GCBC

Anyone running a replacement lipo battery? I swap out all my lead acid motorcycle batteries for 1lb or less lipos that have MORE CCA and can sit forever without being on a tender. I also would appreciate the weight loss here and the never on a tender factor.

Narddog

I would never trust a lipo battery in my car unattended, anywhere unless it was engineered to be there. I've spent enough time in the rc world to understand how dangerous lipo batteries can be.

Uncle Meat

Concur. I've had a lipo burst into flame on me. Thank god it was outside when it happened and not in the house! Thing went up like a road flare!

U.M.

FortMorganAl

A battery that can run computers forever and never need charging? What a marvelous invention. You do know that the reason you need a tender for "normal" batteries in modern cars is they aren't' '53 Buicks, don't you? Unlike the '53 Buick where you closed a mechanical switch to power something and when all the switches were open there was no power at all coming from the battery, modern cars all have computers that are running all the time. That's why modern car batteries go dead from weeks to a month or so sitting idle.

I would also NEVER put a LiPo or ANY lithium based battery in a car or a motorcycle for that matter. The problem is they have an exothermic reaction if they get hot. They are fine until they start getting hot and then the hotter they get the more they react which makes them hotter until they burst into flames. In case you didn't know, a car's engine compartment gets hot. Even a Z06 with the battery in the back gets much hotter than acceptable because of the exhaust under it.

Narddog

Garry in AZ

I tried a Shorai LiPo battery in a motorcycle a couple of years ago. It worked fine for about 3 months, and then one day during a long trip, nothing. 0 volts. Something went open circuit inside and left me stranded 700 miles from home on a Sunday. Couldn't even boost start it. I did get my money back, but that was my first and last LiPo battery for a vehicle.

mikeCsix

AGM's are probably your best bet alternative to liquid lead/acid. At least the AGM is sealed. If your car is electrically "clean", regardless of the battery installed you won't want to leave it any longer than a month without a battery tender. It is just a fact of modern life. I have a new '17 yukon and left it two months without a battery tender and found the battery completely drained, like it was sitting at 1.5vdc. The only charger that would bring it back would have been an old school basic battery charger which the movers destroyed. I tried one of the newer versions and its charging algorithm couldn't cope with it. I replaced it with an AGM. The Corvette battery is still going strong at 7 years with 2.5 years in Phoenix. When it needs replacing I'll go with an AGM. Delco has one that needs slight modifications to its base to use the battery hold-down clamps, there is a great thread on it on the forum, complete with pictures and battery sizes.

0Antigravity

Hi Everyone, so I would be happy to help answer anyone's questions they have on lithium battery use in an automotive application. I'm not sure how I feel about the build quality in the video posted above earlier...lol but our batteries are quite a bit removed from an application such as that. As some have mentioned and taken note of, unprotected lithium batteries can be damaged when exposed to improper treatment, operated outside of there normal parameters and not maintained correctly, Cell style, chemical composition and build quality can also play a major part in how they react as well.

In regards to our automotive battery however in addition to build and cell quality we have a full battery management system in place to provide protections for the battery in regards to over charge, over discharge, and thermal conditions to alleviate ever putting the battery in a condition where it can be damaged and not allowing it to die. It also has built in jump starting via a remote keyfob so you can not be left stranded. Please feel free to check it out below.

FortMorganAl

Saves up to 50 pounds? Since the C6 battery only weighs about 30 pounds, is yours filled with hydrogen or helium? Is that why you call your company Antigravity? Never mind.

BTW, You are correct that a LiPo battery designed for automotive use would have to have some sophisticated electronics installed to keep it from exploding when charged with a system designed to charge a lead acid battery since the voltages are different. And it would also have to disconnect fairly rapidly given the unknown discharge capability if someone added a large after-market audio system. But if it can save 50 pounds by replacing a 30 pound battery, that's a 1.5% weight improvement making the car almost 1 mph faster in the 1/4 mile. That might be worth the $700-$800 it would cost.

