[ZR1] ZR1 - time to consider all-wheel drive?
03-24-2010, 12:09 AM
#62
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evolution
I humbly offer an example where an evolution to awd may be beneficial. As an avid mountain biker this thread reminds me of when dual suspension bikes were being developed and introduced.
The traditionalists in the racing community felt that the hardtail/no rear suspension was the only way to ride the mountain. It separated the men from the boys, placed more importance on rider skill, and the rider truly felt connected to the pioneering mountain bikers as well as maintained the undeniable "feel" and pureness of mountain biking.
Their main argument against dual suspension was that it would fundamentally change the sport in a negative way.
The proponents of dual suspension moved forward because they soon realized that in isolating the rider from the countless bumps, stutters, grooves, stones, and ruts (of a certain size of course) the rider could actually set course "earlier" with fewer corrections and muscular input--thus leading to an advantage in competitive situations.
The development led to a point where they realized another significant benefit besides merely isolating the rider, was to keep the suspension movements from influencing the drivetrain. So today, full suspension actually acts to keep the tire planted on the ground, aids in matching pedal input with tire speed, keeps the rider fresher, and also increased (marginally) the bikes at the limit behavior in certain situations.
What's the point of my yarn? The traditionalists are still revered for their skill, the hardtail is still respected as a skill developer/sharpener, the hardtail diehards have a mopar-like following, and all the big races and prize money along with bragging rights go to the new dual suspension bikes.
To me, it's all about matching engine, transmission, and wheel speeds. Getting it down. Getting it to hook. More grip. Fully utilzing all of the area under the curve of the LS9 to all four tires...my imagination runs rampant.
With all that, I still have a special place in my heart for the most rewarding bike I ever owned, my first bike....you guessed it...my trusty hardtail.
The traditionalists in the racing community felt that the hardtail/no rear suspension was the only way to ride the mountain. It separated the men from the boys, placed more importance on rider skill, and the rider truly felt connected to the pioneering mountain bikers as well as maintained the undeniable "feel" and pureness of mountain biking.
Their main argument against dual suspension was that it would fundamentally change the sport in a negative way.
The proponents of dual suspension moved forward because they soon realized that in isolating the rider from the countless bumps, stutters, grooves, stones, and ruts (of a certain size of course) the rider could actually set course "earlier" with fewer corrections and muscular input--thus leading to an advantage in competitive situations.
The development led to a point where they realized another significant benefit besides merely isolating the rider, was to keep the suspension movements from influencing the drivetrain. So today, full suspension actually acts to keep the tire planted on the ground, aids in matching pedal input with tire speed, keeps the rider fresher, and also increased (marginally) the bikes at the limit behavior in certain situations.
What's the point of my yarn? The traditionalists are still revered for their skill, the hardtail is still respected as a skill developer/sharpener, the hardtail diehards have a mopar-like following, and all the big races and prize money along with bragging rights go to the new dual suspension bikes.
To me, it's all about matching engine, transmission, and wheel speeds. Getting it down. Getting it to hook. More grip. Fully utilzing all of the area under the curve of the LS9 to all four tires...my imagination runs rampant.
With all that, I still have a special place in my heart for the most rewarding bike I ever owned, my first bike....you guessed it...my trusty hardtail.
03-24-2010, 12:12 AM
#63
Team Owner
Gotlope: I can't really say what you're talking about with bikes, is the same thing. You're talking suspension. RWD to AWD would be like the pedals on a bike driving both wheels instead of just the rear. Under off-road conditions, you're still driving the bike by the rear wheel, not the front, not both front and rear. Just the rear.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. Lightening the car, putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. Lightening the car, putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver.
Last edited by JustinStrife; 03-24-2010 at 12:14 AM.
03-24-2010, 12:22 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
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Gotlope: I can't really say what you're talking about with bikes, is the same thing. You're talking suspension. RWD to AWD would be like the pedals on a bike driving both wheels instead of just the rear. Under off-road conditions, you're still driving the bike by the rear wheel, not the front, not both front and rear. Just the rear.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. - How about, b/c it's safer, and handles better around a track??? Lightening the car, (the standing mile world record was just beaten by a 3900 lb Ford GT) putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. (the Nissan GTR's Gearbox is extremely reliable, aside from the initial "way too high" launch control when they first introduced the car) It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. - How about, b/c it's safer, and handles better around a track??? Lightening the car, (the standing mile world record was just beaten by a 3900 lb Ford GT) putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. (the Nissan GTR's Gearbox is extremely reliable, aside from the initial "way too high" launch control when they first introduced the car) It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver.
