[Z06] Then End of the Corvette - New EPA standards to be announced.
05-19-2009, 02:42 PM
#41
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Gosh, why is everybody so afraid. I thought American's were up for a challenge, a fight, change? We went to the Moon and contributed to Internet, GPS, Computing, and Aerospace.
Instead of "it can't be done", "its socialism", "my beloved car will be no more", "give me another W",...
American's can meet any challenge. We can design a car that smokes today's Vette with less weight and better fuel economy. How about a Lotus Exige on steroids? Pure drivers car - not as big, advantageous on small tracks, slalom. How about Turbo's? Then we can boost it cheap like the imports, and keep up at altitude too. Tesla? How about max Torque at 0rpm
What about reducing our dependence on oil. Ok, so you dont believe in Global warming or just care less about anything other than your needs in the next - say 1 quarter, it'd sure be nice for all those $Billions to stay in US supplying energy, jobs, infrastructure, investment. Now its buying GT-Rs and Lambo's for teenagers in Saudi Arabia - while our kids work McDonalds and wonder if there's any future even with a College Degree.
Finally, why does everyone need an 8,000Ib vehicle to move an average of 110Ib Soccer Mom? As an Engineer I find the efficiency of that appalling. Sure, work trucks are important, few people need towing, and large families could benefit from a MiniVan, but most Americans in a lifted truck (how do you load the bed?) with cattle guard (gosh, might hit a pedestrian) or "rugged" SUV are just giving in to peer pressure and big is better - "playground pyschology".
Performance is alive and well in Europe and Japan and I think it will be in America. America is built on change, moving forward, and embracing the future.
Instead of "it can't be done", "its socialism", "my beloved car will be no more", "give me another W",...
American's can meet any challenge. We can design a car that smokes today's Vette with less weight and better fuel economy. How about a Lotus Exige on steroids? Pure drivers car - not as big, advantageous on small tracks, slalom. How about Turbo's? Then we can boost it cheap like the imports, and keep up at altitude too. Tesla? How about max Torque at 0rpm
What about reducing our dependence on oil. Ok, so you dont believe in Global warming or just care less about anything other than your needs in the next - say 1 quarter, it'd sure be nice for all those $Billions to stay in US supplying energy, jobs, infrastructure, investment. Now its buying GT-Rs and Lambo's for teenagers in Saudi Arabia - while our kids work McDonalds and wonder if there's any future even with a College Degree.
Finally, why does everyone need an 8,000Ib vehicle to move an average of 110Ib Soccer Mom? As an Engineer I find the efficiency of that appalling. Sure, work trucks are important, few people need towing, and large families could benefit from a MiniVan, but most Americans in a lifted truck (how do you load the bed?) with cattle guard (gosh, might hit a pedestrian) or "rugged" SUV are just giving in to peer pressure and big is better - "playground pyschology".
Performance is alive and well in Europe and Japan and I think it will be in America. America is built on change, moving forward, and embracing the future.
05-19-2009, 02:53 PM
#42
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GM needs to start planning Vette for the long haul instead of pushing the current limitations because now instead of already having a platform to go off of that is already small and light, they are going to have to re-invent the wheel and start from scratch with something completely new. Instead of them planning these past few years for something bigger and more powerful, they should have seen this coming. Like in pool, you don't think just about the next shot, you think two, three, four shots ahead. They knew these regulations were coming in 2020.... start with something now and have them refined by 2020 instead of starting in 2020
Last edited by Supratt6s; 05-19-2009 at 03:00 PM.
05-19-2009, 02:56 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
Well done. The 2009 Smart car gets an EPA average of 36 mpg. The new car standard for 2016 demands 39 mpg for cars. Think smaller indeed.
The Vette's current combined EPA rating for the entry V8 is 20.5. So it would have to basically DOUBLE its current EPA rating to meet the 2016 standard. How easy is this? Well, the relatively humble 173 hp 4-cylinder Saturn Sky gets an EPA average of 23 mpg. That's how far the gap in performance is just to go from 20 to 23 mpg. Even with DSG (currently too expensive), direct injection and a costly aluminum frame a manufacturer cannot inexpensively make the jump from a 20 mpg average to something approaching 39 mpg.
It's a brave new world and the Corvette's place in it will likely be difficult for the faithful to countenance.
05-19-2009, 03:12 PM
#44
My 2009 CTS has a Direct Injected V6 that has 304HP/274Ftlb torque.
Thats a respectable hp/torque number for a bread-butter V8 and has the fuel economy comparable to a 4-Banger.