0Antigravity

Well, at the risk of sounding like as complete ASSHAT.... I've got to inform a few of you that you are posting some i mis-information that is quite off the mark, But that is where I can bring you up to speed a bit. So don't think of me as a condescending jerk... maybe think of me a a Teacher....

FortMorgan your post is cute... but a C6 Corvette is not the only Performance Car in this big ole' World, our video was for all cars, not just the C6. For example some Porsches, BMWs and Mercedes use a Lead Acid battery that is called the H8 or Group 49 Battery which is a Large Heavy Battery and in fact our Battery WOULD save 50lbs off. Also later model Vettes use the H6/Group 48 Battery that weighs 46lbs... so you save over 30lbs with those batteries. And as you know on this forum you will always see people taking out Carpet and anything possible to lose weight in their Cars because they want LIGHTWEIGHT. So shaving 30lbs off a Vette in one 15 minute change is MASSIVE to those guys. So while this not for everyone, its absolutely a important factor for many looking for weight savings. Then you add the built-in Jump Starting, 8 year plus lifespan and it quite worth it for those who might like this type of thing. Just type in Battery, and you will see hundred and hundreds of battery posts. This is the next generation and you can't damage it like you can a Lead/Acid battery since you can't OVER-DISCHARGE it.

So as I said there was some mis-information...

First off, YOU CANNOT USE LIPO, which is LITHIUM POLYMER as an Automobile Starter Battery. Some of you are confusing those LIPO Batteries in Remote Control Toys, Phones or Hoover Boards with what is used in the Automotive Starter Battery. We use Lithium-Iron Phosphate Lifepo4 in our Batteries, which is a safe and stable form of LITHIUM-ION. We have a full Battery Management system that protects the battery from Over-Charge, Over-Discharge, and has Thermal Protections. It also has Short Circuit Protections. So its a pretty fool proof battery that cannot be damaged. Also Lithium Cells are rated at TWICE the Life Cycles of Lead/Acid... so you talking double the life span, but when you add in the Battery Management System that does not allow for the battery to become OVER-DISCHARGED, and the fact that the battery has built in WIRELESS Jump Starting you are talking another level of Stater Battery.

While I see the posted video above of the flaming battery, and have seen other Hooverboard Battery fires, that is not remotely what we are doing, nor does it represent Lithium Auto Batteries at all. But it does show the deep level of mis-information from the average Consumer about Lithium. So its about education on this type of product. We understand it new, and with the media blasting about Fires from LITHIUM-ION we understand that. But for those who don't know "Lithium-Ion" just means ANY rechargeable Lithium battery Chemistry. But under that umbrella term "LITHIUM-ION" are SEVERAL different types of Lithium-Ion Chemical make-ups. The operate at different voltages, some are very safe, some are much less safe, but as stated the variant used as Starter Batteries are Lifepo4 and are a safe direct replacement for lead acid while being up to 70% lighter. A few of the Manufacturers are using them in their performance Cars now such as Porsche, Mercedes, BMW....

Yes they absolutely have a higher entry level cost. They are more expensive to produce, they are much more technologically advance, but also have the benefit of much longer life, massive weight reduction. A Battery Management system that prevents the battery from being damaged by an accidental over-discharge. And you can also never mess around with Jump Starting again since our Batteries have built-in Wireless Jump Starting. So while it may seem expensive... those are absolutely valuable features that can save you butt, save you time and save you money.

So if anyone has a questions about Lithium please feel free to ask.

FortMorganAl

Thank you for your detailed description. More people will believe an "expert" than just some random poster on the internet and you have made most of my points very well.

Yes, saving a few pounds can be very important in a race car. Yes, removing the carpet and the passenger seat or any 30 pound object can make a difference in even a 3,300 pound car when fractions of a second count. It can make a HUGE difference in a 330 pound motorcycle. But to the average C6 owner, hundredths of a second can be made up much easier with simple improvement in driving skill.

