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I'd send your block to LME in Houston and let them straighten it out. Primarily because they break the engine in on their engine dyno, so they can be responsible for that portion of the build.
I'd send your block to LME in Houston and let them straighten it out. Primarily because they break the engine in on their engine dyno, so they can be responsible for that portion of the build.
The as-found report is excellent. It also confirmed my earlier comments. Ring wash. It wasn't from dry pistons, or the pistons would also be scored. Your quench is also too tight.
Who is assembling the long block and tuning this thing? Sounds pretty clear that is where the problem resides. PM me if you want.
I was ready to pull the trigger on an ERL short block but my build just didn't require the power level they offer. I still would in the future if I even need a sleeved block but would probable just go LSX and be done with it. Ask them to cover the labor and you pick up the parts. They may do it.
My builder is local and his polices is this.
1) If there is any failure due to miss assembly or machine work he will cover 100% parts and labor. I know thats about the norm and he would have to clam that is was in fact one of the 2 issues.
2) Any part failure or other issues and I cover the parts and he eats the labor to make it right again.
Depending upon what they need to do, a rebuild like that on a new engine will be between $900 and $1800. Everything short of bearings and rings can be reused.
Also, I know someone who hand issues with LME and it wasn't taken care of, this happens to all shops from time to time.
It happens all the time Dan. One of the reasons I bought my own dyno is to make sure break in is done correctly.
The vertical scoring looks like ring wash occurred. This can, and does happen during break in, if fueling is too rich.
It could also have been caused by installing the pistons dry.
ERL is (or maybe was) a top tier engine machine shop.
What if the cylinders are egg shaped? His are 1.5 to 2 thousandths out of round. The bores were almost 3 thousandths over. The pistons had excessive piston to wall clearance and would rock side to side. You can clearly look right at the rings between the pistons and cylinder walls. There were two cylinders (one on each side that were close to being round. The leak down on those two was 13% and 14%. All the others were 21% to 23%.
The gas in the oil is most likely from the multiple times the switch was cycled on and off when the car was being moved and loaded and unloaded on the car trailer. The injectors would pulse gas each time the switch was cycled. That gas would then end up in the oil.
Regardless of the break in procedure the rings were never going to seal in this engine.
Totally concur, and my ERL short block, whose only purpose is to accept large amounts of abuse on race tracks, has not had any issues.
Have you ever done a leak down on it? Would be interesting to know how healthy it is. Ed's made 562 rwhp. How many people would have thought that was great numbers?
What if the cylinders are egg shaped? His are 1.5 to 2 thousandths out of round. The bores were almost 3 thousandths over. The pistons had excessive piston to wall clearance and would rock side to side. You can clearly look right at the rings between the pistons and cylinder walls. There were two cylinders (one on each side that were close to being round. The leak down on those two was 13% and 14%. All the others were 21% to 23%.
The gas in the oil is most likely from the multiple times the switch was cycled on and off when the car was being moved and loaded and unloaded on the car trailer. The injectors would pulse gas each time the switch was cycled. That gas would then end up in the oil.
Regardless of the break in procedure the rings were never going to seal in this engine.
Where did you see taper or roundness on the build spec? I only see clearance, and he's got forged pistons. Out of round is in 'tens', not thousands, and that is after it ran.
Injectors will not open with the switch, unless the engine actually runs.
Your right about it being in tens, brain fart. The 1.5 to 2 out of round is what we saw when the engine was removed. And the cylinders had a slight tapper from top to bottom. I haven't compared but that spec sheet looks like the original build sheet they gave him.
Does anyone else here run they're bearing clearance at 1.8 (.0018)?
Couldn't remove any pistons to measure them as it would void his warranty. You can go to Ed's first post and look at the rings between the pistons and cylinder wall.
So who's doing what here? Are you the guy who installed the heads and tuned the car, willyfastz?
How can you measure bore taper with a piston in the hole?
Yes, I've ran mains as tight as 1 thou, all the way to four. It depends on the journal size, application, type of race engine, etc., etc, etc....
What about the rings in the picture? Looks normal to me. You do realize that most pistons have a larger OD at the skirt, and that's where you measure for bore clearance, don't you?? The OD of the piston at the top is always smaller, or the heat would lock it in the bore.
So who's doing what here? Are you the guy who installed the heads and tuned the car, willyfastz?
How can you measure bore taper with a piston in the hole?
