RUBYREDVET

Isn't that just "snake oil"?

Mopar Jimmy

I have decided from all the oil threads and my research about oils for our C6 Zs the last several months, that I will be running Redline 5W30 this spring.

Dirty Howie

Does it meet the GM spec? I know you are protecting your warranty !


DH

Mopar Jimmy

I don't think it does but I'm not worried about GM not covering me under warranty when I am using the same weight oil they recommond, and what is clearly a better oil than M1 5W30, as it has a signficant amount of additional zinc vs. the M1.

I also don't think they will analzye the exact type of oil being used if I have an engine issue.

MitchAlsup

Let us consider the making of an oil. Let us randomly choose to make a 0W-40 oil. How does one go about manufacturing such a thing?

A motor oil is about 85% base stock and about 15% additives (raceoil may be as high as 93% base stock and 7% additives). The base stock determines most of the characteristics of the oil: its pour point, its startup viscosity,.....

So, to make a 0W-40 oil, we start with a 0W base stock, and then add some VIIs to thicken it up at high temperatures. The HTHS test is done in an environment where if an oil is going to shear down, it WILL shear down, and in particular many VIIs shear readily. GM specifies oil that do not have these particular VIIs in them.

A dino oil (grp 1) base stock has a typical property of 0W-0 on the SAE weighting scale. So to this base stock we dump in enough VIIs to make the oil thicken to a -40 wegith oil at 212dF.

A synthetic (grp 4) base stock has a typical property of 0W-25 on the SAE scale. So to this base stock we only have to add 35% as much VIIs as we had to add to the Grp 1 base stock. LEss VII, less shearing, more stable retention of viscosity.

It is these VII molecules that shear and allow the oil to thin. So in the xxW-yy nomenclature, you start with an xxW oil base stock and then add thickeners. If you shear down these thickeners, the oil reverts to its more base stock conditions.

A 5W-30 (Grp 4 or Grp 5:: fully synthetic) oil has essentially no VIIs, nothing to shear down so the oil is stable over the long haul. GM specifies this oil over a 0W-30 oil because of the stability and because GM understands that -30 weight oil is marginal at higher engine oil temperatures. Anything that would drop that -30 to -25 or even -20 would be catastrophic (to the engine and their warentee liabilities).

10W-40 (Grp 4 or Grp 5) oil has just a smidgen of VIIs and are highly stable. 0W-40 oils have more VIIs and are slightly less stable. A 15W-40 (Grp 4 or Grp 4) oil has essentially no VIIs.

---------------------------

So, GM is caught between "good citizen" on both ends ofthe front. GM wants your car to get high fuel economy, and GM wants low warentee costs. Given that a 5W-30 oil cannot be found, GM wants you to lean towards low warentee costs and give up a bit of 'greenness' (at least until you can put the right oils in the sump.)

In Eurpoe, the situation is slightly different, there are actual places where one can drive at 150+ MPH for minutes at a time. This kind of load will dump heat into the oil, and could allow lesser 5W-30 oils to thin to the point of unacceptable wear rates, whereas a 10W-40 oil will deal with the heat via increase base viscosity.

Dirty Howie

Thanks for the explanation it is excellent !!!

I am almost out of questions ............................





..................... But not quite

Can I presume that my 0w40 is performing better than the 5w30 and is NOT SHEARING based on the increased oil pressure I now see at the track when oil is HOT?

Given my monthly tracking habit and my lowest cold start temp of 25-40 would you use 0w40 or 10w40 ??


DH

MitchAlsup

Without looking up the data at the manufactures site, you can not conclude that one 0W-40 oil is even better than another manufactures 5W-30 oil. A couple of years ago (when M1 0W-40 had an HTHS rating of 3.6 instead of the current 3.8) the comparable RedLine product (5W-30) was thinner at startup (good) thinner at operating conditions (excellent) and thicker at HTHS (3.8 versus 3.6). So, here a 5W-30 oil is better at the jobs an oil is to do compared to a 0W-40 oil.

This is one reason the SAE weight system is "not the best".

