[ZR1] ZR1 - time to consider all-wheel drive?
03-14-2010, 04:03 AM
#41
Drifting
quicker/cheaper fix than AWD is better tires.
03-14-2010, 07:17 AM
#42
Not to mention the "little" fact that the car is a trickle-down of their F1 technology...direct injection, continuously variable valve timing (intake AND exhaust)....and you are 100% correct Bernd....58% of the static weight on the drive wheels.
If the Z06/ZR1 had that kind of weight on the back wheels...there would be very little complaints about traction (or lack of... in this case).
And as others have mentioned before...AWD is not allowed in current racing organizations. The last time they allowed it was when Audi slaughtered all competition...including the venerable C4 ZR1's in the late 80's and early 90's. SCCA let them use it 2 years, and weight penalized the **** out of them and they still managed to walk away from the field.
AWD in the BMW's adds about 200 lbs to the weight of the car...this is a full-sized 5-series sedan too. With careful selection of parts, and some weight reduction in other areas I can see this as a negligible increase given the traction advantages AWD gives a car on the track.
All this whining about how AWD isn't "Corvette" sounds just like the Lambo crowd when they (Lamborghini) decided that RWD wasn't enough for them. It makes high-horsepower cars "safer" to handle at the limit. They are more predictable, pull THROUGH the corners and allow you to come on the throttle sooner than your competition. If it wasn't so...Audi would still be allowed to use their quattro technology in road-racing events all over the world.
Instead, all they are allowed to use it in is Rallye racing...and when was the last time anyone saw a RWD rallye car win a race? Decades ago...
If the Z06/ZR1 had that kind of weight on the back wheels...there would be very little complaints about traction (or lack of... in this case).
And as others have mentioned before...AWD is not allowed in current racing organizations. The last time they allowed it was when Audi slaughtered all competition...including the venerable C4 ZR1's in the late 80's and early 90's. SCCA let them use it 2 years, and weight penalized the **** out of them and they still managed to walk away from the field.
AWD in the BMW's adds about 200 lbs to the weight of the car...this is a full-sized 5-series sedan too. With careful selection of parts, and some weight reduction in other areas I can see this as a negligible increase given the traction advantages AWD gives a car on the track.
All this whining about how AWD isn't "Corvette" sounds just like the Lambo crowd when they (Lamborghini) decided that RWD wasn't enough for them. It makes high-horsepower cars "safer" to handle at the limit. They are more predictable, pull THROUGH the corners and allow you to come on the throttle sooner than your competition. If it wasn't so...Audi would still be allowed to use their quattro technology in road-racing events all over the world.
Instead, all they are allowed to use it in is Rallye racing...and when was the last time anyone saw a RWD rallye car win a race? Decades ago...
some people are stuck in the past, SNAP out of it.Can you imagine the times a ZR1 would post on the track if it had AWD, and a DCT shifting at 50ms? Also given the AWD would allow for much shorter gear ratios and an a 7th gear with the DCT?? Not only would fuel economy go UP, the car would be so much fun to drive on the street as well, where 99% of all drivers drive their cars, not on VHT sprayed dragstrips where even 8000hp top fuel dragsters can hook, try those on the street!!
A GTR with 160less HP from the factory and MUCH more weight than a Zr1 can handle so close to one on the track with above average drivers, we all know if you put super pro drivers the ZR1 would smash it, but how many people here live their lives on the track, or drive fast cars for a living rather than a hobby??
Again, adding weight to the car can be compensated by removing weight elsewhere. GM already added a bunch of weight by the LS9, suspension, chairs, bling wheels and a few other things.
It would require MINIMAL engineering to shave weight off the exhaust, wheels, brakes, body panels, chairs and so on.
