[Z06] Edmunds.com 08 Viper vs 07 Vette ....
10-10-2007, 04:48 PM
#81
Melting Slicks
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Luck is for losers.
D/C seems to manage the Viper thru thick/thin times ... and keep it on top. People alway seem to underestimate the Viper, and its engineers.
Already word of a 75 HP option for the car. So, up to 675 level. Calculate that wt/hp ratio ... and weap
The ZR-1 is reported to have 650 on tap. But, we don't know the weight ... and if it can plant big power like a Viper can. So ... a 675 Hp Viper may prove to be the quicker of the two.
Unless the ZR-1 come in less than 3300 lbs .... the Viper will have the better wt/power advantage.
D/C seems to manage the Viper thru thick/thin times ... and keep it on top. People alway seem to underestimate the Viper, and its engineers.
Already word of a 75 HP option for the car. So, up to 675 level. Calculate that wt/hp ratio ... and weap
The ZR-1 is reported to have 650 on tap. But, we don't know the weight ... and if it can plant big power like a Viper can. So ... a 675 Hp Viper may prove to be the quicker of the two.
Unless the ZR-1 come in less than 3300 lbs .... the Viper will have the better wt/power advantage.
As for the Zr-1 not being able to plant the power..Its been undering testing for quite some time. It will be lighter weight than the current Z supposedly...worst case it weighs the same. Most think it will weigh in at 3000lbs. at 650Hp thats 4.61lbs/HP...08' Viper=5.75lbs/HP...THats HUGE! The Zr-1 is meant to compete with ultra exotics like the Carrera GT, 599GTB, etc. The rear tires will be 1 inch wider I believe than the current Z and use lightweight forged wheels with ceramic brakes.
Last edited by UTVOL06; 10-10-2007 at 04:50 PM.
10-10-2007, 05:22 PM
#82
Le Mans Master
please..lets stick to facts and not rumored 75hp options...We Z owners can do the same...a 75hp would make the 08' Viper not stock. All it takes is another 45-50Hp with the stock tires for us to exceed the viper in straight line acceleration if u wanna talk like that. Give us the Viper tires and keep our Zs stock and it may be another story.
As for the Zr-1 not being able to plant the power..Its been undering testing for quite some time. It will be lighter weight than the current Z supposedly...worst case it weighs the same. Most think it will weigh in at 3000lbs. at 650Hp thats 4.61lbs/HP...08' Viper=5.75lbs/HP...THats HUGE! The Zr-1 is meant to compete with ultra exotics like the Carrera GT, 599GTB, etc. The rear tires will be 1 inch wider I believe than the current Z and use lightweight forged wheels with ceramic brakes.
As for the Zr-1 not being able to plant the power..Its been undering testing for quite some time. It will be lighter weight than the current Z supposedly...worst case it weighs the same. Most think it will weigh in at 3000lbs. at 650Hp thats 4.61lbs/HP...08' Viper=5.75lbs/HP...THats HUGE! The Zr-1 is meant to compete with ultra exotics like the Carrera GT, 599GTB, etc. The rear tires will be 1 inch wider I believe than the current Z and use lightweight forged wheels with ceramic brakes.
10-10-2007, 06:04 PM
#83
Melting Slicks
Jim Press had zero qualms about pulling the Supra, Celica and MR2/MR Spyder when he felt their returns on investment were substandard. Those cars sold in bigger numbers and, especially in the case of the Supra, had sizable fan bases too. But when they were put before Press' unblinking and financially focused eye guess what? Keep thinking that the private equity shop now in control and looking to present a profitable company to sell to the market in five or ten years is going to suffer unprofitable programs. Do you know that Chrysler currently has three idle plants for which they are paying workers to not work because they can't sell the vehicles they produce? These are vehicles which generate more profit than the Viper. Do you think the finance guys now running Chrysler haven't noticed?
Already word of a 75 HP option for the car. So, up to 675 level. Calculate that wt/hp ratio ... and weap
The ZR-1 is reported to have 650 on tap. But, we don't know the weight ... and if it can plant big power like a Viper can. So ... a 675 Hp Viper may prove to be the quicker of the two.
Unless the ZR-1 come in less than 3300 lbs .... the Viper will have the better wt/power advantage.
The ZR-1 is reported to have 650 on tap. But, we don't know the weight ... and if it can plant big power like a Viper can. So ... a 675 Hp Viper may prove to be the quicker of the two.
Unless the ZR-1 come in less than 3300 lbs .... the Viper will have the better wt/power advantage.
We will see but in my line of work all I do is monitor the auto industry. What I see does not bode well for the Viper at all.