I would always use a 10W-40 over a 5W-40 or 0W-40 UNLESS I was doing sub zero (F) cold starts. The base oil is thicker, and it requires fewer VIIs. Just don't give the engine full throttle until the oil is over 160dF and you will be fine.

{I also prefer the Grp 5 oils (diesters) over the Grp 4 (PAOs) because diesters have better HTHS numbers <by and large>. Redline is 70% DE while M1 is 80% PAOs. However, I have tried to avoid rooting for or against any oil product in particular.}

Dirty Howie

I thought you were going to say that. And I just changed the oil last week with Mobil1 0w40.


DH

1QUICKSSB

DH
You will be just fine with the M1. It is a great oil, and will protect your car. Just don't run long OCI, and or change after each track day.

Everett Ogilvie

Howie - you will be fine. I ran many sessions at two different track events last year (Road America and Miller Motorsports Park) with the 0W40, and my engine did not blow up!

With that said, after reading the informative posts in this thread, and based on the type of use my car now gets, I will probably go with someone's "racing" oil (no cats on the car). I guess I will bite the bullet and change it a bit more often, maybe something like after every couple of track events. I am definitely considering a Redline product.

hoefi

For your comfort, Porsche GT3s have M1 0w40 as factory fill, as well as stated in the owner's manual as the recommended oil. Local dealer also warned owners not to used any thing else. Friend put on 9,000 track miles (car gets trailered everywhere) and doing fine. The extra anti wear additives is a known benefit. Mobil's website also recommend the oil, in addition to their 15W50, as the only two oil to use for dual purpose street cars (street and track).

FL KEYS ON

Not sure, but I'd think they would go out of their way to shift a $15K motor swap expense to the customer any way they could and guess an oil analysis is one of the first things they would do along with evaluating the black box data. I'd really like to use the Redline 5W-30 too, but just leary of loosing the GMPP warranty. I just don't know; it's the same old pro's and con's game.

Dirty Howie

Thanks !!

Dirty Howie

That is reassuring, do you have a link? What are you using in your new motor ??


DH

Dirty Howie

If they check the oil they will be able to tell a Redline from a Mobil very easily.


DH

hoefi

I don't have a link on the GT3 oil requirement. My friend and I used to buy oil in large quantity every time we go to the U.S. since price is higher in Canada. We would buy 0W40 together because my Lotus Elise also need the same oil as his GT3. He mentioned about his dealer's warning during a conversation. One of his friends is the owner of Motul Oil Canada and he could have gotten Motul oil in 45 gallon drums with deep discount. But he wouldn't use it because of potential warrantee issues. You can easily confirm GT3 oil requirement by asking on Rennlist.

I have been using 15W50 M1. Not driving it this winter for the first time. If I do, I will use 0W40.

hoefi

I don't have a link on the GT3 oil requirement. My friend and I used to buy oil in large quantity every time we go to the U.S. since price is higher in Canada. We would buy 0W40 together because my Lotus Elise also needed the same oil as his GT3. He mentioned about his dealer's warning during a conversation. One of his friends is the owner of Motul Oil Canada and he could have gotten Motul oil in 45 gallon drums with deep discount. But he wouldn't use it because of potential warrantee issues. You can easily confirm GT3 oil requirement by asking on Rennlist.

I have been using 15W50 M1. Not driving it this winter for the first time. If I do, I will use 0W40.

Dirty Howie

Thanks

I am pretty comfortable with the 0w40 as I don't think it will shear down to as thin as 5w30 in my use cycle (2 track events and 5k street miles) based on its steady oil pressure readings during first fill with it. But I didn't do an oil analysis. I know I definitely am more comfortable at the track. And based on the "no oil can be too thin at start up" I shouldn't lose any sleep. Plus I have 94K miles now on my car so its unlikely warranty will be an issue ...........


DH

1QUICKSSB

The only thing I see them denying warranty for, would be for the emission system. When I bought the car, the dealership had no problem with the use of redline.

hefti2

@Dirty Harry

You wanted to know the year of my car.. It´s a 07. And I have checked once more the pillar/door but couldn´t find a sticker there.
:dunno:

Well, I am also now wayving back and forth between stock 5-30 or 5-40.. or even 0-40. These are more common here in GER.