GM could build a snarling monster Direct Injected V8 that could meet or exceed the 35mph figure and have the horsepower and torque numbers we all expect the Corvette to have.
Thoughts?!?
Thats a respectable hp/torque number for a bread-butter V8 and has the fuel economy comparable to a 4-Banger.
GM could build a snarling monster Direct Injected V8 that could meet or exceed the 35mph figure and have the horsepower and torque numbers we all expect the Corvette to have.
Thoughts?!?
05-19-2009, 03:19 PM
#45
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
Just remember, common sense is not so common, especially in washington dc!
Ideally, vote out both parties, start over.
Realistically, vote for the lesser of the two evils.
Ideally, vote out both parties, start over.
Realistically, vote for the lesser of the two evils.
05-19-2009, 03:23 PM
#46
Safety Car
I believe the problem lies not in the CAFE regulations but in how the current admin. is deliberately lying about what it's really doing and NOT really doing a good job of hiding it... almost saying look what I'm doing and there is nothing you can do about it.
I wonder those that voted because he was a "great public speaker" now understand that it takes more than a telaprompter to be a good president. And with the morons in congress and justices that instead of actually reinforcing our constitution are interjecting their own politcal views, we are in one bad spot that WE THE PEOPLE can get ourselves out of it.
It seem the issues that formed the path to our independence from great britain are now being formulated and WE CANNOT DO A THING ABOUT IT? This is America.... not communist china.
I wonder those that voted because he was a "great public speaker" now understand that it takes more than a telaprompter to be a good president. And with the morons in congress and justices that instead of actually reinforcing our constitution are interjecting their own politcal views, we are in one bad spot that WE THE PEOPLE can get ourselves out of it.
It seem the issues that formed the path to our independence from great britain are now being formulated and WE CANNOT DO A THING ABOUT IT? This is America.... not communist china.
05-19-2009, 03:24 PM
#47
Melting Slicks
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This will be the end for the aftermarket car parts industry, the professional racing industry, the amatuer racing industry, of which I participate.
This will be the end of the recreational vehicle industry, motor homes, off-roading, motor sports, etc, of which both my Corvettes are a part of.
It will be the end of this forum...
This will be the end of the recreational vehicle industry, motor homes, off-roading, motor sports, etc, of which both my Corvettes are a part of.
It will be the end of this forum...
05-19-2009, 03:31 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
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Over the last few years, thread after thread on this forum has been MANGLED into a rabbit hole political discussion by the most utterly blind and ignorant politicos which can only be described as blatant left and or right wing propaganda, sensationalism, and bordering on extremism.
05-19-2009, 03:35 PM
#49
Safety Car
Thread Starter
05-19-2009, 03:36 PM
#50
I brought the Vette back from lunch....Always feels good the get her out. I spent 5 hours detailing yesterday & it looks great. What a shame it will be to be driving around in little econbox death traps. I guess we as Americans first have to be willing to buy this crap. I for one will not be in line for little **** boxes
05-19-2009, 03:39 PM
#51
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Enjoy it while you can
That's it boys... Enjoy it while you can. Just like the steam engine, our way of having fun is on its way out. Enjoy the next decade. The rickshaw culture is upon us. 
05-19-2009, 04:36 PM
#54
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ENOUGH IS ENOUGH from all of you polarizing political bandwagoners.
Over the last few years, thread after thread on this forum has been MANGLED into a rabbit hole political discussion by the most utterly blind and ignorant politicos which can only be described as blatant left and or right wing propaganda, sensationalism, and bordering on extremism.
Just off the top of my head, here is a list of complete and utter bull**** in your post:
Cars must meet 39 MPG as a CAFE average. Between trucks and cars the average is 35.5. This is not a minimum and does not prevent a manufacturer from making (especially low in volume) vehicles that accomplish less than this fuel economy.
Terrible example. Weight has negligible impact on fuel economy for long distance trips at sustained speeds. Aerodynamics, rolling friction, and the underlying motor's efficiency at the specific travel speeds have the most significant impacts.
So, I will counterpoint your terrible attempt at sensationalizing CAFE related law changes by saying it would encourage manufacturers to do two things: produce cars with optimal aerodynamic characteristics, and reduce weight. Oh hey, look at that, two things that we sports car enthusiasts would love to see more R&D efforts put into... fancy that.
MANY factors make this a non concern:
1) The proportion of such vehicles on the road is low, see above re: CAFE
2) There are already described exceptions to CAFE, commercial being one of them
3) Why do we care about the handicap equipped and commercial/professional vehicles having low power high efficiency power trains? What does this have to do with sports cars? NOTHING.