10-10-2007, 06:04 PM
#84
Safety Car
please..lets stick to facts and not rumored 75hp options...We Z owners can do the same...a 75hp would make the 08' Viper not stock. All it takes is another 45-50Hp with the stock tires for us to exceed the viper in straight line acceleration if u wanna talk like that. Give us the Viper tires and keep our Zs stock and it may be another story.
.
.
I was making the point that D/C has an extra option upcoming to deal with the rumored ZR-1. Again, this option is not needed to handle the Z .... but, is probably directed to those who wish to take down the ZR-1 Chevy with their stock '08 Vipers.
10-10-2007, 06:16 PM
#85
Safety Car
I do agree that at some point we will hit the HP apex. The auto industry will have their limit ... when the legal eagles say STOP THIS MADNESS.
IMO .... we are very close to that point now. Having the Big 3 going over 700 is unthinkable. So .... anyone who ever wanted to buy the best in HP/TQ available in US production cars .... should get in line quick. When the ax falls at the Big C ..... it will fall elsewhere too. It will be a sad day for all of us auto fans.
10-10-2007, 08:45 PM
#86
Melting Slicks
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Trouble is there is no more D, just the C. And that is now under the express control of an admitted non-car guy. The last guy who championed the Viper's cause at the former DCX is gone. Worse still, the new product head honcho is the former product head for Toyota. What do you think a guy who spent over 30 years overseeing product at the pablum profit machine that is Toyota is going to say/do when he sees the balance sheet for the Viper's operations for the last five years? You keep believing that.
Jim Press had zero qualms about pulling the Supra, Celica and MR2/MR Spyder when he felt their returns on investment were substandard. Those cars sold in bigger numbers and, especially in the case of the Supra, had sizable fan bases too. But when they were put before Press' unblinking and financially focused eye guess what? Keep thinking that the private equity shop now in control and looking to present a profitable company to sell to the market in five or ten years is going to suffer unprofitable programs. Do you know that Chrysler currently has three idle plants for which they are paying workers to not work because they can't sell the vehicles they produce? These are vehicles which generate more profit than the Viper. Do you think the finance guys now running Chrysler haven't noticed?
If the ZR-1 debuts with 650 hp and the weight is the same as the current Z06 then the Viper as weighed by Edmunds will need 692 hp just to be even with it. To then edge it, as the current Viper does, will require a similar 10% power increase over this number. That would be 762 hp. I'm not sure they have a gas-guzzler tax that would cover that for the Dodge. I am also particularly interested to see how the tightly budgeted Dodge program would get around the over $10mm it would take to get this vehicle emissions certified when the number of units for them to amortize over is now so low. This is all the more relevant when you consider how far along the program is.
We will see but in my line of work all I do is monitor the auto industry. What I see does not bode well for the Viper at all.
Jim Press had zero qualms about pulling the Supra, Celica and MR2/MR Spyder when he felt their returns on investment were substandard. Those cars sold in bigger numbers and, especially in the case of the Supra, had sizable fan bases too. But when they were put before Press' unblinking and financially focused eye guess what? Keep thinking that the private equity shop now in control and looking to present a profitable company to sell to the market in five or ten years is going to suffer unprofitable programs. Do you know that Chrysler currently has three idle plants for which they are paying workers to not work because they can't sell the vehicles they produce? These are vehicles which generate more profit than the Viper. Do you think the finance guys now running Chrysler haven't noticed?
If the ZR-1 debuts with 650 hp and the weight is the same as the current Z06 then the Viper as weighed by Edmunds will need 692 hp just to be even with it. To then edge it, as the current Viper does, will require a similar 10% power increase over this number. That would be 762 hp. I'm not sure they have a gas-guzzler tax that would cover that for the Dodge. I am also particularly interested to see how the tightly budgeted Dodge program would get around the over $10mm it would take to get this vehicle emissions certified when the number of units for them to amortize over is now so low. This is all the more relevant when you consider how far along the program is.
We will see but in my line of work all I do is monitor the auto industry. What I see does not bode well for the Viper at all.
The new Viper would have to atleast have 750+Hp to out edge a Zr-1 weighing the same as a Z06, but the ZR-1 is rumored to weigh less around 3000lbs..if so then it will need more like 800Hp.Dodge just wants to play marketing games with Numbers and ignorant enough people to buy into it.
Until there are more tests between the 08' Viper and a real 08' Z06 with similar tires I'm not so sure the Viper will outperform it on a roadcourse or even 1/4 mile if the Z had the Viper's tires.