For people who are commenting about keeping the vette heritage, well I think a 70K vette was already out of heritage let alone the 90K Carbon edition, and the 110K ZR1. The corvette is being pushed into exotic car realm still while keeping an entry level corvette as the affordable yet fast version, I do not see why GM would stop here. Drive a ZR1 in 1st gear and tell me how you like traction in a car that goes up to 65mph in first gear.
03-14-2010, 09:38 PM
#43
Drifting
quicker/cheaper fix than AWD is better tires.
And yes people keeps saying itll make the vette better with AWD because it simply does make the car easier to drive and that you still gotta be a great driver to handle any high hp RWD car(including the ZR1). But, and I can only assume this, you can drive and drive a GTR for two or three years and turn times that vary by 2 second on a track. You dont need a LeManns driver to drive a car fast, you need someone of good skill that knows the car. After 3 years of driving a Z06 or ZR1 you dont think your times will improve vastly superior to the GTR? You cant beat physics and you have cars(Zo6 and ZR1) that vastly are superior track cars, they just need a driver behind the wheel that can drive them. Now if you are always looking for the next big thing, or just buy a car just to have it then this doesnt apply and youll be real disappointed. However the skill of the GTR driver will be relatively similar after 5 years, the Z06 driver will be vastly improved.
03-15-2010, 02:01 AM
#44
Ya know, there is no denying the fact AWD is sweet when the roads are wet or cold. But I've never had a problem in first gear (or any gear) with high HP (under 550 RWHP) car on the street. Even with 3.73 gears. A nice wide set (335) a Pilot Sports have no problem putting the power down. Sure, 4,000 RPM clutch drops are out, but who really wants to drive that way (on the street)? No matter what, that abuse is going to be short lived with repair bills.
Now where I can see a benefit of a 'top notch' AWD is getting on the hammer earlier out of a turn. This is a benefit, but the system itself adds weight and 'can' upset balance. So, I don't think either offers a huge advantage. Lambo/Porsche knows this, and is the reason they frequently offer a special uber-version with RWD.
Now where I can see a benefit of a 'top notch' AWD is getting on the hammer earlier out of a turn. This is a benefit, but the system itself adds weight and 'can' upset balance. So, I don't think either offers a huge advantage. Lambo/Porsche knows this, and is the reason they frequently offer a special uber-version with RWD.
03-15-2010, 03:00 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
Focus now.
I know everyone is ******* the ZR1 and it's old tech that can't possibly work, or at least not nearly as well as the alternative, but maybe there are two points everyone should come back to reality and remember before throwing the ZR1 in the garbage heap.
1. It WON the lap time race around the track. So much for all the AWD magic.
2. A set of sticky tires weigh a lot less and are a lot cheaper than adding a complete AWD system to the ZR1 and it would get back the infinitesimal amount it lost by in the straight line acceleration.
So, for review, a set of those nice Michelin's the GT2 or the Viper ACR run and the 911 Turbo wins NO performance category of that test. So go ahead and keep bench racing if it makes you feel better.
P.S. and as an aside, don't bring up Audi and their AWD success in that short term racing episode like it's the 'answer'. Audi has consistently been a winner in ANY type of racing venture they undertake. When it comes to racing (R8, R10 back to the old 80's group b cars, hell back to the NSU grand prix cars) Audi brings it, and plays to win. This is a case of a stunning company, that is consistently considered to have the best engineering in the world. No matter what the engine combo (V8, V10 diesel, I5tt) and no matter the drivetrain position or layout they are successful. Because of the company, not the layout of the parts. You shortchange them immensely by attributing their success to such a narrow part of their racing resume.
1. It WON the lap time race around the track. So much for all the AWD magic.
2. A set of sticky tires weigh a lot less and are a lot cheaper than adding a complete AWD system to the ZR1 and it would get back the infinitesimal amount it lost by in the straight line acceleration.
So, for review, a set of those nice Michelin's the GT2 or the Viper ACR run and the 911 Turbo wins NO performance category of that test. So go ahead and keep bench racing if it makes you feel better.