Not to mention that "most" people cannot drive even a standard C6 the way it "could" be driven if it's pushed to it's intended limits.
AWD is superior, smarter, and I'm sure that it WILL be the future of Corvettes. Anyone who disagrees simply isn't using their noggin lol.
I will remain firm on one opinion... they should always offer a "race-ready" Vette for those true racing enthusiasts...
But I have a feeling, even those guys will secretly be buying the F1 Style Paddle shifting, AWD Vettes with gigantic grins when they are (much more confidently) ripping around the mountains on a Sunday stroll...
Last edited by jrhunkler; 03-24-2010 at 12:27 AM.
03-24-2010, 12:30 AM
#65
Team Owner
The Ford GT is also RWD. Not AWD. So that part of the argument is moot. Corvettes really aren't setup for drag-racing. Never have been. They can be made to do it well, but it's not their strength, and there are better platforms for it. Apples to Oranges.
Have you seen what's required in servicing the GT-R? It's not cheap. And you won't be doing the work on those cars yourself. You also have to factor in, that Nissan loses money on every single GT-R it sells due to the price it put out there. GM makes money on every Corvette it sells. If they went with AWD, they would have to raise the cost of the car by quite a bit. They would be pricing it out of it's primary market. Again, defeating the very purpose of the car.
Have you seen what's required in servicing the GT-R? It's not cheap. And you won't be doing the work on those cars yourself. You also have to factor in, that Nissan loses money on every single GT-R it sells due to the price it put out there. GM makes money on every Corvette it sells. If they went with AWD, they would have to raise the cost of the car by quite a bit. They would be pricing it out of it's primary market. Again, defeating the very purpose of the car.
03-24-2010, 12:47 AM
#66
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The Ford GT is also RWD. Not AWD. So that part of the argument is moot. Point with the GT50 was its heavy, lightening the car is more expensive when its already this light, than adding CI or FI...Corvettes really aren't setup for drag-racing. Never have been. They can be made to do it well, but it's not their strength, and there are better platforms for it. Apples to Oranges. Uhmm... ok... so AWD isn't better for going around a loopy track, huh? An average Joe would destroy even the most experienced Z06 driver around a ring, in most cases...
Have you seen what's required in servicing the GT-R? It's not cheap. And a Z06 outside of the warranty IS? lol... And you won't be doing the work on those cars yourself. Thats what mechanics are for. Do you drill you fix your own cavities? No, that's what dentists are for... etc... Not everyone likes to, wants to, or even has the time to work on their own engines... You also have to factor in, that Nissan loses money on every single GT-R it sells due to the price it put out there. GM makes money on every Corvette it sells. If they went with AWD, they would have to raise the cost of the car by quite a bit. They would be pricing it out of it's primary market. Again, defeating the very purpose of the car. I love the way everyone one talks about the "reason for the car"... as if you were part of planning it in the 50's... here's a news flash... the reason for the car was for GM to make globs of profit. Period.
The point I was trying to make, was people can never accept new technology when it comes around, it takes years for it to sink in for some reason... most people hate change... I welcome it. The vette is far better now than it was in the 80's... and it will be far better 10 years from now, and even better in 20...
Have you seen what's required in servicing the GT-R? It's not cheap. And a Z06 outside of the warranty IS? lol... And you won't be doing the work on those cars yourself. Thats what mechanics are for. Do you drill you fix your own cavities? No, that's what dentists are for... etc... Not everyone likes to, wants to, or even has the time to work on their own engines... You also have to factor in, that Nissan loses money on every single GT-R it sells due to the price it put out there. GM makes money on every Corvette it sells. If they went with AWD, they would have to raise the cost of the car by quite a bit. They would be pricing it out of it's primary market. Again, defeating the very purpose of the car. I love the way everyone one talks about the "reason for the car"... as if you were part of planning it in the 50's... here's a news flash... the reason for the car was for GM to make globs of profit. Period.
The point I was trying to make, was people can never accept new technology when it comes around, it takes years for it to sink in for some reason... most people hate change... I welcome it. The vette is far better now than it was in the 80's... and it will be far better 10 years from now, and even better in 20...
03-24-2010, 01:18 AM
#67
Team Owner
Nissan hasn't made a profit with their GTR. You didn't address that point I noticed. Nissan loses money on EVERY GT-R they sell. Every single one.
