[ZR1] Porsche 911 Turbo beats ZR1 in comparison test
03-01-2010, 05:27 AM
#341
At higher prices. This small bit seems to escape a lot of Corvette criticizers' attention. GM can build nicer interiors than what's in the Corvette. But they cost more or weigh more, and will generally hurt the vehicle's performance value.
That's not Corvette's niche. If you don't like Corvette's niche, don't buy one. Your criticisms are heard. And ignored. Those of us that understand the engineering costs that went into the Corvette know that raising the price of the raw materials of the car will ultimately raise the MSRP of the vehicle.
jas
That's not Corvette's niche. If you don't like Corvette's niche, don't buy one. Your criticisms are heard. And ignored. Those of us that understand the engineering costs that went into the Corvette know that raising the price of the raw materials of the car will ultimately raise the MSRP of the vehicle.
jas
My criticisms aren't exactly ignored when GM themselves tout the improved interior quality of the Corvette. My criticisms aren't ignored when $70-190k Porsches outsell $70k+ Corvettes to the tune of 4:1 even in a bad year. There are others here besides me who have bought the car and they too say it could stand improving. All "bashers" too, huh.
Before the ZR1 was released, some people were saying Corvette shouldn't even occupy a $100k+ niche, do don't give me the niche argument. By pricing the ZR1 as they have, GM have put themselves squarely in premium car market territory...without the usual benefits that come with buying a premium car. Bang for buck? You already had that with the Z06 and the base C6 before that.
The price of raw materials vs expanding the Corvette into markets that have for decades shunned the Corvette on the basis of those raw materials. I don't see how making options available would make the base MSRP change one way or the other.
03-01-2010, 05:35 AM
#342
Burning Brakes
Take the Z06 MSRP (you agree is a bargain) and add the cost it would take to mod it to match the ZR1 performance (acceleration, braking, and cornering) and then throw in the cost of warrantying 638HP to 100K miles, what you get is an MSRP just north of $100K. THERE IS NO BUDGET FOR A PORSCHE INTERIOR!!!
It hasn't escaped our attention. We've already acknowledged it. That has apparently escaped your attention.
My criticisms aren't exactly ignored when GM themselves tout the improved interior quality of the Corvette. My criticisms aren't ignored when $70-190k Porsches outsell $70k+ Corvettes to the tune of 4:1 even in a bad year. There are others here besides me who have bought the car and they too say it could stand improving. All "bashers" too, huh.
Before the ZR1 was released, some people were saying Corvette shouldn't even occupy a $100k+ niche, do don't give me the niche argument. By pricing the ZR1 as they have, GM have put themselves squarely in premium car market territory...without the usual benefits that come with buying a premium car. Bang for buck? You already had that with the Z06 and the base C6 before that.
The price of raw materials vs expanding the Corvette into markets that have for decades shunned the Corvette on the basis of those raw materials. I don't see how making options available would make the base MSRP change one way or the other.
My criticisms aren't exactly ignored when GM themselves tout the improved interior quality of the Corvette. My criticisms aren't ignored when $70-190k Porsches outsell $70k+ Corvettes to the tune of 4:1 even in a bad year. There are others here besides me who have bought the car and they too say it could stand improving. All "bashers" too, huh.
Before the ZR1 was released, some people were saying Corvette shouldn't even occupy a $100k+ niche, do don't give me the niche argument. By pricing the ZR1 as they have, GM have put themselves squarely in premium car market territory...without the usual benefits that come with buying a premium car. Bang for buck? You already had that with the Z06 and the base C6 before that.
The price of raw materials vs expanding the Corvette into markets that have for decades shunned the Corvette on the basis of those raw materials. I don't see how making options available would make the base MSRP change one way or the other.
03-01-2010, 05:37 AM
#343
That is not true. It's the posters that miss the point of GM's design intent and then criticize them for a ****ty design. They did not set out to build a Porsche. They targeted people just like me who don't care so much about the interior and just want performance. I was actually impressed with the interior and build quality before I joined this forum!!! (you snobs)
I'm tired of hearing people bash a car that I think is designed perfectly as intended. I'm all about solving my problems, so I can't help but try to convince others to fix their own. Don't like the car? Don't buy it or sell it if you already have it!!!!
GM is well aware of what's out there and how to make their products better. Just look at all the "expert ideas" on a public forum? Now just imagine what sort of ideas an educated and experienced design team could brainstorm up before narrowing down to a final product that would meet their budget. AWD, PDK, and better leather?? Wow, you people are brilliant! I'm sure those ideas never crossed their minds.
The bottom line is those items didn't make the cut and I garantee you there was good reason. They build a $108K Corvette that dominates pretty much any roadcourse in the world without all the "high technology" gadgets. The competition will answer. Now, do you really think the C7 will not retake the crown and that they will not use those technologies if need be? Please. The ZR1 is absolutely brilliant.
