Wilddr805

Wow! Borla builds your LG design!! I have always liked Borla pipes but I also like the ability to change to factory valve to keep the cops at bay here in CA. My dental assistant has a brother who works for the factory in Oxnard. Who should I ask for a group purchase over there on your LG's? Thanks for the Email Lou! I caught some of your C6R VIDEO racing in Long Beach....Very nice video on YouTube!!! I was there and saw the event.

Zip Corvettes

If you are looking for numbers without a cam and tune, then it really does not matter much who's system you go for. I understand the cam, but the tune is different, it is hard to compare apples to apples and asking who makes the most power without tuning the car. If you are going to spend close to 2k for any of the complete systems, spend the extra money having someone that knows what they are doing with a dyno and tune your car. You will not get the most out of any of them if you are running the stock tuning on the car. Everyone here selling headers has an agenda including me, of course I want you to buy mine, Lou wants you to buy his, and anyone selling American Racing or Dynatechs wants you to buy theirs regardless of what they say. What I am saying is too buy what you want any name brand because at the end of the day if you are not tuning your car it is not going to make a difference. Anyone posting dyno numbers of their products are going to steer you to their products, have you seen one vendor show you a dyno that did not produce the results they are wanting you to see, we all have them. My stepped header do not add 30-40 more hp than any other brand, and nobody else's does either. I showed a dyno graph on a ZO6 that we made 517 at the rear wheels, we spent hours on a dyno getting the tune perfect on that car. That does not mean if you bolt these headers on you are going to see that number, you have to invest the time in tuning to get you close. You also have to realize that not every ZO6 or C6 or Corvette is the same, you might have a car that no matter how much work you do it will not reach that. I just finished a ZO6 that I spent two days mapping the entire engine on and could not get that car past 485 at the rear wheels. The ZO6 right before that went 504 on the rear wheels with the exact same mods and about an hour on the dyno. I guess what I am trying to say in the long speech is that go with the brand that you are going to be happy with having there name on your car at the end of the day. It could be LG, Kooks, ARH, Dynatech, or B&B, the car will sound awesome and you will gain some lost power. All of these "header wars" lead to nothing being learned by the customer in the end and vendors making themselves look foolish. We can sell any header that we choose, we chose Kooks for more reasons than pure power, they ship when we order, they fix problems when they happen (which is very little) and the quality is excellent. I think those are the more important questions to be asked and if the other vendors can offer the same then you are not making a mistake by purchasing any of the other brand headers.
Happy Holidays
Justin Abbott
Zip Products

asian-winkie

LOL, very funny

backchannel

I agree. Was hoping to see some comparisons on LS7 like Spinmonster has done [same car, same dyno, tuned ]

Sherminator

Great post Jabbott.
We choose Dynatech because we do other makes and models like Hemi/SRT 8 cars/truck, Mustangs and GM trucks, not just Corvettes. Thus it's much easier having one shipment for headers from one vendor, better pricing, better service should we have product issues and most important they install the same everytime...perfect! I have personally installed LG's, AR's and Dynatech's on C6 Z06's. LG's made power, but fitment wasn't what I like. AR's fit well, but they come with poor gaskets, no new header bolts and all the other hardware in a ziplock bag. Dynatech's come complete with all new stainless gaskets(exactly like the factory ones...same company too), bolts, 02 extensions, adel clamps for the O2 wiring, tie wraps, 4 bolt donut flanges at the cats and virtually leak proof stainless band clamps. Complete as they can come and they fit perfect on every brand vehicle. From an install point, it's a no brainer.
And Lou, those headers were installed about 2 years ago, maybe they've changed since.

LG Motorsports

Hi,

Yes, they have changed plenty since the early version. We now have Borla make the full package and the primaries have been relocated on the right hand side to clear everything nicely.

Give me a call and we can go over the changes.

Thanks
Lou Gigliotti

DOUG @ ECS

I just so happened to do in shop comparison on all three of the asked headers when we first bought our Z. First off I want to say that I think all the headers mentioned are from great shops and you can't go wrong with any of them.

The results I am about to post were 100% unbiased, my only alliance is to my customers, period. We really are not concerned with cost of each header, we are only concerned with performance and that cost's whatever it costs.

We did this back in early 06, possibly late 05, (we had the third Z sold by Kerbeck) we did absolutely no tuning at all because we wanted an unbiased report of a bolt on to a bolt on.

We pulled the car in and had two people working on the swap so the time between pulls were short, we had about 2 hrs between each header swap, and the car was at the same temp each time exactly and we did a base dyno pull first thing.

First set of headers we used were the LG's, there were some dry sump line fitment issues at that time (possibly corrected by now?) so we had to make a bracket for them. We pulled it back up on the dyno after the swap and they increased the power by 8hp, yes I said 8. With a relatively even increase across the graph.

Second set was with the Kooks headers, again two hours for the swap with two people, the car was again at the same temp, and we picked up 18rwhp from our base pull.

Third set was the American Racing headers, swap time again was almost exactly two hours according to dynoing time, and we picked up 28rwhp.

