Hotmetal

You are right, I didn't affect GM bankruptcy. GM did it itself. But GM must wake up!! Maybe we will see it in the 2011 models.

Onerareviper

This comment is even funnier than your others.... Have you seen what a 2005 996TT that originally sold for around $120-$130K now goes for? Um, no? Maybe you should look that up before posting comments about the poor resale value of Corvettes.... Actually, the Vette stacks up REALLY well for percentage of resale vs initial investment. Matter of fact, it's probably near the top (or darn close) for sports cars.

If you want to lose close to a hundred grand in 4 years I can help you... Go out and buy that 997.2TT you've been dreaming of... Make sure you keep it in mint/low miles condition, and you'll be glad when I give you $50,000 in 2014. But you'll be soooo happy during those 4 years, who cares? The rich smell of fresh leather and perfectly spaced body panels will make you gizz on a daily basis. Heck, that's worth $100g's, right?

Jorday

LOL! Now that there is funny I don't care which side of this argument you're on.

Hotmetal

Here you can compare the resale value of 911 turbo 2010 & ZR1 2010
http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/porsche/...port?id=264129

http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/chevrole...port?id=252729

GeneCamaro

Honestly dude.... stop trolling this thread. I'd still love to hear your expert analysis on why the Porsche is a masterpiece of engineering compared to the ZR1. Please enlighten us.

I'll give you one more shot then it I'll hit the ignore button because you're a donk. Have a nice day.

GeneCamaro

It's crazy how all the trolls come to this forum. I think I know why.

Guibo

Yes, and I (along with others) have made counterpoints for which there are no responses. Yeah, I get it. You don't like the Porsche. Your lame attempts at likening it to a VW Beetle have been heard (twice). But don't be so presumptuous to think they're targeting your demographic and somehow falling short in performance/dollar, because that's not what they're about.
The McDonald's example is a perfectly good example. Some people will go through their entire lives on nothing more than a Big Mac. But to not see how a more expensive burger elsewhere could be worth it to someone else is pretty absurd. There are people out there who buy cars with no more deliberation than you or I choosing a burger; ie, for some people, the cost difference doesn't matter.
Take your bang-for-buck argument to its logical end, and you won't like what you find. Bang for buck means exactly that: most performance per dollar regardless of other factors. Let's put it another way: Is there a track out there where the ZR1 has beaten the Viper ACR?
Nothing about my posts are "smartass" so get off your high horse.

GeneCamaro

Huh?

Good burger analogy sir. That really hit home. ZR1 is a Big Mac and the 911 is a Whopper. Gotcha. Right on. Post some more articles.... at least those are quotable.

Onerareviper

They must be hungry....

vette6799

After several decades of marriage, some of us, given the choice between a woman and a supercar, might choose the latter. A high maintenance car is still a heck of a lot easier to deal with than a high maintenance woman, and you can put her in the garage at night, close the door and watch a football game. Or, as an Ferrari owner buddy of mine is sometimes wont to do, sit in the garage and stare at his toys.

Hotmetal

GeneCamaro, I own a ZR1 2010 and I also have a Porsche on order that will be delivered on May. In 30 years, I owned many cars and the ZR1 is my first American car.

So far, I have always doubted the quality of American cars. But, the collapse of the U.S. car industry just made me sad because it affects many workers in the USA and Canada. I bought a ZR1 to give GM a chance to prove to me they could make good cars and obviously, because the ZR1 is a nice looking car. I know that alone, I can't change the destiny of GM, but if several people do like me, maybe it could be different.

I sincerely hope that GM and Chrysler come back stronger with vehicles that meet consumer demand and gives a lesson to Europeans car makers. As I said, the ZR1 is my first American car and I just hope not to be disappointed.

jvp

Hell, I've no years of marriage and I'd take the latter. :-) But that wasn't the point of the other person's post. His general tone was, "Which car will get you more attention from the hot babes?" And that's a game I don't play.

Why care what others think of your car? That's something I've just never understood or grasped. The only person that needs to approve of your car is: you.

jas

yellerz51

The New Porsche 911 Turbo S
Unparalleled in Driving Dynamics and Efficiency

Porsche's engineers have developed their new top-of-the range sports car for the genuine sports car driver with the greatest demands in terms of performance and driving dynamics: the 911 Turbo S entering the market in both Coupé and Cabriolet guise.

The heart of this new model is of course its turbocharged flat-six power unit featuring two VTG turbochargers boosting output by another 30 bhp over the "regular" 911 Turbo to 530 bhp.