10-11-2007, 01:15 AM
#87
Ok, consider this, the 08 Viper is better than the Z albeit slightly in every performance category. As far as Im concerned, that's goal acheived for DC. By the time they had even started planning the 08' Viper, there were already rumors of the BlueDevil(ZR-1), so they knew they would have bigger fish to attempt to fry, so in the mean time, they basically just updated the SRT-10 to get the crown back, it's still the same car, just an updated version!!!!!
They had to because the Z06 was stabbing the Viper to death (sales). So now the ***** back in Chevy's court to make a move, and then DC can respond, and so on and so forth. DC did not need to KILL the Z06, just needed to win, and they did, it's always easier to beat someone when they have made the last move and you can make a bigger one.
So this is just an evolution of competition, and we reap the rewards. Now go out and enjoy your cars becasue I'd bet money the people arguing the hardest in here hardly ever see a track that's not on a TV.
But in all seriousness, THIS IS A DRIVERS RACE!!!!! But the driver of the viper can get away with being a little worse in this case.
They had to because the Z06 was stabbing the Viper to death (sales). So now the ***** back in Chevy's court to make a move, and then DC can respond, and so on and so forth. DC did not need to KILL the Z06, just needed to win, and they did, it's always easier to beat someone when they have made the last move and you can make a bigger one.
So this is just an evolution of competition, and we reap the rewards. Now go out and enjoy your cars becasue I'd bet money the people arguing the hardest in here hardly ever see a track that's not on a TV.
But in all seriousness, THIS IS A DRIVERS RACE!!!!! But the driver of the viper can get away with being a little worse in this case.
And Lets see how many laps the Blue Devil can do around Willow Springs before over heating..
Besides, Viper having back to back wins ( 98 + 99)in the 24 Hour Lemans was a huge accomplishment.
Chuck
Last edited by Viper_Vette; 10-11-2007 at 01:25 AM.
10-11-2007, 01:25 AM
#88
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There are things that I have been reading here lately that Zs motors are not holding together all that well. There seems to be some problems with the valve train. Not my words, but they are there for all to see and read, I want to see how well this 650HP B/D is going to do with reliability.
10-11-2007, 01:38 AM
#89
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They had to supercharge the Blue Devil in order to be ahead of the Viper. Yes the V8 is tapped out..
And Lets see how many laps the Blue Devil can do around Willow Springs before over heating..
Besides, Viper having back to back wins ( 98 + 99)in the 24 Hour Lemans was a huge accomplishment.
Chuck
And Lets see how many laps the Blue Devil can do around Willow Springs before over heating..
Besides, Viper having back to back wins ( 98 + 99)in the 24 Hour Lemans was a huge accomplishment.
Chuck
with the SC comment. It will indeed be interesting to see how they manage to keep the ZR-1/BD cool if in fact the go SC. But your '98 & '99 Lemans comment though, that's almost 10 years ago...
10-11-2007, 02:38 AM
#90
Chuck
10-11-2007, 03:38 AM
#91
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They had to supercharge the Blue Devil in order to be ahead of the Viper. Yes the V8 is tapped out..
And Lets see how many laps the Blue Devil can do around Willow Springs before over heating..
Besides, Viper having back to back wins ( 98 + 99)in the 24 Hour Lemans was a huge accomplishment.
Chuck
And Lets see how many laps the Blue Devil can do around Willow Springs before over heating..
Besides, Viper having back to back wins ( 98 + 99)in the 24 Hour Lemans was a huge accomplishment.
Chuck
Second, simple headers, tune and intake on the Vette makes it a dead heat or better with the new stock Viper. If a viper does the same mods it will likely have the upper hand in a straight line. However, both cars are close to the limit of adhesion and suspension with 600 hp at the road racing tracks so more power does not necessarily mean faster.
Third, Viper did not fix the disaster that is the styling of the inside and outside of the car. No other way to put it. Should have been far more like GTSR concept.
Fourth, Viper is an ergonomic disaster. No, it does not need mini van utility, but it is iffy even for a weekend getaway, which is surely something you want to do with this car. How about a grocery run on the weekend or 2 sets of golf clubs?
Finally, the Viper w/stripes as I would order it is at least $15k more than a loaded C6Z. $15k will cover a lot of serious suspension, performance, wheels, seats and bling!!
So, while I think it is great that dodge has stepped up a bit, I am not in a rush to sell my headers, tune and intake C6Z!
10-11-2007, 08:07 AM
#92
Melting Slicks
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First, when Vipers were winning at LeMans it was an 8.1ll or 8.3L vs. the 6.4L Vette. When the Vette was allowed to use the 7L motor, it was over for the Vipers and the factory pulled out.