You have also made my point that you need a charging/discharge limiter on ANY lithium battery and your batteries have that. Just as the OP saying that a lithium battery will never discharge isn’t true, Your statement that this means "you can't damage it" is a little misleading because ANY charging/discharging damages ANY battery. This is why batteries don't last forever. You also claim an 8 year lifespan which isn't that much different from the 7 year lifespan many of us who know how to protect a lead acid battery get by limiting the charge/discharge stress. Yes, that requires ALWAYS using a tender when the car is not running but that isn't a difficult task especially for the garage queens.

Yes, the media hype about lithium battery fires is greatly exaggerated. Most are safe but the fact remains that lithium burns very well given the right conditions. That's why you have all the electronic protections built into your battery. But ALL lithium batteries will create a very hot fire under the right conditions. Even Teslas have been known to burn brightly. There was such an event just a couple of weeks ago in Moscow. And, yes, before you say it, Tesla uses a different chemistry than yours but it is the lithium that is the problem. And all the charge/discharge protection electronics won't help if the battery case is punctured by metallic objects or the charge/discharge electronic system fails. And, yes, lead acid batteries have been known to explode also. But they just explode quickly splashing acid around but no fire while once lithium starts burning it all wants to burn with an intense fire.

You have also made a very valid point that all battery chemistries produce different voltages. That is something that needs to be considered when changing one chemistry for another. It appears that your battery has a maximum charging voltage of 3.65 volts per cell or 14.6 volts. That is very close to lead acid but I don't think it is close enough for the C6 which has the charging voltage controlled by the BCM computer. I have seen the C6 charging voltage go over 15 volts. How does your battery handle that? Do you recommend tuning the C6 software or does your battery just cut off charging when the voltage gets too high? And if it just abruptly cuts off, how does the BCM computer handle the battery being abruptly disconnected and supposedly reconnected later?

Finally you acknowledge that $800 for a battery is rather expensive compared to lead acid. Yes, if you are a professional driver who needs to save hundredths of a second and wouldn’t be significantly economically impacted if your car burns, then $800 might be worth it. Hey, it might be worth $800 just in bragging rights to some people. Personally I will stick with the 160 year old technology for 1/5 the cost and work on cutting the apex a little tighter.

But, again, thank you for your detailed explanations of the issues. :

0Antigravity

I understand you perspective, Lithium is not for everybody, you are thinking weight savings is for Race Cars only, and you have your fears about it. your thought process is legitimate for you, so I am not here to argue for a change in your view point. I will respect any of your views because what a person believes what they believe.. I can only present facts and then let the cards fall where they might for a Customer. We've sold over a million MICRO-START Jump Starters since 2013, and about 600k Lithium Starter Batteries to Vehicle owners so we are not really presenting a brand new dangerous technology. Our Car Batteries are newer a offer even more sophisticated technology and have the latest in protections.

So I read some of your statement, and here my reply...

1- Driving skills do not trump or take away from weight savings.... They only ADD to it. So if you take driving classes and have a lower weight car the improvements are that much more significant. So we don't need to seperate those. Additionally weight is much more important than maybe you realize. For example lets say a 10 pound brick going 10 MPH takes 20lbs of force to stop ( I'm making this number up to illustrate my point, you need certain calculations to acutally determine the actual force, but my argument is accurate) .... But do you think a 10 pound object going 20 MPH now takes just double that force to stop, 40 lbs of force? No it does not work like that, the force required to stop or slow down a mass is exponential as speed increases as the speed increase. So you would not just double the force to stop a 10 pound brick going 20 MPH... it would take about 80 lbs to slow it down because it exponential as speed increases. Now when you take that speed up to 60MPH that 10lb brick would take around 600lbs to stop. So this plays dramatically into braking distances, and lateral forces going around a corner. So just wanted to point that out since people don't only Race and benefit... though Tracking or Racing allows more of the benefit to show.