In addition to this extra power, Porsche's new top model comes as standard with all performance-enhancing components already featured in the 911 Turbo. As a result, the 911 Turbo S, at the highest level of performance imaginable, offers a wonderful example of Porsche Intelligent Performance: Despite the significant increase in power and dynamic driving qualities, the new 911 Turbo S consumes just 11.4 litres/100 km, equal to 24.8 mpg imp, exactly the same as the Porsche 911 Turbo, making this by far the most economical sports car in its class.

The 911 Turbo S comes as standard with the most sophisticated drivetrain technology Porsche has to offer: This new ultra-high-performance sports car naturally features the seven-speed Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (PDK, Double-Clutch Gearbox) conveying the power of the engine to Porsche's intelligent PTM Porsche Traction Management all-wheel-drive system.

PTV Porsche Torque Vectoring, to mention the next highlight, optimises the car's stability in bends to an even higher standard in conjunction with the mechanical rear axle differential.
The actual performance this makes possible on the road is quite simply phenomenal: The 911 Turbo S accelerates in 3.3 seconds from a standstill to 100 km/h and in 10.8 seconds to 200 km/h. Top speed is 315 km/h or 195 mph.

Stopping power is equally outstanding thanks to the PCCB Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes naturally fitted as standard and also offering the advantage of low weight and supreme resistance to fading.

More Pressure for More Power
Making its debut in autumn 2009, the current Porsche Turbo for the first time offers a brand-new power unit in the history of the 911 Turbo now going back no less than 35 years. Exactly what potential the new engine has to offer is borne out clearly by the first power upgrade now to be admired in the new 911 Turbo S: Modifications in intake valve control ensuring even more direct engine response and the increase in charge pressure by 0.2 to a maximum of 1.2 bar boost engine power by no less than 30 bhp, with maximum output from this turbocharged six-cylinder reaching 390 kW (530 bhp) from 6,250 – 6,750 rpm. At the same time peak torque is up 50 Newton-metres or 37 lb-ft to 700 Newton-metres/516 lb-ft maintained consistently all the way from 2,100 – 4,250 rpm.

The fuel/air mixture in the power unit of the 911 Turbo S is formed by homogeneous direct gasoline injection. For the first time the Porsche 911 Turbo S comes with an expansion intake manifold using the oscillation of air between the throttle butterfly and the intake valves to improve the cylinder charge. This exceptional operating principle improves the degree of engine efficiency and boosts engine output accordingly, with the further advantage of even lower fuel consumption under high load and at high speeds.

The two turbochargers with variable turbine geometry (VTG) exclusive to Porsche on the gasoline engine are absolutely unique. This turbocharger technology with variable turbine rotors enables both the 911 Turbo and the 911 Turbo S to run smoothly and reliably up to a maximum exhaust gas temperature of about 1,000° C or 1,830° F.

The supreme performance of the new model is clearly underlined by the particularly sporting sound of the engine. This is the result, particularly with the Sport- and Sport-Plus buttons pressed, of modified control of the turbocharger rotors and, respectively, the ignition angle. A clear visual sign of this increase in power and performance is the design of the engine compartment upgraded by an air filter housing made of carbon fibre and proudly bearing an aluminium trim cover with the model designation "turbo S".

Transmission of power by Double-Clutch Gearbox and all-wheel drive
Power is transmitted on the new 911 Turbo S in standard trim by a seven-speed Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (PDK) or Double-Clutch Gearbox. Again as a standard feature, the driver is able to shift gears manually on the steering wheel, by means of gearshift paddles on the three-spoke steering wheel.

This trendsetting transmission technology developed by Porsche for the first time back in the '80s and specially conceived for motorsport allows an extremely fast gearshift without the slightest interruption of traction, much faster acceleration as well as a more sporting and dynamic driving experience.

Gears 1– 6 come with a sporting and dynamic transmission ratio, the car reaching its top speed in sixth gear. Seventh gear has a longer ratio, reducing both engine speed and fuel consumption and at the same time enhancing sound comfort particularly on long distances.

Efficient and highly effective distribution of engine power is ensured by PTM Porsche Traction Management with the right kind of dynamic set-up appropriate for this kind of car. PTM combines the driving pleasure so typical of a Porsche with its engine mounted at the rear and rear-wheel drive with an even higher standard of driving stability, traction, and agile handling. To do this PTM feeds the optimum share of engine power in each situation to the front wheels by way of a multiple-plate clutch. Shifting from one power level to another in 100 milliseconds at the very most, PTM is faster than the engine itself in responding to a change in load and is also faster than the driver in his personal perception and recognition of driving conditions.

This means that for all practical purposes Porsche all-wheel drive is able to literally look ahead, which means superior agility on narrow country roads, outstanding traction and superior driving safety even in the most extreme manoeuvres at high speeds.