Second, simple headers, tune and intake on the Vette makes it a dead heat or better with the new stock Viper. If a viper does the same mods it will likely have the upper hand in a straight line. However, both cars are close to the limit of adhesion and suspension with 600 hp at the road racing tracks so more power does not necessarily mean faster.
Third, Viper did not fix the disaster that is the styling of the inside and outside of the car. No other way to put it. Should have been far more like GTSR concept.
Fourth, Viper is an ergonomic disaster. No, it does not need mini van utility, but it is iffy even for a weekend getaway, which is surely something you want to do with this car. How about a grocery run on the weekend or 2 sets of golf clubs?
Finally, the Viper w/stripes as I would order it is at least $15k more than a loaded C6Z. $15k will cover a lot of serious suspension, performance, wheels, seats and bling!!
So, while I think it is great that dodge has stepped up a bit, I am not in a rush to sell my headers, tune and intake C6Z!
Second, simple headers, tune and intake on the Vette makes it a dead heat or better with the new stock Viper. If a viper does the same mods it will likely have the upper hand in a straight line. However, both cars are close to the limit of adhesion and suspension with 600 hp at the road racing tracks so more power does not necessarily mean faster.
Third, Viper did not fix the disaster that is the styling of the inside and outside of the car. No other way to put it. Should have been far more like GTSR concept.
Fourth, Viper is an ergonomic disaster. No, it does not need mini van utility, but it is iffy even for a weekend getaway, which is surely something you want to do with this car. How about a grocery run on the weekend or 2 sets of golf clubs?
Finally, the Viper w/stripes as I would order it is at least $15k more than a loaded C6Z. $15k will cover a lot of serious suspension, performance, wheels, seats and bling!!
So, while I think it is great that dodge has stepped up a bit, I am not in a rush to sell my headers, tune and intake C6Z!
and to the V8 being tapped out..thats BS. an LS7 can easily generate 650Hp naturally aspirated with a different cam, heads, intake, tune, etc.
10-11-2007, 09:30 AM
#93
Safety Car
I'll be interested in this as well, there havent been any good S/C tracks cars, well, ever, even the Ford GT sucks with overheating. And as far as I'm concerned, if they try to make anything any skimpier to save weight, I'd have to wait to see how it held together.
10-11-2007, 10:45 AM
#94
Safety Car
A 650-750 HP car that weighs in at less than 3300 lbs ... is gonna find it practically impossible to plant full power on launch & quick upshifts ... w/o AWD.
And we're told the ZR-1 isn't AWD.
Just another reason why I think the Viper, with the Hp upgrade option, will be able to keep the Snake @ top of the foodchain.
10-11-2007, 10:52 AM
#95
Melting Slicks
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Good points !!
A 650-750 HP car that weighs in at less than 3300 lbs ... is gonna find it practically impossible to plant full power on launch & quick upshifts ... w/o AWD.
And we're told the ZR-1 isn't AWD.
Just another reason why I think the Viper, with the Hp upgrade option, will be able to keep the Snake @ top of the foodchain.
A 650-750 HP car that weighs in at less than 3300 lbs ... is gonna find it practically impossible to plant full power on launch & quick upshifts ... w/o AWD.
And we're told the ZR-1 isn't AWD.
Just another reason why I think the Viper, with the Hp upgrade option, will be able to keep the Snake @ top of the foodchain.
10-11-2007, 11:07 AM
#96
Safety Car
Kit cars come with high Hp and low weights .... but, its much harder for the automakers to bring them to market. Things like warranty and crash testing tend to keep weight high. Also, AWD option would add 75-100 lbs to a vehicle.
If GM can produce the ZR-1 @ less than 3000 lbs .... it will cost 175K.
If GM can produce the ZR-1 @ less than 3000 lbs .... it will cost 175K.
10-11-2007, 01:13 PM
#97
Drifting
10-11-2007, 08:27 PM
#98
Second, simple headers, tune and intake on the Vette makes it a dead heat or better with the new stock Viper. If a viper does the same mods it will likely have the upper hand in a straight line. However, both cars are close to the limit of adhesion and suspension with 600 hp at the road racing tracks so more power does not necessarily mean faster.
!
!
Chuck
10-11-2007, 10:13 PM
#99
Melting Slicks
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If it were tapped out then why does it respond so well to non-forced induction mods..heads, cam, headers, etc.? There would be no gains....your assesment is moot.
10-11-2007, 10:44 PM
#100