P.S. and as an aside, don't bring up Audi and their AWD success in that short term racing episode like it's the 'answer'. Audi has consistently been a winner in ANY type of racing venture they undertake. When it comes to racing (R8, R10 back to the old 80's group b cars, hell back to the NSU grand prix cars) Audi brings it, and plays to win. This is a case of a stunning company, that is consistently considered to have the best engineering in the world. No matter what the engine combo (V8, V10 diesel, I5tt) and no matter the drivetrain position or layout they are successful. Because of the company, not the layout of the parts. You shortchange them immensely by attributing their success to such a narrow part of their racing resume.
03-15-2010, 03:54 AM
#46
Drifting
Only form dead stop and up to a certain speed. If I was cruising on a freeway on a ZR1 and these two cars came up beside me, its all over. These two cars are quicker, but not faster.
03-15-2010, 05:32 PM
#47
Audi R8 GT3 will finally end the Corvette dominance on road courses. It is just a matter of time. Their GT3 cars are lapping all the famous Euro tracks at very nearly the speed of the GT1 Corvettes. They are stomping the GTR's and the Lambo's and Astons.....they are currently RWD as the rules require. If [when] they build a GT2 or GT1 version look out. I am major fan of Corvette Racing and the ZR1 but this will soon be the world's best GT race car far ahead of Ferrari and Porsche.
03-15-2010, 05:46 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
I know everyone is ******* the ZR1 and it's old tech that can't possibly work, or at least not nearly as well as the alternative, but maybe there are two points everyone should come back to reality and remember before throwing the ZR1 in the garbage heap.
1. It WON the lap time race around the track. So much for all the AWD magic.
2. A set of sticky tires weigh a lot less and are a lot cheaper than adding a complete AWD system to the ZR1 and it would get back the infinitesimal amount it lost by in the straight line acceleration.
So, for review, a set of those nice Michelin's the GT2 or the Viper ACR run and the 911 Turbo wins NO performance category of that test. So go ahead and keep bench racing if it makes you feel better.
P.S. and as an aside, don't bring up Audi and their AWD success in that short term racing episode like it's the 'answer'. Audi has consistently been a winner in ANY type of racing venture they undertake. When it comes to racing (R8, R10 back to the old 80's group b cars, hell back to the NSU grand prix cars) Audi brings it, and plays to win. This is a case of a stunning company, that is consistently considered to have the best engineering in the world. No matter what the engine combo (V8, V10 diesel, I5tt) and no matter the drivetrain position or layout they are successful. Because of the company, not the layout of the parts. You shortchange them immensely by attributing their success to such a narrow part of their racing resume.
1. It WON the lap time race around the track. So much for all the AWD magic.
2. A set of sticky tires weigh a lot less and are a lot cheaper than adding a complete AWD system to the ZR1 and it would get back the infinitesimal amount it lost by in the straight line acceleration.
So, for review, a set of those nice Michelin's the GT2 or the Viper ACR run and the 911 Turbo wins NO performance category of that test. So go ahead and keep bench racing if it makes you feel better.
P.S. and as an aside, don't bring up Audi and their AWD success in that short term racing episode like it's the 'answer'. Audi has consistently been a winner in ANY type of racing venture they undertake. When it comes to racing (R8, R10 back to the old 80's group b cars, hell back to the NSU grand prix cars) Audi brings it, and plays to win. This is a case of a stunning company, that is consistently considered to have the best engineering in the world. No matter what the engine combo (V8, V10 diesel, I5tt) and no matter the drivetrain position or layout they are successful. Because of the company, not the layout of the parts. You shortchange them immensely by attributing their success to such a narrow part of their racing resume.
Love my ZR1 and my Audi.... But for totally different reasons....
And when Audi decides to race they go all the way... What was that quote in Independence Day about being able to kill them but they first have to get past their technology....LOL
03-15-2010, 10:07 PM
#50
Part of me thinks a Corvette with AWD can't be a Corvette. Then again, some Porsche purists probably thought the 959 was the end of the 911...