It was odd that they were all on 8's, but that is exactly how it played out, 100% unbiased, on the same dyno, same day, within 6 hours total start to finish. If anything the ARH had the least advantage since it got warmer throughout the day as we dyno'd. All of them had the supplied cats in place as well.

I certainly hope to not start a war over this with anyone, I respect all shops/companies involved, but these were our honest to God results. If the other two companies made better results than ARH, then that's who's headers we would be installing and selling at this time.


I hope this helps those in question, and of course we have the full line of ARH headers in stock if anyone is interested.

Geneus

If you recall, Doug I happened to have been at your shop the day you guys were testing and I can verify these results. It's what convinced me to put ARH's on my new build.

AR Headers

Sherminator, In 2 years our Flat Out Racing LS1 graphite gaskets haven't failed even once. Next to the factory style gaskets you won't find anything better. Our hardware is all U.S. made Grade 8 which I believe you'll find isn't the norm with other brands. Our clamps are OEM style heavy duty S/S and are made by the same outfit that makes them for GM and Ford. We supply 6 insulated hold down clamps with allour C6/ ZO6 kits to secure our rear O2 extension harness. Our harnesses all come with 1200degree jackets to protect the wiring. We place our hardware in a zip lock bag which is then placed inside a separate box where you'll also find gaskets, our install instructions and ARH stickers.
We don't supply header bolts because the factory bolts are more than capable of doing the job. We've yet to hear from a single customer regarding any problem re-using the factory bolts.
Lastly, ARH C6 ZO6 systems were designed on a ZO6. We don't sell C5 headers that just so happen to fit a ZO6. To say there was quite a bit of thought that went into the overall design would be a gross understatement. We punished the Vette Doctors' dyno for over a month just to finalize the overall performance of the system. That came after spending a month developing the system for best fit and easy installation.
This has been the ARH approach on all systems we develop, past present and future.

Nick

Nick

LG Motorsports

No issues with you posting up this info but..

If you only picked up 8 hp with our LG headers then there was something seriously wrong with your test.

In addition, that was over 2 years ago when all we had was C6 headers that were being put on the Z06. and we all know now that the Z06 cylinder head exhaust ports are not in the same place as in the C6 and the early headers did not account for that.

We have also re-engineered the right side of the headers as well as make a Z06 specific header to account for the higher exhaust port and for the dry sump lines.

So yes, you were on the same dyno, same day but wrong model header.

So I would hope that you would be willing to do the test over with our Z06 headers, not our C6 headers if you are really looking out for your customers.

The early Z06 headers that we had from Borla were not designed for the higher port, so the results on other than the vrey early Z06 headers will differ hugely.

Not to mention that our Z06 headers in their current form make great power all over the country.


In Fact, I challenge anyone, anywhere with AR headers, with no affiliation to a seller of their headers, to contact me and I will send you a set of our LG Pro Long Tube Z06 headers for a back to back test. 21st Centruy muscle cars did such a test and found equal power at the top but huge power in favor of the LGs at the lower RPMS.

Just contact me and we can arrange a set of headers to be sent out for a unbiased test.

I already know the answer. The top end power will be very close within 1-3hp for the last 500 rpms but from 2500 to 5000 the LGs will show more power and torque. This is not news

Thanks

Lou Gigliotti

This is what the "Curve" will look like, and yes it was not a Z06 but these ports DO line up below. This test was also done out of state in an unbiased location without our knowledge.

0Carmen@TheVetteDoctors

Hey Nick you still owe me for the dyno time

Zip Corvettes

Nick, You need to get in contact with RichH or is it Rich here on the forum, he has a silver ZO6 with your headers. We have not been able to get them to stop leaking. The best so far are with two sets of gaskets in there and they are still not where they should be. I also have not seen the same results that were listed above, nothing against ECS, they are a bunch of great guys and I can't argue with there test results as I was not there, however I have not seen that as the case here when we installed them. I hope you will get this corrected for him.

KOOKS Headers

Doug how can you say this is unbaised? You have had a relationship with the vette docs for a long time. Hell I got pictures of you and Carmen loading headers in your blazer from 5 years ago. So if your testing the Vette docs signature headers your going to tell me that it is unbaised. You guys have a local race you put on together you even tuned together at carlisle. I can go on and on but unbaised is no affilation to the company in discussion. And not for nothing we have made design changes since the orignal sets. So the info you are giving the forum members is no longer true. Not trying to attack you just trying to give the forum members all the info.

backchannel

geez - a lot of conflicting info. Hard to estimate what results will be on my combo with each header. Anyone want to forcast? Car is 07Z06, 4.1 stroke, torquer cam. Also at 3500' elevation

vipervetteguy

Lou,
I've got a question that I'm sure others now have after reading your post: After what date do we have Z-specific headers and not just C6 headers where the right side exhaust port issue wasn't yet addressed? Personally, I ordered mine in early March of 2006.