I also never said AWD wasn't good for going around a track. I don't know where the hell you came up with that 'response'.
I also never said AWD wasn't good for going around a track. I don't know where the hell you came up with that 'response'.
03-24-2010, 01:38 AM
#68
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evolution
JustinStrife:
"Gotlope: I can't really say what you're talking about with bikes, is the same thing. You're talking suspension. RWD to AWD would be like the pedals on a bike driving both wheels instead of just the rear. Under off-road conditions, you're still driving the bike by the rear wheel, not the front, not both front and rear. Just the rear.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. Lightening the car, putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver"
Firstly, thank you for your discussion. I was using the example of what another technique of getting the job done had a positive impact on an otherwise hesitant population. I guess the point I was trying to present (ineffectively) was that something like AWD should at least be considered as an evolutionary technology-- and possibly be on the top-level Corvette. It's something different so it may not be received well, but it also has some performance and economic advantages if lightening the car becomes too costly. If it kept the Corvette ZR1 king, shouldn't we look into it?
I would agree with our other member's opinion that a simple AWD system may help decrease lap times. I also agree that some of the fastest vehicles in the world are RWD. It's just the possibility of an AWD ZR1 is very (x3) intriguing to me.
"Gotlope: I can't really say what you're talking about with bikes, is the same thing. You're talking suspension. RWD to AWD would be like the pedals on a bike driving both wheels instead of just the rear. Under off-road conditions, you're still driving the bike by the rear wheel, not the front, not both front and rear. Just the rear.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. Lightening the car, putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver"
Firstly, thank you for your discussion. I was using the example of what another technique of getting the job done had a positive impact on an otherwise hesitant population. I guess the point I was trying to present (ineffectively) was that something like AWD should at least be considered as an evolutionary technology-- and possibly be on the top-level Corvette. It's something different so it may not be received well, but it also has some performance and economic advantages if lightening the car becomes too costly. If it kept the Corvette ZR1 king, shouldn't we look into it?
I would agree with our other member's opinion that a simple AWD system may help decrease lap times. I also agree that some of the fastest vehicles in the world are RWD. It's just the possibility of an AWD ZR1 is very (x3) intriguing to me.
03-24-2010, 02:43 AM
#69
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Advancements in technology are surely improving AWD applications. But don't forget, a lot of those advancements in traction control, computer algorithms, and transmissions will making their way into RWD cars as well. Along with newer tire technology.
03-24-2010, 02:51 AM
#70
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For example at last years 24Hrs of Spa [second most important GT race in Europe] a new R8 LMS GT3 finished just behind the winning GT1 Corvette............and ahead of all the other [14]
GT1 cars including Maserati MC12, GTR, Aston, Saleen S7, etc. This information is readily available on many, many world sports car racing sites. Audi will dominate most European GT series over Corvette and Maserati as those cars get older. Callaway, Luc Alphand, PK Carsport and others will fight the good fight with the GT1 and GT3 Corvettes.
Here are links to some of the many sites available for info.
www.fiagt.com
www.fiagt3.com
www.corvettemotorsport.com
www.planetlemans.com
GT1 cars including Maserati MC12, GTR, Aston, Saleen S7, etc. This information is readily available on many, many world sports car racing sites. Audi will dominate most European GT series over Corvette and Maserati as those cars get older. Callaway, Luc Alphand, PK Carsport and others will fight the good fight with the GT1 and GT3 Corvettes.
Here are links to some of the many sites available for info.
www.fiagt.com
www.fiagt3.com
www.corvettemotorsport.com
www.planetlemans.com
03-24-2010, 03:27 AM
#71
My insurance rates are very reasonable, so I suspect the latter.
03-24-2010, 09:38 AM
#72
Safety Car
Gotlope: I can't really say what you're talking about with bikes, is the same thing. You're talking suspension. RWD to AWD would be like the pedals on a bike driving both wheels instead of just the rear. Under off-road conditions, you're still driving the bike by the rear wheel, not the front, not both front and rear. Just the rear.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. Lightening the car, putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver.
It's not a comparable analogy at all in my opinion.
I don't see the point of an AWD Corvette. Lightening the car, putting better tires and suspension on, and keeping the car's weight balanced are far more important to a car's performance capabilities. All the while keeping the cost and complexity of the car itself down. That's one thing that makes the Corvette superior to it's competitors. ANYBODY can work on 90% of the car without issues. Adding AWD and dual-clutch systems to the Corvette will make it so that owners will HAVE to take it to shops to get worked on. It then becomes much more about the machine, and less about the driver.