Yes, because the aftermarket has _never_ adapted to changing technology before...
And motorsports? Cmon man, you really should be ashamed of yourself...
A) This law has nothing to do with impacting motorsports as far as I know, and;
B) Even if it did, all competitive motorsports involve classifications and rules, let's say hypothetically there was a blanket emission rule applied to a motorsport series you participate in... Oh no! A rule change! Happens all the time. What do you do? You re-evaluate the rules and come up with what you believe to be the optimal design that fits into those rules and provides you with a competitive advantage. Formula One might be the best example, the rules change significantly EVERY YEAR. If anything this drives activity in motorsport, and drives the industries that support motorsport. To say that motorsport would die is one of the most asinine things I've ever read.
Some other comments:
This is already law, it is the schedule that is being accelerated. If you happen to live in California, this has been on the cards for quite some time and nothing is different. This is setting a single federal standard that is the same as California's plans, which is a good thing. It does nobody any good to have multiple different standards across the country. Simpler is better and cheaper in this regard.
At the end of the day, necessity drives technological advancement. Always has, always will (see: WW2). Until laws are passed that explicitly prohibit specific levels of performance capability, you are simply being intellectually dishonest by saying that law changes like this one will destroy motorsport industries and performance/sportscar hobbies in general.
Just face it, you're spouting bull**** sensational and polarizing nonsense, suggesting all manner of horrifying scenarios will eventuate, then pointing the blame for things that have not happened and will not happen at someone or something that furthers your own political bearing and/or agenda. Shameful!
Over the last few years, thread after thread on this forum has been MANGLED into a rabbit hole political discussion by the most utterly blind and ignorant politicos which can only be described as blatant left and or right wing propaganda, sensationalism, and bordering on extremism.
Just off the top of my head, here is a list of complete and utter bull**** in your post:
Cars must meet 39 MPG as a CAFE average. Between trucks and cars the average is 35.5. This is not a minimum and does not prevent a manufacturer from making (especially low in volume) vehicles that accomplish less than this fuel economy.
Terrible example. Weight has negligible impact on fuel economy for long distance trips at sustained speeds. Aerodynamics, rolling friction, and the underlying motor's efficiency at the specific travel speeds have the most significant impacts.
So, I will counterpoint your terrible attempt at sensationalizing CAFE related law changes by saying it would encourage manufacturers to do two things: produce cars with optimal aerodynamic characteristics, and reduce weight. Oh hey, look at that, two things that we sports car enthusiasts would love to see more R&D efforts put into... fancy that.
MANY factors make this a non concern:
1) The proportion of such vehicles on the road is low, see above re: CAFE
2) There are already described exceptions to CAFE, commercial being one of them
3) Why do we care about the handicap equipped and commercial/professional vehicles having low power high efficiency power trains? What does this have to do with sports cars? NOTHING.
Yes, because the aftermarket has _never_ adapted to changing technology before...And motorsports? Cmon man, you really should be ashamed of yourself...
A) This law has nothing to do with impacting motorsports as far as I know, and;
B) Even if it did, all competitive motorsports involve classifications and rules, let's say hypothetically there was a blanket emission rule applied to a motorsport series you participate in... Oh no! A rule change! Happens all the time. What do you do? You re-evaluate the rules and come up with what you believe to be the optimal design that fits into those rules and provides you with a competitive advantage. Formula One might be the best example, the rules change significantly EVERY YEAR. If anything this drives activity in motorsport, and drives the industries that support motorsport. To say that motorsport would die is one of the most asinine things I've ever read.
Some other comments:
This is already law, it is the schedule that is being accelerated. If you happen to live in California, this has been on the cards for quite some time and nothing is different. This is setting a single federal standard that is the same as California's plans, which is a good thing. It does nobody any good to have multiple different standards across the country. Simpler is better and cheaper in this regard.
At the end of the day, necessity drives technological advancement. Always has, always will (see: WW2). Until laws are passed that explicitly prohibit specific levels of performance capability, you are simply being intellectually dishonest by saying that law changes like this one will destroy motorsport industries and performance/sportscar hobbies in general.
Just face it, you're spouting bull**** sensational and polarizing nonsense, suggesting all manner of horrifying scenarios will eventuate, then pointing the blame for things that have not happened and will not happen at someone or something that furthers your own political bearing and/or agenda. Shameful!
05-19-2009, 04:40 PM
#55
Melting Slicks
What you guys are all forgetting is that they had cars (V8's) in the 50's and 60's that were making almost 50 mpg that leaked out into the public market although far and inbetween. The ones that were out there got yanked back in and were modified to reflect the mileage all the "normal cars" were getting then. Talk to any old timer and theyll tell you about the cadillacs etc.
