m48xhp

the real question, and the real issue with GM is they have to justify the price increase. For it to stay low, they have to use similar parts in all models. the $50k base and the $125k ZR1. Even if they can produce the same thing in mass with lesser quality leather for $10,000, will the Corvette sell at a base of $60,000? or will this be a 5LT type of option at $10,000 over the 3LT price? thatll put a loaded GS in the $80s. its real easy to say "why doesnt GM do this, or that" but then we all complain when the base price goes up.

AFVETTE

I have NEVER seen a more beautiful interior. One word AWESOME!

Makes my interior look cheap:




Tom

JDRacing

Hardly.

phileaglesfan

So he/she is one of the 30 lucky FXX owners.

John,
I can't describe how nice your interior looks. Words don't do it justice.

My ONLY concern is the loss of the side airbags. I don't need some "friend" or his/her family to sue my butt off because I took out the side airbags and they were injured/killed in an accident.

I don't see GM putting this quality of an interior in a Corvette. A lot of people on this site complain about spending a few $k on the 4LT option. They'll complain about interior quality until they have to pay the bill.

FactoryRaceCar

John it was a pleasure talking to you as always Can't wait for my new seats and interior!

Going back to designing the Twin Turbo logo for the seats now

MR.WaynesWorld

Can't wait to see it installed......

Mez

Wow. Wow. I mean, wow.

evoviiiyou

Simply gorgeous! I love it...awesome work guys!

FreddyG

That's Beautiful work John!

Bluewasp

Holy sh@#$!!! very nice!

TLC5 In CT.

I totally agree with your last statement. I've seen a number of people state on this forum that they love the ZR1 but can't understand why GM doesn't install an interior equivalent to that of a Ferrari. Somehow they seem to be overlooking the vast difference in cost between a ZR1 and a Ferrari.

John@Caravaggio Corvettes

Thanks for all the compliments, if GM wanted to do an interior like this they could. The problem is that they need to start thinking outside the box. When they are developing they do bring the major competition into the studio. But they just can't seem to see what it takes. They do such a great job with everything else.

m48xhp

sure, but they could put interior the quality of the Audi R8 or a Porsche 911 or Aston DB9 who are all in that price range ballpark. but like i said earlier, i cant see them doing it to the ZR1 unless they do it across all the Corvettes

John@Caravaggio Corvettes

All it takes is creativity, this Maserati is 80% vinyl and the rest is leather. I know as I had a customer make me re-do the vinyl door panels and trim in leather. GM needs to get away from the grainy finishes that they use.

ZaneO

100%

Bwright

The ceramic brakes are now an option on the Z06 and that was always the plan. I know there are more versions of the car on the table and you may see that option there too. Not 100% certain though what form the other versions will take.

But you have hit on a key part of the contracting process as it relates to the design and marketing aspect of the car. Is it worth pulling a key performance part(s) from the car and substituting a very expensive interior in its place with the removed performance part(s) now becoming optional? Very tough call but I think the Corvette team did the right thing.

The ceramics are a very expensive standard part but would be more so if they were made optional because now you cannot verify the take rate. The brake supplier will likely want to get a reasonable guarantee of how many units will be taken. The fewer they and GM think, the higher the price of the option. It is always easier on all to make something standard.

In addition, the ceramics cut weight by 40 lbs. which was critical to bringing the car down to a target weight. So if you took them out and substituted an interior with the net weight John has an indicated would be added complete with side-airbag equipped seats you would be looking at a significant ~70 lb. weight gain which the engineering team would regard as a categoric non-starter.

That said, the brakes on the Corvette have not seemed to be a weak point. I cannot recall a test which cited brake failure or fade. Quite the opposite in fact. So maybe the car could have gotten away with standard brakes. But I think the performance targets for the car were such that GM was rightly convinced that they had to bring it extreme for the brake set. When you realize that those brakes are shared with the FXX/Enzo and the Veyron it really brings it home. In fact, the entire wheel/tire combo reflects how determined they were not to finish last on performance. Speedline, Brembo and Michelin. The tire maker alone was a serious break with tradition (from Goodyear) that the team did not take lightly but which has lit a fire under Goodyear.