That change happens. And a lot of people thought it wasn't good change.
But those that embraced the change are the ones winning and getting the prize money
And, there is another bike coming up in the ranks...and guess what?
It's AWD (yes...a two wheel drive mountain bike).
You "purists" are not getting it. The car changes. Every generation is light-years better than the previous one, building on the strengths of the others.
If you think traction control cutting power and cycling the brakes is better than putting power to all four contact patches on the road, then I want some of what you're smokin'
Should there be an option to NOT have AWD? Certainly yes, if you don't want it.
Should the C8 be DESIGNED from the start as AWD? Yes, because it's easy to delete the FWD gear from the car.
And AGAIN, when was the last time you saw a RWD Rallye car win an event?
Answer is...not since the late 70's.
And (AGAIN) remember that the last time SCCA allowed an AWD car to race, Audi whipped up on everyone for the entire season. They pulled out of the corners harder than anyone else. They went faster around the course when the weather wasn't ideal. They were weight penalized, restrictor penalized and they STILL kicked a$$.
The real trick with these higher horsepower cars is actually getting power down. Currently you are doing it only through 2 wheels. To stop wheelspin, the Engine Management system chops power. How is that any good for getting the best launch?
Doubling your contact patch goes a long way to making it put that power down and launching your car. AWD gives you that.
03-24-2010, 09:50 PM
#73
Burning Brakes
I suppose I could learn to live with AWD so long as it doesn't cut in to driveline reliability from frequent tracking of the car. However, I think the reality is that the extra weight and complexity do just that: yield a less reliable car that goes through brakes and tires quicker.
I personally don't care about how "easy" a car is to drive, as long as it has a very high potential limit. The fun for me is mastering that weapon. A roughly 2850lb RWD Corvette with 555 hp would probably have much more potential at it's limit than a 3350 lb AWD Corvette with 638HP. Physics are physics. The "equalizer" for inexperienced drivers could be a PTM system. If Chevy can get the weight down, the next gen Corvette will not need AWD. Now, the C8's? Maybe.
I personally don't care about how "easy" a car is to drive, as long as it has a very high potential limit. The fun for me is mastering that weapon. A roughly 2850lb RWD Corvette with 555 hp would probably have much more potential at it's limit than a 3350 lb AWD Corvette with 638HP. Physics are physics. The "equalizer" for inexperienced drivers could be a PTM system. If Chevy can get the weight down, the next gen Corvette will not need AWD. Now, the C8's? Maybe.
03-24-2010, 09:54 PM
#75
Burning Brakes
When Audi dominated, what was the weight difference between it and the RWD cars?
The point is...
That change happens. And a lot of people thought it wasn't good change.
But those that embraced the change are the ones winning and getting the prize money
And, there is another bike coming up in the ranks...and guess what?
It's AWD (yes...a two wheel drive mountain bike).
You "purists" are not getting it. The car changes. Every generation is light-years better than the previous one, building on the strengths of the others.
If you think traction control cutting power and cycling the brakes is better than putting power to all four contact patches on the road, then I want some of what you're smokin'
Should there be an option to NOT have AWD? Certainly yes, if you don't want it.
Should the C8 be DESIGNED from the start as AWD? Yes, because it's easy to delete the FWD gear from the car.
And AGAIN, when was the last time you saw a RWD Rallye car win an event?
Answer is...not since the late 70's.
And (AGAIN) remember that the last time SCCA allowed an AWD car to race, Audi whipped up on everyone for the entire season. They pulled out of the corners harder than anyone else. They went faster around the course when the weather wasn't ideal. They were weight penalized, restrictor penalized and they STILL kicked a$$.
The real trick with these higher horsepower cars is actually getting power down. Currently you are doing it only through 2 wheels. To stop wheelspin, the Engine Management system chops power. How is that any good for getting the best launch?
Doubling your contact patch goes a long way to making it put that power down and launching your car. AWD gives you that.
That change happens. And a lot of people thought it wasn't good change.
But those that embraced the change are the ones winning and getting the prize money
And, there is another bike coming up in the ranks...and guess what?
It's AWD (yes...a two wheel drive mountain bike).
You "purists" are not getting it. The car changes. Every generation is light-years better than the previous one, building on the strengths of the others.
