wear. I don't care what Facebook says, or what anyone else says about their buddies car or what they heard or what they think they saw. Meaningless noise. I only care about what the actual person who owns the car, performed the "fix" and then inspected, experienced, measured and tested in a variety of conditions and circumstances.

WCCH, Katech, AHP, Advanced Induction, LME, SPS and others are known shops that have proven to properly address the FUNDAMENTAL defects with our heads in a reliable way, mitigating to a very large extent the risk of premature, catastrophic failure of the valve train and subsequent windowing/destruction of your block. But again, certain inherent risks will always exist, and if you cannot accept these risks and the associated required occasional checks on parts that wear then you should sell your car as it is not for you (and I say that with all due respect).

It's the same thing with tires. If you don't like the wear on the tires that your street legal race car came with, or if it is known and proven that they were sold with defective tires (with denial from the manufacturer so no recourse), then buy a new set of tires with a different compound that lasts longer for your use or which addresses and "fixes" the issue (if the issue is PREMATURE wear/failure due to a manufacturing defect - not that tires in general wear.) If you still don't like the fact that tires need inspecting (even the good ones) on a street legal race car that naturally wears tires faster than a commuter or that your street legal race car was sold with defective tires that need replacing to prevent/mitigate premature (but not eventual) failure - then sell the damn car and buy something else like a Prius or whatever car that comes with tires that have no defects and also last forever . Substitute "heads" for "tires" and the reasoning is the same.
Old 07-24-2019, 09:45 PM
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yip
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Over 20,000 miles on my AHP heads and almost all of them on boost making over 700hp. I reached out to AHP this year and asked if they should be inspected and they said it wasn't needed.
Old 07-24-2019, 09:45 PM
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Lawdogg
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WCCH did my heads. Ported, decked, new guides, springs. 40,000 miles and 100 track days later, heads were still good when I had the whole motor freshened.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:47 PM
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OneMeanZ
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Originally Posted by yip
Over 20,000 miles on my AHP heads and almost all of them on boost making over 700hp. I reached out to AHP this year and asked if they should be inspected and they said it wasn't needed.
Did you go PM or MS90 guides?
Originally Posted by Lawdogg
WCCH did my heads. Ported, decked, new guides, springs. 40,000 miles and 100 track days later, heads were still good when I had the whole motor freshened.
I need to look into WCCH more.
Old 07-24-2019, 09:51 PM
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MAD Matt
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Thanks for the replies so far.

Last edited by MAD Matt; 09-19-2019 at 06:51 AM.
Old 07-24-2019, 10:29 PM
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Apocolipse
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Ffs
Old 07-24-2019, 10:35 PM
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30 plus k on our AHP (AutoX also) no issues !!!!
Old 07-24-2019, 10:37 PM
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:03 PM
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I am still waiting for my motor to be put into my car, but Mast is who I went with and they relined the guides and their heads. They say there should never be a problem again with that
Old 07-25-2019, 05:33 AM
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Sub’d
Old 07-25-2019, 09:26 AM
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99Hawk262
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If you search enough, several companies have had heads out of spec after xx mileage. AHP and WCCH are two that I remember reading about on this forum. I wouldn't say this is the norm by any means, but even the best fixed heads aren't a one and done. To answer your question, my opinion is that even 'fixed' heads should be inspected every 15k miles or so. I had 10k on my AHP heads and was going to have them checked within a few thousand miles but ended up getting rid of the car. For the instance on here of AHP heads that were out of spec, I'm pretty sure the guides were the PM version. It's a great discussion point; I too am curious what we'll start seeing once these fixed heads accrue some decent mileage (20K+).
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:40 AM
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Z007
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I have heard the bronze Moldstar90s are the best, well recommended by some shops. But can you not just get (forged I guess)steel intake valves instead of Ti and then not have to worry anymore like the LS3 guys don't?
Old 07-25-2019, 10:09 AM
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MAD Matt
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Originally Posted by 99Hawk262
If you search enough, several companies have had heads out of spec after xx mileage. AHP and WCCH are two that I remember reading about on this forum. I wouldn't say this is the norm by any means, but even the best fixed heads aren't a one and done. To answer your question, my opinion is that even 'fixed' heads should be inspected every 15k miles or so. I had 10k on my AHP heads and was going to have them checked within a few thousand miles but ended up getting rid of the car. For the instance on here of AHP heads that were out of spec, I'm pretty sure the guides were the PM version. It's a great discussion point; I too am curious what we'll start seeing once these fixed heads accrue some decent mileage (20K+).
What I am interested in seeing is how many miles have been put on cars with "fixed heads" and then have done inspections after 20-30 thousand miles to find either good or bad results. Seems like folks are dumping money into there cars because of the fear mongers. There are literally thousand of C6Z owners out there enjoying their cars and they are still together.