I'm tired of hearing people bash a car that I think is designed perfectly as intended. I'm all about solving my problems, so I can't help but try to convince others to fix their own. Don't like the car? Don't buy it or sell it if you already have it!!!!
GM is well aware of what's out there and how to make their products better. Just look at all the "expert ideas" on a public forum? Now just imagine what sort of ideas an educated and experienced design team could brainstorm up before narrowing down to a final product that would meet their budget. AWD, PDK, and better leather?? Wow, you people are brilliant! I'm sure those ideas never crossed their minds.
The bottom line is those items didn't make the cut and I garantee you there was good reason. They build a $108K Corvette that dominates pretty much any roadcourse in the world without all the "high technology" gadgets. The competition will answer. Now, do you really think the C7 will not retake the crown and that they will not use those technologies if need be? Please. The ZR1 is absolutely brilliant.
They can still target you, and cater to a market that demands more. Best of both worlds, no?
So what you're saying is that the Pontiac Aztek, the $100k XLR-V, etc. all made the cut due to "good reasons?" Please. GM is as fallible as any other company. Perhaps even more so given their recent state of affairs. Porsche as well have made some crap decisions in order to cut costs.
03-01-2010, 05:43 AM
#344
Burning Brakes
Who said the ZR1 is a ****ty design? I didn't say that. Relax.
They can still target you, and cater to a market that demands more. Best of both worlds, no?
So what you're saying is that the Pontiac Aztek, the $100k XLR-V, etc. all made the cut due to "good reasons?" Please. GM is as fallible as any other company. Perhaps even more so given their recent state of affairs. Porsche as well have made some crap decisions in order to cut costs.
They can still target you, and cater to a market that demands more. Best of both worlds, no?
So what you're saying is that the Pontiac Aztek, the $100k XLR-V, etc. all made the cut due to "good reasons?" Please. GM is as fallible as any other company. Perhaps even more so given their recent state of affairs. Porsche as well have made some crap decisions in order to cut costs.
Are you proposing that GM could have built an essentially "Porsche TT clone with the looks of a Corvette" and offer it for the same price as a ZR1?
03-01-2010, 05:48 AM
#345
Take the Z06 MSRP (you agree is a bargain) and add the cost it would take to mod it to match the ZR1 performance (acceleration, braking, and cornering) and then throw in the cost of warrantying 638HP to 100K miles, what you get is an MSRP just north of $100K. THERE IS NO BUDGET FOR A PORSCHE INTERIOR!!!
A Porsche interior wouldn't cost that much more to produce. A lot of the price has to do with Porsche's premium status in the market: Porsche continues to charge that because people continue to pay it. Truth be told, the base Porsche interior is not leagues above what you get in an Audi A4. You seriously think it cost them thousands of dollars to spray some of those plastic pieces to look like metal? C'mon, get real.
03-01-2010, 05:55 AM
#346
Burning Brakes
Considering Ron Fellows knocked 4 seconds off a 1:3x lap with just a change to PS2's on the Z06, it wouldn't take that much effort to meet the ZR1 on overall driving performance.
A Porsche interior wouldn't cost that much more to produce. A lot of the price has to do with Porsche's premium status in the market: Porsche continues to charge that because people continue to pay it. Truth be told, the base Porsche interior is not leagues above what you get in an Audi A4. You seriously think it cost them thousands of dollars to spray some of those plastic pieces to look like metal? C'mon, get real.
A Porsche interior wouldn't cost that much more to produce. A lot of the price has to do with Porsche's premium status in the market: Porsche continues to charge that because people continue to pay it. Truth be told, the base Porsche interior is not leagues above what you get in an Audi A4. You seriously think it cost them thousands of dollars to spray some of those plastic pieces to look like metal? C'mon, get real.
... back on topic:
If it really is that cheap to make a Porsche interior, then why do so many people praise it? (and this reinforces my hate of their arrogance)
03-01-2010, 05:57 AM
#347
It wouldn't be the same price. But it wouldn't be much more. Look at what Caravaggio does for Corvette interiors. Now reduce the price because of the sheer volume that GM can deal with (4876 Z06s and ZR1s).
03-01-2010, 06:14 AM
#348
Ah ha! Ok, so if you're going to claim the Z06 is that close to a ZR1 then you are going to admit your beloved GTR is closer to the Z06 in class than the ZR1! (off topic and wrong thread I know) I say any mod I can make at Walmart is a mod I can use to bench race any other car.