2- You claim of any charging or discharge a lithium battery damages it, that is a bit misleading. It does not "damage" it, but yes it wears it out....true of ANY product. But by saying its damaging it implies it is getting hurt or becoming more likely to fail in a catastrophic way. I don't think anyone was thinking that I was saying that a Lithium Battery lasts forever when I in fact said it lasts 8-10 years. It appears you are putting your arguments in a very hard-line black or white scenario. Everything wears out, but our lithium battery is rated at over 2 times the actual Discharge and Recharge Cycles of Lead/Acid. I am not making this up. Its just a fact, Lifepo4 Lithium is rated from 2000 to 3000 cycles, where as Lead/Acid is rate at about 750 to 1000 cycles. This is due to the chemical makes up of these products. Steel wears less than aluminum... because they are different compositions. Same with LIthium Iron Phosphate vs Lead/Acid. You say you get 7 years out of a Lead/Acid battery. With today's lead/acid batteries and the thinner plates they use now that is really not something I agree with. Optimas used to get 10 years... now it roughly 2-3 years. They have built in obsolescence now. I rarely hear of long life lead batteries... the manufacturers have changed the build quality. Like most things they are not building for long term use, they are building for continual sales. This can be argued but it actually accurate, and judging by the number of battery threads its confirmed.

3- While you bring up a Tesla and a fire in Russia... it is not accurate to compare with our Batteries being it is not a remotely similar application in the Car. I'm talking about a "Starter Battery" vs a Electric Car Battery that powers EVERYTHING in the Tesla. The Tesla batteries are put under massively higher usage compared a Starter Battery. The Tesla battery is actually working and doing deep discharges as their Primary function every day, any time the car is moving, or even stationary keeping the electronics and batteries cool.. A Starter Battery such as we are selling is basically asked to work about 10 to 20 times a day starting a car... which take a few seconds and is very easy for the Battery to do. Once it starts the car then it is basically sitting there inert and assisting a little with stabilizing voltage, or supplying some support voltage when the A/C or heated seats turn on. That use is vastly different from an Electric Car that is deeply discharging those batteries often, Yet Tesla has an 8-10 year warranty on the battery pack.... so they are not sweating it not lasting. Theoretically I could say longer lifespans on our battery.. but I don't want to oversell the product.

4- While you bring up the Lithium battery has a Limiter... the fact is that a Lead/Acid Battery ALSO needs a limiter. but CAN"t have one due to the acid inside the battery. Its actually called a BMS (Battery Management System) but the lead/acid battery does NOT have this. That is why Lead/Acid batteries often die A LOT. It is because the Customer accidentally left his lights on, or stereo and over-discharged the Lead/Acid Battery... that means the cells get damaged, and its lifespan and cranking performance will be shortened significantly with each deep over discharge. So you are missing the fact that a Lead/Acid Battery is damaged when it gets over-discharged, or over-charged also... they just do not have the capability to have this BMS feature. But with Lithium you CAN incorporate the protection into the battery and therefore eliminate these accidental damages to the battery. So that a massive win for Lithium and allows for a much longer life without the potential for accidental over discharges that a Lead/Acid battery has. I think you are thinking a Lead Battery does not need to have this, but it DOES need it.. they just can't have it.

5- Yes, the Lithium Battery can go above 15v it just shunts the extra energy. But to clarify your car should NOT be going over 15v and staying there... this can damage a Lead/Acid battery as well. In any standard 12v Vehicle system it will have variables and spikes at times, but it is standardized to work within certain voltages...with a max being 14.8 in general... that is in ALL 12v VEHICLES. They have standardized this since way back. The AGM batteries ( a variant of Lead BAtteries) do not even like to see charging voltage above 13.8v, and only a FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) battery should see higher voltage rates up to 14.8v. But our battery has protection that won't allow high voltage spikes to harm it. So it works fine in any vehicles system that is correctly operating. It will not cure bad alternator or excessively spiking voltage , but neither would a Lead/Acid battery. But it will shunt that energy away resulting in the battery not being damage whereas the Lead/Acid would not.