03-16-2010, 07:42 AM
#51
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In terms of handling, Porsche's new RWD 911 GT2 RS represents their best effort to date in the turbocharged 911 category. Lets see how well it does at the track using RWD.
03-16-2010, 08:09 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Just came across some specs on that car: 580 bhp and dropping 400lbs. That car is going to smoke anything Porsche has every produced around a roadcourse. AWD is not the answer. Just get lighter.
03-16-2010, 11:21 AM
#53
For example at last years 24Hrs of Spa [second most important GT race in Europe] a new R8 LMS GT3 finished just behind the winning GT1 Corvette............and ahead of all the other [14]
GT1 cars including Maserati MC12, GTR, Aston, Saleen S7, etc. This information is readily available on many, many world sports car racing sites. Audi will dominate most European GT series over Corvette and Maserati as those cars get older. Callaway, Luc Alphand, PK Carsport and others will fight the good fight with the GT1 and GT3 Corvettes.
Here are links to some of the many sites available for info.
www.fiagt.com
www.fiagt3.com
www.corvettemotorsport.com
www.planetlemans.com
GT1 cars including Maserati MC12, GTR, Aston, Saleen S7, etc. This information is readily available on many, many world sports car racing sites. Audi will dominate most European GT series over Corvette and Maserati as those cars get older. Callaway, Luc Alphand, PK Carsport and others will fight the good fight with the GT1 and GT3 Corvettes.
Here are links to some of the many sites available for info.
www.fiagt.com
www.fiagt3.com
www.corvettemotorsport.com
www.planetlemans.com
Last edited by FORGED DST; 03-16-2010 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spelling
03-16-2010, 08:16 PM
#54
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I'd say AWD isn't "always" the answer; however, it IS one of the possible tools. The ability of a computer based AWD stability/traction system to maximize vehicle acceleration and handling dynamics can be absolutely incredible. Likewise, a RWD sports car can also be designed to have incredible handling and acceleration dynamics. Both approaches (AWD/RWD) benefit from lighter weight.
If road conditions are not dry/grippy (everything else being equal), the AWD system is without question superior.
03-18-2010, 08:37 AM
#55
Le Mans Master
I agree ........ look at the Mosler that was on here a little while back. Car was lightweight and therfore bad to the bone with a stock LS7.
As I said before any car can be fast but to be quick it needs to be light.
However once you get by the obvious making a heavy car light can cost a lot more than just making it high HP fast.
Doug
03-19-2010, 09:40 AM
#56
Saying it again: weight distribution! Porsche 911´s have the "most traction oriented" one in the business, so the GT2RS will have no problems with RWD only!
And yes: it will destroy not only anything Porsche has built yet on a racetrack, but maybe anything ANYONE has built yet..
Remember: in objective testing (same magazine, same driver, no "ringers"), the "old" GT2 is still 5 secs faster on the Ring than the ZR1 and the GT-R...
If they really manage to shed 400 lbs, they might be coming close to the Gumpert Apollo´s record?
Best, Bernd
And yes: it will destroy not only anything Porsche has built yet on a racetrack, but maybe anything ANYONE has built yet..
Remember: in objective testing (same magazine, same driver, no "ringers"), the "old" GT2 is still 5 secs faster on the Ring than the ZR1 and the GT-R...
If they really manage to shed 400 lbs, they might be coming close to the Gumpert Apollo´s record?
Best, Bernd
03-19-2010, 10:05 AM
#57
Pro
Read the latest issue of Vette magazine. They addressed this idea and some others after talking to GM. Bottom line was because of economics, weight, expense and other reasons AWD is not going into the C7. Neither is a mid engine. Not in the next generation or the foreseeable future if ever. A twin turbo V6 was still however on the table. Not too thrilled about that. Check it out, interesting article.