Given all these qualities, Porsche Traction Management is among the most efficient and, at the same time, lightest all-wheel-drive systems in the market.

Porsche Torque Vectoring for even more precise handling in bends
The Porsche 911 Turbo S comes as standard with PTV Porsche Torque Vectoring, a highly innovative system made up of a mechanical rear axle differential and variable power distribution on the rear wheels, with intervention of the brakes as required on the inner rear wheel whenever necessary.

Applying these functions, PTV not only improves the car's behaviour when steering into a bend, but also enhances driving dynamics and agility in consistently remaining on course round a bend, particularly on wet or snowbound surfaces. A further advantage is that PTV allows even higher speeds for even greater driving dynamics.
The mechanical differential lock included in the Porsche Torque Vectoring package comes with an asymmetric lock effect (22 per cent under power, 27 per cent in overrun) and offers, particularly when driving to the limit, even higher traction on changing surfaces, improved driving stability under load change in a bend, and enhanced agility in bends under high lateral acceleration.

As a result, PTV is the ideal match for PSM Porsche Stability Management: While PSM uses the brakes to stabilise the car, PTV applies the brakes to actively enhance driving dynamics. Precisely this is why PTV may also intervene in the brakes even when Porsche Stability Management is switched off (PSM OFF) in the interest of agile and dynamic driving behaviour.

Sports Chrono Package Turbo with dynamic engine mounts
The Sports Chrono Package Turbo including dynamic engine mounts naturally comes as standard on the new 911 Turbo S, offering the opportunity to enhance the car's performance to an even higher level. As usual, the driver has the choice also on the new, top-of-the-range model of the Sport- and Sport-Plus functions providing an even more sporting shift strategy for PTM, PSM, PASM, on the dynamic engine mounts and with PDK.

The Launch Control function enables the driver to accelerate with full power and speed from a standstill, the process of acceleration being controlled both through slip on the drive wheels and the controlled management of torque and pulling forces on the transmission clutch.

The overall package also comprises an analogue stopwatch on the instrument panel, the performance display in the PCM control unit, and an individual memory. It is rounded off, finally, by dynamic engine mounts using a magnetisable fluid and an electrically modifiable magnetic field to increase driving performance as well as motoring comfort and smoothness by varying the setting of the engine mounts. Depending on driving conditions, therefore, the mounts automatically vary in stiffness and their damping effect.

Active suspension with ceramic brakes and central wheel locks
The new 911 Turbo S comes largely with the same suspension as the 911 Turbo, thus offering a complete range of settings from very sporting to highly comfortable by means of the variable PASM damper system.

A further highlight is that the new 911 Turbo S comes as standard with PCCB Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes, using this high-tech material to ensure even faster brake response, a very high degree of fading stability thanks to a consistent level of friction, and very good resistance to corrosion. Despite the larger brake discs, therefore, PCCB brakes are approximately 18 kg or 40 lb lighter than the grey-cast-iron brakes featured as standard on the 911 Turbo.
Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes stand out clearly at very first sight through their yellow-painted brake callipers easy to identify by way of the 19-inch RS Spyder wheels with central locking bolts featured as standard.

Top level of equipment with bending lights and adaptive sports seats
The new 911 Turbo S comes with a wide range of features and equipment based on the outstanding level of equipment already featured on the 911 Turbo and supplemented by additional functional components exclusive to this very special model. As an example, the new 911 Turbo S is fitted as standard with dynamic bending lights featuring Porsche's striking headlight styling and double-lens projector.

Adjusting to the course of the road as of a speed of approximately 10 km/h, the headlights improve illumination of the road ahead and ensure better and earlier recognition of winding roads in particular, as well as possible obstacles in the dark. To ensure the widest possible illumination of an upcoming bend, the inner headlight in each bend may adjust by up to 15°, the outer headlight by up to 7° in its angle.

Experiencing the very dynamic character of the new 911 Turbo S, both the driver and front passenger enjoy adaptive sports seats with a memory function on the driver's seat, again naturally featured as standard. These seats offer even better side support and, in addition to the adjustment of all seat functions and the lumbar support, come with electrical adjustment of the side supports around the occupant's upper legs and hips.

The memory function comprises both exterior mirrors and all seat adjustments on the driver's side, with the exception of the side supports in the seats themselves.

Further improvements are cruise control as well as a six-CD/DVD changer integrated in PCM Porsche Communication Management.

Leather upholstery featured as standard in the new 911 Turbo S is available with two choices of twin-tone colours: Black/Cream and Black/Titanium Blue, with Black serving in both cases as the base colour.

On these new colour combinations both the door panels and the seat centre sections at the front and rear are finished in Cream and, respectively, Titanium Blue.