If you think traction control cutting power and cycling the brakes is better than putting power to all four contact patches on the road, then I want some of what you're smokin'
Should there be an option to NOT have AWD? Certainly yes, if you don't want it.
Should the C8 be DESIGNED from the start as AWD? Yes, because it's easy to delete the FWD gear from the car.
And AGAIN, when was the last time you saw a RWD Rallye car win an event?
Answer is...not since the late 70's.
And (AGAIN) remember that the last time SCCA allowed an AWD car to race, Audi whipped up on everyone for the entire season. They pulled out of the corners harder than anyone else. They went faster around the course when the weather wasn't ideal. They were weight penalized, restrictor penalized and they STILL kicked a$$.
The real trick with these higher horsepower cars is actually getting power down. Currently you are doing it only through 2 wheels. To stop wheelspin, the Engine Management system chops power. How is that any good for getting the best launch?
Doubling your contact patch goes a long way to making it put that power down and launching your car. AWD gives you that.
03-24-2010, 09:55 PM
#76
Burning Brakes
03-24-2010, 11:03 PM
#77
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Pros: The car would be able to launch better
The car may be able to handle better in adverse weather conditions
Cons: All wheel drive cars at the road track understeer. Period.
Weight
Terrible handling all the way around
The best track cars are rear wheel drive. The Porsche turbo is awd. It is not a good track car. It's brother the GT2 is a turbo rear wheel drive. It is a superb track car. The Porsche Carrera 4 has terrible understeer, but the GT3 is unbelievable. I would say, better than the Porsche GT2. The lambo is awd and shares the same system as the audi. The one that I am familiar with at the track has awd challenges and after alot of work and dollars, it is finally sorted out. For that kind of money spent for the car, I would think that I wouldn't have to put in any development myself.
The trans mentioned above for the GTR nissan is great. Well, I hope they have it fixed. They get hot and the car goes into limp home mode and goes around the track at 15mph. Pretty dangerous. I have driven them, including the older 34 series and they too understeer. I'm personally not impressed.
I would hope that Chevy would not ever make an awd car as it would just ruin it's ability to perform.
The car may be able to handle better in adverse weather conditions
Cons: All wheel drive cars at the road track understeer. Period.
Weight
Terrible handling all the way around
The best track cars are rear wheel drive. The Porsche turbo is awd. It is not a good track car. It's brother the GT2 is a turbo rear wheel drive. It is a superb track car. The Porsche Carrera 4 has terrible understeer, but the GT3 is unbelievable. I would say, better than the Porsche GT2. The lambo is awd and shares the same system as the audi. The one that I am familiar with at the track has awd challenges and after alot of work and dollars, it is finally sorted out. For that kind of money spent for the car, I would think that I wouldn't have to put in any development myself.
The trans mentioned above for the GTR nissan is great. Well, I hope they have it fixed. They get hot and the car goes into limp home mode and goes around the track at 15mph. Pretty dangerous. I have driven them, including the older 34 series and they too understeer. I'm personally not impressed.
I would hope that Chevy would not ever make an awd car as it would just ruin it's ability to perform.
03-24-2010, 11:51 PM
#78
I have an Evo X. It does not understeer. Infact it is set up to oversteer.
03-25-2010, 12:10 AM
#79
Team Owner
I hope the Corvette doesn't go to AWD anytime soon. I'm on my 2nd one. My old man is on his 15th. I know more than a handful of people who would not be interested in an AWD Corvette, who own corvettes now. I won't buy one. I like Evo's and older GT-R's and all, but I don't like the idea of an AWD Corvette.
03-25-2010, 01:56 AM
#80
Burning Brakes
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Yeah, sounds like a terrible idea! 
I can't wait until they DO come out with it to read how these boards light up with excitement! Anyone who questions Audi/Lamborghini/Bugatti, etc, and not mention this new LF-A coming out from Lexus... should have their head checked.
Let's not forget people... your NOT professional race car drivers! If you took traction control off, and even some with it on.. most of you would wind up wrapped around a tree trying to keep up with a stock Nissan GTR on a windy road...
I can't wait until they DO come out with it to read how these boards light up with excitement! Anyone who questions Audi/Lamborghini/Bugatti, etc, and not mention this new LF-A coming out from Lexus... should have their head checked.
Let's not forget people... your NOT professional race car drivers! If you took traction control off, and even some with it on.. most of you would wind up wrapped around a tree trying to keep up with a stock Nissan GTR on a windy road...