... back on topic:
If it really is that cheap to make a Porsche interior, then why do so many people praise it? (and this reinforces my hate of their arrogance)
... back on topic:
If it really is that cheap to make a Porsche interior, then why do so many people praise it? (and this reinforces my hate of their arrogance)
People praise it because it looks befitting of a $130k car with that performance and overall build quality and detail attention to subjective qualities that even GM themselves have tried to pursue. Part of it is the design. They say that good design doesn't necessarily cost more than bad design. But bad design can cost a lot. Another part of it is that if you want it to look and feel a certain way (materials), Porsche offers those as options. You may find it hard to fathom because your value system is different, but others look at the standard ZR1, look at the $100k price tag, look at the options list, and ask: "Is that it?" before moving on to the Porsche dealership. For 1400 people last year, that was enough. For many more thousands, it wasn't.
03-01-2010, 06:27 AM
#349
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03-01-2010, 06:31 AM
#350
Burning Brakes
Yes, it is the wrong thread. But to the point: on similar tires, all 3 would appear to deliver similar lap times. Except with the GT-R, given its weight and power, it shouldn't be even close. It should be in CTS-V territory. But we know better than that, don't we. Just because I don't think a GT-R can do no better than to run with a CTS-V doesn't make it "my beloved." If you want to pursue this tangent further, send me a PM.
People praise it because it looks befitting of a $130k car with that performance and overall build quality and detail attention to subjective qualities that even GM themselves have tried to pursue. Part of it is the design. They say that good design doesn't necessarily cost more than bad design. But bad design can cost a lot. Another part of it is that if you want it to look and feel a certain way (materials), Porsche offers those as options. You may find it hard to fathom because your value system is different, but others look at the standard ZR1, look at the $100k price tag, look at the options list, and ask: "Is that it?" before moving on to the Porsche dealership. For 1400 people last year, that was enough. For many more thousands, it wasn't.
People praise it because it looks befitting of a $130k car with that performance and overall build quality and detail attention to subjective qualities that even GM themselves have tried to pursue. Part of it is the design. They say that good design doesn't necessarily cost more than bad design. But bad design can cost a lot. Another part of it is that if you want it to look and feel a certain way (materials), Porsche offers those as options. You may find it hard to fathom because your value system is different, but others look at the standard ZR1, look at the $100k price tag, look at the options list, and ask: "Is that it?" before moving on to the Porsche dealership. For 1400 people last year, that was enough. For many more thousands, it wasn't.
They need to really deck out the next XLR-V and make it the "pimped out ZR1" we've been talking about. Keep Chevrolet "Chevy". That's why I love it.
03-01-2010, 08:44 AM
#351
Melting Slicks
Yes, it is the wrong thread. But to the point: on similar tires, all 3 would appear to deliver similar lap times. Except with the GT-R, given its weight and power, it shouldn't be even close. It should be in CTS-V territory. But we know better than that, don't we. Just because I don't think a GT-R can do no better than to run with a CTS-V doesn't make it "my beloved." If you want to pursue this tangent further, send me a PM.
03-01-2010, 09:27 AM
#352
Burning Brakes
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ABSOLUTELY. You see it is very clear what the Corvette engineers set out to do with the base C6, Z06, and ZR-1: maximize performance per dollar. This is what this car has always been about. Porsche cannot build a car that outperforms a Corvette for the same price. (<--- period)
You really think Porsche CANNOT build a car that has corvette performance for the same price? Maybe they chose not to so they could be the most profitable car company in the world while GM went to the bottom? Porsche is not Chevy, just like Mercedes is not Honda, Caddy is not Volkswagen...etc. Building affordable performance cars offering best bang for the buck is NOT what Porsche is about. I mean I get a GTR for alot less than a F430 or Gallardo, does that make me stupid if I got a Ferrari/Lambo over a Nissan because my Ferrari/Lambo is slower than a Nissan and I spent more? If I got BMW 530 over a Chevy Impala, does that make me dumb because I didn't get the best bang for my buck? Come on guys, we live and drive in the real world where 0-60, 1/4 mile and lap times don't account for everything. There are people out there that put creature comfort, experiences at the dealer, overall driving experience over who was a second faster on a track during a magazine comparison. 
Disclaimer: I owned a C5Z now I have a 997TT, if I had the $$ I'd have a white ZR1 next to the Porsche in the garage.
Last edited by NeverT00Fast; 03-01-2010 at 09:47 AM.
03-01-2010, 10:02 AM
#353
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I don't know if they want to enter the more expensive territory to appease those many more thousands. The ZR1 is now the Halo car for Chevrolet. It symbolizes high performance and reliability for a fraction of the cost of it's competitors. Even at $100K it still represents a very high bang for the buck. Hell, it was chasing and trying to pass a $500K Lambo SV not too long ago on Youtube. People see that and the price tag and realize how much GM can do with so little. It reflects their entire product line, at least that's the intended perception. I wouldn't add another $20K of nonperformance upgrades.