This highly attractive colour scheme is exclusive to the new 911 Turbo S and is rounded off by seat stitching in an appropriately matching colour.

Last but certainly not least, the 911 Turbo S is naturally available with virtually all special equipment and optional extras also available on the 911 Turbo

Jorday

Well I never said they were targeting my demographic and falling short. What I DID say is that although porsche does have some superior qualities, those happen to be things that I don't rank as highly as some other things when I look at a car. So that makes it what, 3 times that you've put words in my mouth and posted a response to something I didn't even say?

The McDonalds thing is dumb. Check the other responses because I'm not the only that thinks that either. You can't eat a ZR1 nor can you drive a burger.

Besides, with the extra piece of bread in the middle and the secret cause, the Big Mac has a rather fancy interior compared to most burgers. Maybe the Big Mac is the Porsche and the ZR1 is merely a double cheeseburger for 99 cents.
I can think of at least one track where the ZR1 has beaten the ACR, and it's called the 1/4 mile track.

I used to have an 08, and it is not faster from the ZR1 from a stop or any speed. Don't bother quoting magazine times here...I've driven both and happen to have owned both as well. The races have been done by me and many others. THE ZR1 IS FASTER THAN THE VIPER. In roll ons the ZR1 handily claims victory against cars that beat me every time in my viper. The same goes for braking. The ZR1 wins by a mile.

In addition, IIRC to achieve those lap times the ACR required changes to the stock front splitter or something which made the car not legal for street use, so do we question if the ACR is even capable of beating the ZR1 at the track in street legal trim? I guess we don't have to discuss how most guys would consider that modding the car.

Or maybe you want to just say that because the ACR bested the ZR1 on the road course, then it is hands down the winner and nothing else matters. But if we apply that same thought process to the Porsche vs ZR1 debate, the ZR1 wins and nothing else matters.

Notch

The burger analogy makes perfect sense.

vette6799

JAS,

I absolutely agree - I have never dissed anyone for what they drive or do or don't have. As far as the ladies go, if your drive is the reason they are hanging with you, that's every reason not to hang with them.

What bothers me is that a thread like this one, which started out as a rather congenial discussion, eventually erodes into "mine is bigger, faster, etc". than yours.

What makes sense to me would be to get a ZR1 and a 997.2 together and have some trusted third party take each car through its paces. We might then have something to sink our teeth into in terms of true performance figures.

Jorday

You might be right.

The porsche is comparable to a burger in that after some time passes all burgers turn into turds nobody wants that are worth only a tiny fraction of their initial value at best.

BTW jamie owns a GT2 and he even admits how poorly they do.

In a moment of clarity Hotmetal also admitted that Porsche resale value stinks. He then edited it out of his post almost immediately, but I saw him admit the truth before he changed it to some kbb nonsense.

jvp

And I think that's really what several of the Corvette fans here are saying. Car and Driver did its readers a bit of a disservice by comparing times from a 2009 ZR1 reported in their 2008 issue, to the times of a new Porsche 997.2 recorded reasonably recently.

That's a reasonably unfair move, and objectively, one has to ask, "Why did they do that? They had the ZR1 there... why not re-run the tests?" You, myself, and everyone else can run through a myriad of reasons why C/D did that, but in all honesty, we'll never know. Brian's point about pissing off "another German automaker" does have some merit. It's even interesting that C/D included that bit in the article... almost showing their hand a bit.

Their summary was spot-on though. The article won't sway anyone one way or the other. If you're interested in a Porsche, you're going to buy a Porsche. If you're interested in a ZR1, that's what you're going to buy. It is very unusual to find a cross-shopper between those two vehicles. It can happen, but it's rare.

All that said, we have to take a step back and again, look at this whole tread objectively. Firstly, we're on a Corvette discussion board. Most folks here are pretty damned passionate about the hunk of plastic wrapped around them. Corvette wouldn't have survived since '53 if that weren't the case.

With that noted, we have to pay attention to some of the participants of this thread. There are some well-known Porsche apologists/fans, that are so adamant about their support for the marque, that they really shouldn't be here on a Corvette forum. No one sees them as "the voice of reason". Those folks are as transparent as Casper the Friendly Ghost is; so much so they've actually been plonked by a few folks here.

But, that's just my humble opinion. :-)

jas

FloydSummerOf68

...do people buying 150k dollar cars honestly care about resale value when buying them? If so I'm not sure they could really afford the car to begin with.

I dont know a SINGLE PERSON who has bought a 100k+ car and even mentioned or cared what the resale of it was.

BTW, I also agree that the burger analogy was spot on for describing the situation.

Bwright

You do know that for all intents and purposes Porsche went bankrupt which is why it is now owned by VW right?