But the decision on the brakes reflects as I always say that when given a dollar Corvette’s engineers quickly start thinking about how they can get $2 worth of performance out of it. If you take $10K of performance out of the car and replace it with a $10K interior would it have received the amount of global coverage it has? Corvette’s calling card has always been that it punched way above its weight class on performance and can deliver that performance for far less than what the competition, both real and perceived, charged. That value equation has kept the car in good stead for nearly 60 years. Fixing what’s not broken may be more costly than people think.


I would disagree to a point. I think the Corvette demographic is fairly broad although I do think the ZR1 runs up on the limit of the buyer group. That said, it depends on what the money has been spent on, performance or interior.

I would definitely agree that adding costly interior options will indeed likely not be met with broad enough purchasing interest to justify setup and production. The Corvette demographic tends to prioritize performance. If you sacrifice too much of that for an interior you will likely lose too many buyers to make it worth it.

But the economy is so weak that not only have Corvette sales literally been cut in half but the numbers are similarly grim from Bentley, Aston Martin, Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini. Just to use three of those marques as examples, I still remember about a year ago reading in shock that Aston Martin sales were so poor that it was poised to breach its debt covenants. Porsche sales fell such that when its ill-fated takeover attempt of VW came to grief the little company did not have enough money from car sales to even think about exercising its options on VW’s stock. For all intents and purposes Porsche went bankrupt. When I saw that Bentley sales were cut in half during the recession I knew that nobody would be spared. Nobody.

In that kind of environment I understand where ZR1 sales are. Like virtually every other marque on the ship when it sank Corvette sales are in a lifeboat. Viper didn't make it to its. I hope the survivors make landfall.

Bwright

T…H…I…S...!

Finally, someone who completely gets it.

It is so easy to say that GM should simply “do this” because so many do not understand what it takes to actually deliver their request.

Forget for a moment the really obvious stuff like making a $10K interior standard and what that would do for Vette sales which are already down 50% on their current base. Just look at what a valuable instructional bit one can see from just looking at John’s notation early in this thread on what it would take for him to justify an expensive setup to produce his interiors on GM’s line. That’s a concept that proves difficult for all too many, like Guibo, who seems to think the problem only surfaces when you make something standard, to grasp.

When you present something as an option a supplier is not going to set up for production or supply on spec. GM cannot say, “Hey John, spend the money to set up for seats/interior on the line and you may get 15 takers for the year, you may get 150 or even 1,500. We don’t know but hop to it. If the numbers are low or the economy craps out then that’s just a loss. You're OK with that right?” As John rightly pointed out he is disinclined to spend the money on setup without some clarity on his likelihood of being left high and dry if the economy sours, which it most certainly did with devastating consequences on Corvette sales.

From speaking with my contacts at Corvette those seats alone are likely to run about $3K as an accessory which is the only way they could be offered as they don’t have airbags. OEM’s are basically no longer allowed to sell non airbag equipped seats in a fully certified car as the side-impact rules changed a couple years ago. But accessory sales can still proceed. But what would be the take rate for $3K seats? Yes, if you present those seats, which weren’t even designed for mass production, to anyone on the Forum they are going to be wowed. Now give them the bill and see how many will actually step up and buy.

It’s just like the Draxelmaier interior option. The painfully low overall take rate is just another reminder to GM that sometimes when they build it few come. It reminds me of when GM spent development dollars on offering magnesium wheels and snow tires as options on the C5. With few takers for both GM had to withdraw the options whose engineering, development and marketing costs were not zero. The take rate on those $2,000 magnesium wheels was 6%. SIX. GM dropped the option, licked their financial wounds and walked away. Today the take overall take rate on the Draxelmaier interior is an even lower 4% on the bread-and-butter base car and the cost is $7,705 over the base car’s cost. But you can still hear the business clueless agitating for GM to keep going down that road because the really expensive cars do it.

If you contract for an accessory and you cannot guarantee the supplier his/her mandatory minimum they won’t build or supply the part. If you contract for a minimum and fewer buyers than you expect show up that’s not the supplier’s problem. He has a legal signed contract to which the OEM is obligated. The OEM still owes the supplier the balance of the contract for the duration of said contract. If it were not so EVERY SINGLE THING ON EARTH could be offered as an option the contracts for which could be discarded at will.