On that note what I am saying is have some hope. Gm or any manufactorer definately has the technology to make a 500 hp 40 mpg monster. they just havent used it yet because they didnt need to. Do you really think that every time they come out with a new supercar they give it there all and lay all there cards on the table. Of course not. they are always 3 steps ahead of what they are presenting at the moment. So hang in there. Things may get rough before they get better but I dont think its the end just yet.
On that note what I am saying is have some hope. Gm or any manufactorer definately has the technology to make a 500 hp 40 mpg monster. they just havent used it yet because they didnt need to. Do you really think that every time they come out with a new supercar they give it there all and lay all there cards on the table. Of course not. they are always 3 steps ahead of what they are presenting at the moment. So hang in there. Things may get rough before they get better but I dont think its the end just yet.
05-19-2009, 04:51 PM
#56
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I usually try to refrain from posting in these threads as it make me lose respect for a large portion of people in general. Their are so called "sackriders" that love to justify their political decision by bad mouthing the candidate they didn't choose. This thread is a prime example.
Honestly, if this is the biggest of your worries some of you people need to open your eyes and pull your head out you know where. Corvette's aren't going to go away any time soon...they have weathered through tough times before. If its so bad buy another one now and you are set. Myself, I would be alot more worried if indeed you still have a job 5yrs from now or if you even have a 401k left.
I also would say I have to agree 110% with what McMung stated..."necessity drives technological advancement" Having worked in this industry being an engineer and having to conform to changes quite often this is the bleeding truth.
Instead of blaming Obama for all evil why not the individual who created a large portion of this problem...I am sure most know who I speak of. But then again one man isn't responsible for the actions of our automakers and country.
Sitting and reading some of these comments is just comical of how oblivious some people are. I don't agree with all thats happening, I am sure most don't. I can see though that many people do need help seeing the light of day though...since obviously the sky is falling now and the so called tree hugger democrat is out to ruin the world. I am neither Republican nor Democrat...I vote on the basis who is the best candidate at hand. With that said, I recall this...8yrs of Clinton was demolished by 8yrs of Bush. That to some may be an unsubstantiated statement but then again their isn't a lack of those in this thread. \rant
Good day.
05-19-2009, 05:20 PM
#57
05-19-2009, 05:42 PM
#58
Safety Car
05-19-2009, 05:45 PM
#59
Race Director
For me, this is simple. When the government starts to regulate or influence the products coporations make for our "capitalistic society," they have stepped over the line. This has been done several times and I guess it boils down to what line you, me and others are most interested in to spark some protest. Personally, this is enough for me and I'll be paying a lot of attention to what moves forward from here. As much as I hate to say it, it is fine if the government wants to reduce our oil usuage by taxing our gasoline at a higher rate to pay for green technologies and energy. It is not okay for them to dictate that my next car has to be a 35mpg econobox. If I want to pay the 10, 15, or 20 dollars a gallon for gas, it should be my choice. Either way, it is interesting how the republicans and the democrats have successfully banded together to get us to where we are right now. No two ways about this, they worked very well together over the last several years and have us just where they want us. Time for us to rework their thinking.
05-19-2009, 05:50 PM
#60
First, all this Chicken Little knee-jerk reaction stuff really does wear thin, folks. It is not the case that any/every single proposal to change the way the world's auto industry operates spells the death of the Corvette.
Second, read it again. The 35 mpg number is CAFE, not "every car" That's a big, big difference.
("...as well as require an overall or industry average fuel efficiency standard at 35.5 miles per gallon." - Associated Press)
That leaves PLENTY of room for Corvettes (that already gets pretty good mileage as it is - for what it is.) Reduce the weight, reduce the power (but keep the power-to-weight ratio), add direct injection and you have a car that will fit into the CAFE picture just fine, thanks.
Relax.
Z//
Second, read it again. The 35 mpg number is CAFE, not "every car" That's a big, big difference.
("...as well as require an overall or industry average fuel efficiency standard at 35.5 miles per gallon." - Associated Press)
That leaves PLENTY of room for Corvettes (that already gets pretty good mileage as it is - for what it is.) Reduce the weight, reduce the power (but keep the power-to-weight ratio), add direct injection and you have a car that will fit into the CAFE picture just fine, thanks.
Relax.
Z//
What bothers me is there are about 20 different issues going on all at the same time and people are saying "relax, it's not as bad as it sounds", on all of them. Don't relax, trust your instincts.