6- Last yes I acknowledge that an $800 dolllar battery is expensive, but that does not mean it does not carry the value of that Cost. . It offers twice the life span of a Lead Battery and if you left the lights on in your car and deeply over-discharged your battery, then your Lead battery isn't coming back and won't last much longer, our Lithium battery protects from these common accidents. Our battery wouldn't be damaged at all... it just put itself to sleep to protect itself. Also you wouldn't have to charge it or get a jump starter or ask for assistance if you come back to a dead battery... just press the keyfob and go. Our batter would just start right up again when you press the Wireless Keyfob. Say your at a ball game or out to dinner and you left your lights on or a dome light or something stayed on. You have to have a jump starter, call AAA, ask someone for help, open the hood to your trunk get dirty and mess around. But with our battery you don't have to open the hood, you don't have to touch the battery, call AAA, or borrow jump starter clamps or mess around...you simply press they keyfob start it up and go. For some people those features are worth the price of admission alone. That time and hassle saved are exceptionally valuable. So yes it costs more to make a lIthium battery, the price is higher, but the benefits are way beyond what Lead/Acid does. Also lead acid can spill and damage paint bodywork and more. I'm not saying its the best thing for everyone, I'm saying it offers these benefits to those who desire them.

GCBC

So Antigravity, I have a half dozen of yours in my motorcycles. What model numbers will work for my application here? Happy to post vids and review of it for a discount.

CSixDude

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiiFePo not LiPo) will not burn or explode and are becoming more and more commonly used in motorcycles and other vehicles. I have one in a motorcycle that is over 10 years old now and still works great, and I have another one in my lawn tractor that is just as old. I never put them on a charger and they always fire right off.

The only downside is that they can be slow to crank in temps below about 38 degrees, but once they warm up a bit they are fine.

FortMorganAl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antigravity

...So I read some of your statement, and here my reply.....

You really should read all of what someone says before trying to point out that they are wrong. I read everything you write.

1. You probably don't know but you are speaking to an engineer with over 50 years experience in not only batteries but also many other areas of electrical and mechanical engineering. But my main field (if I have one) would be computer software and hardware as they apply to control systems. So, to do the math for you, the kinetic energy of an object is E=1/2 M V^2. If you change the velocity as you did, the energy is squared. But if you change the mass it is proportional. If you lighten a 500 pound motorcycle by 5 pounds you make a 1% change in the energy at a given speed. If you lighten a 3,300 pound car by 5 pounds you make a 0.15% change. You are only making 1/8th of the change in energy because the mass you are not changing is 8 time greater. Cut 1 foot off the radius of a 100 foot radius turn and you’ve shortened the corner of the track by 1% no matter what the mass of the vehicle. But yes, 1.125% is greater than 1%. But is it worth $800 or would another inch and a half be a better investment?

2. OK. Batteries wear out instead of being “damaged”. Strange definition but OK. As far as a seven year life for lead acid. I have worked with industrial lead acid that are over 20 years old and still like new. That is because of exactly what you pointed out, the cycling. The more you cycle ANY battery the faster it will “wear out”. Do a search and you will find many C6 owners who report getting 5 or more years life out of their lead acid batteries and some longer than 7 years. You will also find many who agree that a 2-3 year life is all you can expect. The difference is how people take care of their battery. BTW, I have little respect for Optimas. They are a slightly better design but WAY overpriced for the minimal advantage they offer. And the people buying the deep cycle Optimas are really wasting money.

3. My point of the Tesla fires wasn’t that they were the same type of battery. I stated they were different chemistry. The point it that lithium burns and lead doesn’t. And once you start puncturing batteries, shorting cells, or passing too much current in or out, all the electronic protection in the world isn’t going to help hold the short circuit current down which is that match that is going to start lithium burning.