Yes, I've ran mains as tight as 1 thou, all the way to four. It depends on the journal size, application, type of race engine, etc., etc, etc....
What about the rings in the picture? Looks normal to me. You do realize that most pistons have a larger OD at the skirt, and that's where you measure for bore clearance, don't you?? The OD of the piston at the top is always smaller, or the heat would lock it in the bore.
I did not install anything on this engine, I removed it from the car.
Measurements were taken with the pistons at the bottom of their stroke. We took what measurements we could without voiding his warranty.
Yes I know how a piston is designed. I also know that if the piston to wall cleanse is excessive enough to see the rings that clearly they're not going to seal. I fixed another engine that had 9.5 piston to wall clearance mic'ing the pistons from the skirts. That engine picked up from 433rwhp to 505rwhp. It also had the same scratches in the cylinder walls as Ed's.
If the head gaskets were OEM GM LS7, they are .051" compressed thickness. If the piston to deck height is between -.002 and +.002, how in the h*** did they hit the head? Even if the piston to bore clearance were a few though excessive, and it allows more piston rock at TDC, I still don't see how it would be possible.
If the head gaskets were OEM GM LS7, they are .051" compressed thickness. If the piston to deck height is between -.002 and +.002, how in the h*** did they hit the head? Even if the piston to bore clearance were a few though excessive, and it allows more piston rock at TDC, I still don't see how it would be possible.
I'll look at the heads tomorrow, but I don't remember any signs of the pistons hitting the heads. I have the gaskets laying with the heads and they are deff. stock ls7 gaskets. The pistons had A Lot of rock but I don't think they were hitting.
I did not install anything on this engine, I removed it from the car.
Measurements were taken with the pistons at the bottom of their stroke. We took what measurements we could without voiding his warranty.
Yes I know how a piston is designed. I also know that if the piston to wall cleanse is excessive enough to see the rings that clearly they're not going to seal. I fixed another engine that had 9.5 piston to wall clearance mic'ing the pistons from the skirts. That engine picked up from 433rwhp to 505rwhp. It also had the same scratches in the cylinder walls as Ed's.
All I have to go by is the info posted. Having said that, .005 piston skirt clearance is noted on the build sheet, which is where I would have fit these pistons (I use a CV-616). If you have not seen a top ring before, as in the pick, then you have not seen many race engines.
.0026" end gap is about right for a boosted or sprayed application with 4.125 bore and steel rings.
It's clear to me that you guys are on a witch hunt. Good luck. I have nothing more to add, and am not interested in getting in the middle of disputes.
Take it somewhere else for evaluating if you're convinced ERL fked this up.
All I have to go by is the info posted. Having said that, .005 piston skirt clearance is noted on the build sheet, which is where I would have fit these pistons (I use a CV-616). If you have not seen a top ring before, as in the pick, then you have not seen many race engines.
.0026" end gap is about right for a boosted or sprayed application with 4.125 bore and steel rings.
It's clear to me that you guys are on a witch hunt. Good luck. I have nothing more to add, and am not interested in getting in the middle of disputes.
Take it somewhere else for evaluating if you're convinced ERL fked this up.
I'm not on any kind of hunt. I don't have a dime in this. And depending on the pistons .005 would be perfect.
The ring gap is not the problem with the 23% blow by either. I never said it was. I have one now with .0024 end gap with 4% leak down. Difference is the cylinders are round on this engine.
Maybe ERL should post a video of them mic'ing the cylinders on Ed's engine to prove they are round. Just put a bore mic in and video the change as you move it around the bore.
Only reason I posted here is because I hate seeing Ed get screwed.
Has anyone else had an issue with there ERL motor? I bought a short block that was balanced and blue printed. Did a leak down after break in and found I was getting blow by. 23% on the leak down. So I pulled the motor and sent it back. ERL is saying the issues are from a improper break in. There fix at my cost is to do a light rehone and coat the cylinder walls and pistons to draw up the gap. I'm not sure what to do?
I'm amazing anyone would look at that second picture and say that's normal. Also if the rings were washed out with gas they will be razor sharp. And the cylinder walls shouldn't be scared up. Washed rings don't cause the piston skirts to rock in the bores and scare the walls.
I just looked at an engine at another shop that the rings were washed out on from a bad carb. The cylinder walls had no scratches but were shinny.
Last edited by willyfastz; 02-04-2016 at 09:21 AM.
02-02-2016, 09:58 AM