They need to really deck out the next XLR-V and make it the "pimped out ZR1" we've been talking about. Keep Chevrolet "Chevy". That's why I love it.
They need to really deck out the next XLR-V and make it the "pimped out ZR1" we've been talking about. Keep Chevrolet "Chevy". That's why I love it.
Back on point with the comparison between the two cars...
One thing that's been completely overlooked is the fact that you can drive the Turbo year round. Unless your in a nice place in the country where it's warm all the time there is a good chance that your rapidly depreciating asset sits waiting for a day to come out and play.
The Turbo on the other hand was built to run year round. Hot, cold, rain or snow. Consider how much engineering effort and cost it takes to pull off an all weather car that can hang with the ZR1? I am not suggesting that the ZR1 needs to be AWD just that the system brings tangible benefits beyond improving the launch. You do pay extra for it but at least you can get something more out of the car that you can't in the ZR1. Imagine if the ZR1 had an option that said "365 days per year use"?
03-01-2010, 10:45 AM
#354
Instructor
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I think the rest of participant in this thread are doing a good job in this discussion .. Just read .
Period
03-01-2010, 10:59 AM
#355
Melting Slicks
You and others have asked if anything on the Porsche makes it worth the premium over the ZR1. I and others have explained it to you. If you don't want to accept it on the basis that it means nothing to you, fine. But don't be so presumptuous as to assume that everyone else must have your same exact value system.
Are you so desperate to prove to us that the Turbo is better that you've resorted to this? If you're going to resort to crap like that please press X in the upper right corner of your browser. And don't come back now, ya hear?
Last edited by Jorday; 03-01-2010 at 11:58 AM.
03-01-2010, 11:07 AM
#356
Safety Car
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What year was that 997 Turbo? The early 997 Turbo's handling is not nearly as well sorted out as the 997.2 Turbo's.
03-01-2010, 11:10 AM
#357
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Which car(Porsche or ZR1) will do a better job attracting young(under 30) beautiful American women.
My guess is the Porsche.
03-01-2010, 11:13 AM
#358
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It is indeed a masterpiece of engineering. It is straight to the point. All these other wishy-washy intangibles like "build-quality" and "driver feel" are bullsh!t my friend. Just a marketing scheme that companies like Porsche, Ferrari, and Lamborghini use to make rich ****** feel like they have something special (where else is the money going to go, right?). When I drive my C6Z, I swear it feels like the baddest car on the planet. I know that all my money went in to squeezing as much performance in to the car that I could afford. What's even better is that the Corvette engineers gave me a platform that is so cheap and easy to modify, that I could run with any of the high end exotics if I decide I need more.
It absolutely pisses me off to see so much disrespect of the hard work that my fellow American engineers put in at GM. You praise German engineering and criticize American engineering (notice all 3 of the American companies have a similar approach - cost effective and to the point)?
Do yourself a favor and sell that piece of **** corvette you have in your avatar and go buy one of those brilliant pieces of German craftsmanship! You will be so much happier. Let us know how great it makes your pampered little *** feel as you can finally take a deep breath without those icky cabin smells.
It absolutely pisses me off to see so much disrespect of the hard work that my fellow American engineers put in at GM. You praise German engineering and criticize American engineering (notice all 3 of the American companies have a similar approach - cost effective and to the point)?
Do yourself a favor and sell that piece of **** corvette you have in your avatar and go buy one of those brilliant pieces of German craftsmanship! You will be so much happier. Let us know how great it makes your pampered little *** feel as you can finally take a deep breath without those icky cabin smells.
I would love to do myself a favor and sell it ... But you did forget something ... That "Piece of ****" as you call it ... has no resell value what so ever
Secondly .. your master piece of engineering needed 155hp to beat a "lousily" (resultant of your statement) engineered Nissan with a fraction of a second !!
talk about masterpieces .... 
Talk about asses ... Driving a Corvette will never make you a man with a "Harder Bigger ***" ...
..... it's will simply give spinal pain due to it's cheap suspension/seats setup ... Thirdly ... reading your obsession of your Z06 and me having owned the car for 4 yrs ... Sir you obviously have not driven a Ferrari, Porsche, Audi R8 ... etc.. Do yourself a favor and rent one for a day to know what the hell you are missing ... life is short my friend .. Stop fooling yourself these cars are more than Fit/Finish.
Lastly ... I don't give a crab if it's American or European .. all I care about is my money and where to spend ...
.. We had enough of this crap already .. no wonder all of American Car industry went into bankruptcy .....
03-01-2010, 11:20 AM
#359
Melting Slicks
If you're buying a sports car in order to go cruising for chicks get yourself a used ferrari 360 or a gallardo. The porsche would be invisible next to either of those.
03-01-2010, 12:53 PM
#360
Pro