Seems very interesting to me. With the drop in sales and aging U.S. population (white male and 54 is average demographic of a Corvette buyer), the future demographics here in the U.S. may be such that GM can't develop a market to sell as many cars as they would like. As a result, the make-up of the car is likely to morph. I believe the Autoweek article hinted that the C7 would be the last heritage looking Corvette.
This makes sense now that it has been reported that GM is taking design considerations from all of their worldwide design centers for the future Corvette (likely the C8). They may be aiming for a higher end market? Could they be wanting to take on Porsche head to head?
Very interesting. All I know is competition is a good thing for the consumer! Go get em General.
What do you guys think?
Scott
03-19-2010, 07:12 PM
#58
Safety Car
Yes, but read autoweek. The C7 is planned to have a short tenure. Just a modified C6. The C8 is open, but they are looking at v6 turbo, mid engine which makes me tend to believe they would consider AWD.
Seems very interesting to me. With the drop in sales and aging U.S. population (white male and 54 is average demographic of a Corvette buyer), the future demographics here in the U.S. may be such that GM can't develop a market to sell as many cars as they would like. As a result, the make-up of the car is likely to morph. I believe the Autoweek article hinted that the C7 would be the last heritage looking Corvette.
This makes sense now that it has been reported that GM is taking design considerations from all of their worldwide design centers for the future Corvette (likely the C8). They may be aiming for a higher end market? Could they be wanting to take on Porsche head to head?
Very interesting. All I know is competition is a good thing for the consumer! Go get em General.
What do you guys think?
Scott
Seems very interesting to me. With the drop in sales and aging U.S. population (white male and 54 is average demographic of a Corvette buyer), the future demographics here in the U.S. may be such that GM can't develop a market to sell as many cars as they would like. As a result, the make-up of the car is likely to morph. I believe the Autoweek article hinted that the C7 would be the last heritage looking Corvette.
This makes sense now that it has been reported that GM is taking design considerations from all of their worldwide design centers for the future Corvette (likely the C8). They may be aiming for a higher end market? Could they be wanting to take on Porsche head to head?
Very interesting. All I know is competition is a good thing for the consumer! Go get em General.
What do you guys think?
Scott
The reason the demographics are so high for the Corvette is because most people can't AFFORD the car until they are older!!! It isn't because the car doesn't perform.
When I bought my '91 new, they said the average buyer for the Corvette was in their mid-40's. Now, 20 years later the average buyer is 54...and the cars are >2x what I paid for my '91.
To keep the younger population interested in the Corvette, they need to LOWER the cost of the base model...plain and simple.
Of course, the demographics will fall some as the used cars are snatched up when they fall in the price range of these "younger" buyers.
The ZR1 is 4x what I spent on my '91...but still a bargain for what you get. But... again, how many 30-40 yr. olds make the kind of scratch to buy a ZR1? Not many! Which is why they have slowed in sales.
I've always thought that the ZR1 should be a completely different car from the rest of the Corvette line. The ZR1 should have been built as a rear mid-engine exotic ala the CERV3...
They could make some updates to the styling...but the top-end Corvette costing $100k + NEEDS to be different from the rest of the crowd!
As for your thoughts on the C7/C8 line...who knows except those on the inside. And they are not likely to tell anything for fear of losing their jobs.
Heritage can only get you so far. The new Ferrari looks NOTHING like the 1950's, 60's or 70's versions of their cars. And they sell the pi$$ out of them when a new model comes out. If you love the engineering, then as long as the form follows function and they walk circles around the competition, why NOT change the looks...drastically!
The C4 was a complete change from ANY of the previous models, and the C5/C6 was (again) completely different from the C4's.
AND ZORA WANTED AN AWD CORVETTE!!! He just couldn't get it past the bean-counters. If he had managed to do this back in the 60's/70's we would be wondering why ANYBODY would want to drive a RWD sports car...especially a Corvette!