LG Motorsports

Hi,

In Mid to late 06 we had the primary tube orientation change completed by Borla and into production runs. This change was made to clear the dry sump lines.

All during the following year, we had to modify the port location on each and every set of headers to match the Z06 port locations.

And at first, regarding the rear sections of 3" pipe, we had to make all of them in house. The different rear pipes were needed to connect the X pipe to the Z06 mufflers. Borla now makes both rear pipes for the Z06 kit now. This took a huge burden off of our hands.

Then just recently Borla included all the hand modifications, that we were making for the past year, into the production line.

So now, we don't have to touch the headers in house. Borla does it all, AND we now have a specific Z06 part number with Borla.

The main difference now is that none of the Z06 specific changes have to be made by LGM anymore since Borla has taken those processes over.

So after Mid 06 all the effective performance of the headers would have been the same but some of the work was still being completed in house all the way up to a few months ago.

Hope that helps.

It is our constant dedication to under promise and over deliver that makes us work so hard for the Corvette Community.

Hope that answers your questions.

Thanks

Lou Gigliotti

THRLSKR

Lou - You have mentioned throughout this "C6 z06 discussion" that the curve you posted would be representative for LG headers over Kooks & ARH, Dynatechs...

This is what the "Curve" will look like, and yes it was not a Z06 but these ports DO line up below. This test was also done out of state in an unbiased location without our knowledge.

What I don't get is why are you postng up curves from a 346 CID motor w/ your G5x3 cam and headers in this forum in order to sell your product for the c6-z. Why not put up a c6-z graph? My guess is a disingenuous sales pitch. You also commented on the ports - Did you ever sell non-D shaped headers to early 06-Z customers full knowing the port was indeed different and the brackets needed adjustments for ideal fit?

Having owned a set of your headers on my 03 Z and understanding the different dynamics of that motor vs. the new Z, I think everyone would agree due to LG's primary length ( 32" - sized right for a 346 as claimed by you) & 1.75-diameter they are hands down the header to beat on a 346 motor for Torque. However, for a suspecting entusiast who wants the best speed parts for his dollar it's unsettling to see and hear this gragh as being representative for a "C6-427-Z" over all other header brands. Please explain to us how the same size exhaust valve does not warrant a bigger diameter header when in context of an air pump this motor moves mountains more air (superior velocity) than a 346.

Sorry to rant everyone, but after years of reading these header war posts and looking at spurious dyno curves it becomes hard to see through the smoke & mirrors when buying the right parts.

Bill





[/QUOTE]

LG Motorsports

No problem Bill,

The factors that contribute to the "Curve" do not change much. It is header primary length, orientation, Collector size, Collector design etc.

We have found on our own cars without back to back to other brands that our curve stays the same as do the other brands relative to RPMs and of course Cam choice.

But with a given cam choice the "curve" difference between brands will stay the same.

I am the first to admit that when we exceed 650rwhp on a Z06 we MAY have to change our primary diameter if the port flow is increased dramatically.

Remember that I still stand by the fact that the exhaust valve and port flow is not much different than a C5 so the need for a larger primary is not called for at the moment.

And to date, with a normally aspirated Z06, it has been the LG 1 3/4" headers that have made the highest hp and torque at just above 630rwhp.

I believe that a short header will move the power curve up but any change in the location of the curve is normally a compromise. The only way to maintain the power in the upper rpms with a long primary header is by the use of flow and scavenge features like the Merge Collectors and the Siamese X pipe. Both of which enhance the power in the upper levels and compliment the LG Design.

Hope that helps. And when we exceed 650 rwhp or hit a road block trying to achieve that, then we will upsize our headers but only then.

Thanks
Lou Gigliotti

Jbrady

I have no personal affiliations but have installed the LG longtubes on a buddies 1999 FRC. The LGs were my recommendation as at the time the merge style collector and 1.75" primaries made more sense on a stock headed G5x3 cammed engine made more sense than other choices. Actually, I tried to talk him into a smaller cam but...

Anyway, he did drive up to LG for a dyno tune and managed 390+ which is not bad for a untouched 90k mile longblock with cam, springs and headers. (no cats and virtually no mufflers, LGs 3" pipes into 2.5" over axle resonator/bullet only "mufflers")

I only mention the above for full disclosure

I would like to add that any late model ECU system has a learning curve. Making a change followed by a dyno is not the end of the story. Subsequent runs will likely see the numbers move as the ECU corrects/learns. In the example above where 3 different headers were tested it would be interesting to see followup test data. Yes, R&R and dyno time is expensive and therefore unlikely to happen but would be nice to see further testing.

Furthermore, dyno testing does NOT reveal actual dynamic driving and the all important "feel". If, as claimed, the LG parts post better mid range numbers... that USUALLY would make for a more responsive stronger "feeling" engine. I have seen tests with near identical peak numbers have a dramaticly different street "feel". Unless yours is strickly track driven you will definitely want feel.

A REAL interesting test would be good old scientific double blind testing. Dyno operators unaware of brand. Driver evaluations with test and driver participants also unaware. Good luck right!

CodeBlack