4. “..the fact is that a Lead/Acid Battery ALSO needs a limiter. but CAN"t have one due to the acid inside…” I’m sorry, What? The “limiter” on overcharging a lead acid battery is the hydrolysis of the water in the acid. The water breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen and drifts away leaving a dead battery. The solution is to not overcharge the battery by simply controlling the voltage. The voltage will usually be controlled by the battery itself until it becomes fully charged. Then you need to stop increasing the voltage. Any heat created during the charging process will either be absorbed by the mass of the lead or the evaporation of water. Any lithium battery, however, is very susceptible to overcharging because the hotter it gets the more current it draws which increases the temperature. And once the lithium ignites it is all over. On the discharge side, if you put a dead short across a lead acid battery the temperature will rise as the current flows. The result can be a steam explosion if the rise is fast enough. At a slower rate you get boiling, cracked cases, and other nasty consequences but never a fire that a lithium is prone to do. That’s why you really have to have charge and discharge limiting with any lithium battery but nothing special with lead not that you couldn't install the same electronics..

5. When the lithium battery “shunts the extra energy” (Should be voltage, not energy) what does it do with it? Wouldn’t that confuse the BCM computer that is trying to control the voltage? If you mean that your battery limiter, like most lithium battery limiters, just disconnects the battery, that is going to produce a surge in voltage that will certainly confuse the BCM which is expecting a lead acid battery accepting a higher voltage for a while to recharge from a significant discharge event. No, 15 volts is not a normal charging voltage in a C6 but it is normal right after starting on an almost fully charged battery that needs a boost from the sudden discharge. As far as some standards committee deciding 14.8 being acceptable. Nonsense. The voltage of a battery is determined by the chemistry. Lead/Lead sulfate likes 2.45 volts per cell for quick charging with minimal “wear” which is 14.7and 14.1 in a hot engine compartment. But engineers can choose any charging voltage and current they like. There is no charging police. And GM engineers have selected a charging protocol for the C6 that charges faster than “optimal” when cold.. It seems they expected more short trips. I own another GM vehicle and the charging protocol is very different. There they chose extended battery life with much lower maximum voltage. There is no hard and fast rule of what your battery will be subjected to. Unlike lead acid cells, however, lithium iron phosphate cells have a maximum charging voltage of 3.65 volts per cell or 14.6 volts. Go too high on lead acid and all you do is boil or break down the water. Go too high on a LiFePo and it breaks down and you are risking a fire. That’s why you have electronics to take a charging system designed for lead acid chemistry and try to make it safe for lithium iron. And the electronics needed is just one more reason 6. the price is so high.

Sorry for the long polemic but that is another of my specialties that some find offensive even though I am just trying to educate.

FortMorganAl

A National Institute of Health study disagrees. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5505962/

0Antigravity

Well Fort, I applaud your absolute unwillingness to not be trumped in a discussion... but again you are going WAY deep on this and I feel reaching to find some relation between incidents that are not remotely related to what I am offering as a product.

I don't feel you are directly attacking us directly, but rather trying to point out lithium is sort of more harmful than lead.... but that is arguable to a high degree... .just do some searches on Lead Acid battery explosions... that a big rabbit hole.

If you notice in your article most of those incidents involved Short-Circuiting.... But if you read what I said... our battery has Short-Circuit protections, so it can't short circuit. Your article is correct in its reporting... but what you are failing to realize is that most of those shipments were just raw Lithium Cells, or batteries being packed in a way that allowed Short-Circuiting of the Batteries, and they didn't have a BMS with Short Circuit protections as our products do have. I assume they were also not realized products encased in a hard shell like an Auto Battery. So if you shipping a pallet of raw lithium cells not properly packaged, how it that relatable to a product that is built with safety features inside a hard plastic Case and that can't short circuit?

So I understand your perspective... I'm fine with you not accepting lithium as an alternative for you. But lets keep it in perspective and not inflate its use as more dangerous than Lead/Acid or somehow worse. It is absolutely not. It just a newer technology, and there is still a large number of misconceptions about it, and even mis-use. . But a quality, reputable company making a lithium battery with the proper protections in place is not dangerous. Unless you want to call out any battery as being dangerous which can easily be said also of Lead/Acid. Do a search for Lead Acid explosion and thermal runaway.

Anyway I've said my piece, I'm not the type to go back and forth. If anyone has any questions on this technology I will answer them honestly.

0Antigravity

Write to me at scott@antigravitybatteries.com