Last edited by MAD Matt; 10-02-2019 at 10:25 PM.
Old 07-25-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Z007
I have heard the bronze Moldstar90s are the best, well recommended by some shops. But can you not just get (forged I guess)steel intake valves instead of Ti and then not have to worry anymore like the LS3 guys don't?
You can change intake valves, but you'll lose the 7k rev of the LS7...those heavier valves would start to float at the stock limit. I think I've read with stainless intake/exhaust valves the rev limit would probably be around 6300/6500?
Old 07-25-2019, 10:47 AM
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99Hawk262
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Originally Posted by MAD Matt
I do understand from what we have been seeing that inspection is "key" to avoiding failure, sad but true. What I am interested in seeing is how many miles have been put on cars with "fixed heads" and then have done inspections after 20-30 thousand miles to find either good or bad results. Rather disappointing to own such a great car and have these issues. I'm trying to decide what path to take with mine...2012 Centennial Z06.
I hear you and agree; between the heads, and now the increase of cars with rods rubbing and creating bottom end issues, cost of ownership has the potential to skyrocket. I would have loved to see how my heads were doing with 10K on them, but wasn't worth the cost knowing I was parting ways with it.
Old 07-25-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by OneMeanZ
You can change intake valves, but you'll lose the 7k rev of the LS7...those heavier valves would start to float at the stock limit. I think I've read with stainless intake/exhaust valves the rev limit would probably be around 6300/6500?
Or you can goto a different TI valve, but most people don't like that because of the $1200+ cost. My victory DLC coated valves were almost $1300.

Guide material, shop, etc are just one small part. What cam, application, valve train, etc etc etc all have huge effects. It is a system. There are WCCH heads out of spec, there are AHP heads out of spec. You can't just rely on a material, or a shop as a fix, you need a complete proven package.
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:43 PM
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Seems like most folks with issues have done mods. That is a contributing factor for sure.

Last edited by MAD Matt; 09-19-2019 at 06:56 AM.

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Old 07-25-2019, 12:47 PM
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There's a couple cars done by Katech or WCCH to Katech's spec that have been checked after thousands of miles and reported to be still in spec. I found them searching the topic on this forum. Katech wrote an article and an interview on one of them.
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MAD Matt
WCCH, AHP, PRC...etc,etc have been found to be out of spec. So, there really isn't a definitive "proven package". I simply want to keep my car completely stock and simply address the cylider head, valve guide issue. Can it be done ? I have yet to see anyone say, "I have XYZ cylinder heads on my car and have driven it 40 thousand miles and checked it a couple of times and things are still in spec. Does such a car like this exist or are we just kidding ourselves ? It sucks that GM won't admit the failure but lets not go there...water under the bridge at this point.
Your missing the point, yes there is proven packages, but that means a lot more than the head. It means heads with correct valves, springs, retainers, lifters, pushrods, cam, etc etc.

Yes plenty of cars exist that made it 40k+ with near zero wear after "fixing". It isn't just a "head package" it has to be an overall setup including a lot more than the heads.
Old 07-25-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Unreal
Your missing the point, yes there is proven packages, but that means a lot more than the head. It means heads with correct valves, springs, retainers, lifters, pushrods, cam, etc etc.

Yes plenty of cars exist that made it 40k+ with near zero wear after "fixing". It isn't just a "head package" it has to be an overall setup including a lot more than the heads.

How much does one have to spend to get the overall package done right?


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