I used to negotiate Bloomberg contracts for a multi-billion dollar hedge fund. You would not believe the mandatory contract terms for them to supply the service. You just wouldn't believe it. Bloomberg offers the best financial data service on earth but how does a mandatory 2-year contract at $1,595 a month grab you? First equity keystroke request firmwide is $0.50 and each subsequent data entry keystroke is a penny. Don't try to undercut that as there is a minimum $1k monthly charge. Oh, and real-time data feeds are not included. T1 line and backup charges like you can't believe. And if the economy craps out as it did and you have to lay off a bunch of workers that's unfortunate. You can tone down the level of service on the dead terminals but rest assured you still legally owe them for that nonnegotiable $1,595/month terminal. Even if you were forced to unexpectedly terminate the employee because of dramatically different business conditions 3 months into the term. Ta-daa!

Ask John what the minimum number of interiors GM would have to guarantee him and for how many years before he would set up for his interiors on the BG line. If that complete interior could be done for $9K, a substantial 50% discount to his current prices. With the take rate on the more modest Draxelmaier interior at 4% overall what do people think the take rate would be if we up that cost ~20%?

Better yet, if, as we all saw, the economy tanks unexpectedly and Vette sales fall 50% and so too do contracted accessory sales who do people think get left holding the bag? Hint, it won’t be the car owners who never told GM to sign those supplier/accessory contracts in the first place. Do people really think they are the only ones who realize this or do they not realize that suppliers like John also know this and so must take steps to protect their investment if an OEM wants to enlist their services/products?

This is a strategic business. It takes years to plan, develop and deliver tested, certified, warranteed parts. Know this for an absolute fact, if Rick Wagoner could have seen the future three years before he was unceremoniously removed from GM you would not even have a ZR1 today. Full stop.

Oh, you would have a Volt, but no ZR1. You might not even have a Z06 much less an expensive accessory whose take rate cannot be adequately verified.

If you look the Vette’s ideal 30,000 a year unit sales can anyone here guarantee 10% or 3,000 people will take either a set of $3K seats or a $9K interior to make it worth GM's and the supplier's while? Start a poll on all three C6 sections (C6, Z06 and ZR1). Stop when you have 3,000 committed unique users willing to front 50% of the purchase price on either. See how long it takes to even get to 300 unique users if that.

John's work is the best we have all ever seen. That level of excellence will never ever be cheap. Not as OEM equipment and not as an accessory.

DrivnXcitment

hate the color.... LOVE the design and concept!!!!!!!

Bwright

Everytime I forget how little you understand about the manufacturing side of the automobile business you remind me.

Did you catch the part where John estimated that those seats alone would be a $2,500 offered accessory if mass produced? That's a touch low BTW. Do you think there are enough people out there ready, willing and able to actually pay that in this market or any even a good one? Seen the take rate for the 4LT interior option alone lately? In fact, have you taken a look at OVERALL Corvette sales lately? Let alone the individual option take rates. Perhaps you should.

That's the nature of a strategic business. Let me know when you can guarantee a 10% take rate of overall 30,000 unit sales for $2,500 seats. I promise you I will make sure those threads get put front and center of the right people at GM.

Bwright

Point taken and fair enough John. But as per the actual question asked, how much do you think it would cost GM to exactly replicate that Audi R8 V10's interior which I have sat in and does not appear to be vinyl? Looks a lot like leather, carbon fiber, alcantara and aluminum (possibly painted plastic?) to me. Not to mention that fabulous B&O audio system. That interior would certainly look real nice in a Vette but at what cost to the average buyer all in? Can it really be done exactly as they do on the cheap?

Believe me I get that the Corvette interior can be improved. Some here would not believe how angrily I took GM to task here for the C5 and some aspects of the C6 a few years back. It's just that now I get how much that stuff really costs sometimes and how many buyers GM needs to spread that over to keep the car's cost down.

My pet peeves with the interior are the lack of full power seats (weight/cost) and the lack of a full power steering column. I also wouldn't mind door-mounted curtain airbags as well as a knee airbag. All standard. But, again, weight and cost.

Matter of fact, as an aside, I think the NAV system should also be standard so they could save on developing two audio systems. I also think they should just include the cost of F55/Z51 in the cost of the car and just present that as a "free' option choice and they wouldn't have to waste money on development of the base suspension. But then I look at the respective overall take rates for all those options and sober right up.