It's all a matter of perspective...
03-19-2010, 10:29 PM
#59
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I would have to agree, that if they do not change their "original mission" started in the 1950's, they will be out of the game within a few years, which of course they will not let happen...
I noticed someone mentioned Ferrari's being the Pinnacle of race cars? I would say they won't be in the game before too long if they don't utilize the AWD system as well. Lamborghini, Porshe, Lexus's new LFA, GT-R... they all have AWD... drive extremely well, and very confidently.
Something many "readers/posters" fail to consider, is while most "track" times are very impressive around the Nurburgring, etc... these times are meaningless, and irrelevant to the everyday driver, which is 90% of all Corvette owners... not to mention, these differences are not enough to feel and say, "wow! that is so much faster!" lol...
Unfortunate to many old-schooler's, at the end of the day, all Chevy really cares about is producing a fast sports car, with the cheapest methods they can afford, while selling a lot of cars. Profits, nothing more... So, with that said, if they have to switch to "real" paddle shifters and AWD they absolutely will... and I personally think it would be a good move.
Sometimes you just have to accept new technology. It's simply better in most cases. AWD/Paddle Shifters in comparison to RWD/6SPD Manual is like a Plasma TV compared to an old wooden console TV... remember those? You actually had to get up to change the channel! lol...
Don't forget, most AWD systems are RWD 80% of the time, unless AWD is needed. I'm sure quite a few people here, at one time or another, wish they had a safety net like AWD in certain situations. Besides, if you really want to take her sideways, it can be done. Lambo's have no problem doing it, if you want to...
I think Chevy's best course of action should be to just introduce AWD as an option, as well as REAL Paddle Shifters, not those little cute buttons mounted on the steering wheel lol... BMW got this right with the M series IMO. They offer true manuals, and the SMG tranny. The SMG tranny is a tad intimidating at first to the older generation buyers, but anyone who knows how to drive both models well, knows the SMG is clearly the better, most efficient option. Too bad their designers think the "family sedan look" is the hip thing nowadays.
I noticed someone mentioned Ferrari's being the Pinnacle of race cars? I would say they won't be in the game before too long if they don't utilize the AWD system as well. Lamborghini, Porshe, Lexus's new LFA, GT-R... they all have AWD... drive extremely well, and very confidently.
Something many "readers/posters" fail to consider, is while most "track" times are very impressive around the Nurburgring, etc... these times are meaningless, and irrelevant to the everyday driver, which is 90% of all Corvette owners... not to mention, these differences are not enough to feel and say, "wow! that is so much faster!" lol...
Unfortunate to many old-schooler's, at the end of the day, all Chevy really cares about is producing a fast sports car, with the cheapest methods they can afford, while selling a lot of cars. Profits, nothing more... So, with that said, if they have to switch to "real" paddle shifters and AWD they absolutely will... and I personally think it would be a good move.
Sometimes you just have to accept new technology. It's simply better in most cases. AWD/Paddle Shifters in comparison to RWD/6SPD Manual is like a Plasma TV compared to an old wooden console TV... remember those? You actually had to get up to change the channel! lol...
Don't forget, most AWD systems are RWD 80% of the time, unless AWD is needed. I'm sure quite a few people here, at one time or another, wish they had a safety net like AWD in certain situations. Besides, if you really want to take her sideways, it can be done. Lambo's have no problem doing it, if you want to...
I think Chevy's best course of action should be to just introduce AWD as an option, as well as REAL Paddle Shifters, not those little cute buttons mounted on the steering wheel lol... BMW got this right with the M series IMO. They offer true manuals, and the SMG tranny. The SMG tranny is a tad intimidating at first to the older generation buyers, but anyone who knows how to drive both models well, knows the SMG is clearly the better, most efficient option. Too bad their designers think the "family sedan look" is the hip thing nowadays.
Last edited by corvette-wheels.com; 03-19-2010 at 10:33 PM.
