H82BFST

Well..

.. you guys decide by GM current trends of standardizing everything!

LS1 (f-body/Vette) = VORTEC (Trucks)
Ecotec = Every fricken small GM car INCLUDING Saturns
Magnaride = C5 (50th), C6, XLR, 03' Seville...
so on, so on


-4.6L XLR Northstar = 315HP
-A 5.7L Northstar would equal 390HP
...ummm, so where are all those confirmed reports that the first C6's will have 380hp??? ;)

Face it guys, platform parts commonality saves a manufacturer tons of $$$$ in more ways then one.

Why would GM REDESIGN 80% of the NORTHSTAR with advanced intake/exhaust VVT and mounting for a future factory supercharger IF and ONLY IF this engine was exclusive to the Caddy XLR???

Keep in mind that GM had visions of ALL sorts of V6 engines for the mid-sized cars, most of which didn't materialize. Could this be:

Small GM cars = Ecotec I4 (TONs of GMPP parts in the works for it already!)
Midsize Cars = V6 ????? whatever
Midsize Trucks = Vortec I6 4.2L, Vortec I5 3.5L, Vortec I4 2.8L
Large = 32V V8 (Currently known as the XLR Northstar 4.6L)

Imagine the money saved if GM only had to offer 3 engines of various dispacement across the entire GM fleet! Not enough power, put a blower on it and call it something else in a different model line... well you get the point.

So, I ask you guys two questions:
1) WHY would GM make a dual cam pushrod V8 with VVT (originally reported as the LS2) when they ALREADY MADE A "NEW" powerful V8 branded as the next gen NORTHSTAR (obviously because of the caddy home) and could save MASSIVE money on common drivetrains/parts?

2) Would you REALLY be PISSED if, in fact, the C6 came out with a 5.7L 380hp 32V (LS2 or what not) that reved to oh 7500rpm???

GM, make mine the... (shhhhhh.... n o r t h s t ar) ;)

John
BTW, guys, just think, GM says mounting for an SC is built in, hmmm, ZO6, 6.0L w/ a blower???... Where is that Viper???? :cheers:



[Modified by H82BFST, 8:32 AM 9/22/2002]

ZR1991

I think in spite of your good arguments that the C6 will have a "Corvette" engine.

The Northstar is where the LT5 technology went (along with the Aurora V8 which, ironically, Chevy now has back, because it took over building the Indy engines). So Corvette has resisted the technology before.

The development of the Northstar can be justified by the eminent return of rear drive platforms, therefore, not the need to share with Corvette.

Regards,

H82BFST

You are probably correct, but would this rev happy 32v'er be such a bad thing? After all, GM doesn't create concepts like the XV8 for the heck of it and isn't going to GLOBAL standardization of product JUST to exclude the vette and make it truely unique.

On that note, WHY are we seeing SO much of the XLR and NO and I mean ZIPPO DETAILS on the new Northstar? Why is that? Heck, you can take virtual tours of the upcoming I5 and I4's for the trucks but the new Northstar is under wraps.

Do you guys seriously think GM can resist from dumping pushrods in their V8's when all their smaller engines are or will be DOHC??

Guys, keep this in mind, with the F-Body gone, is the Vette FINALLY going to have it's own unique engine and can GM justify it JUST for the vette?

The C6 MAY truely be special in this way, but I'm betting the the bean counters prevail.

(Don't shoot the messenger. ;) I hope I'm wrong)

Jinx

The Northstar is a bigger, taller, and heavier engine than the LS1/Vortec.

Corvette will continue to share engine technology with trucks, and this is fine with me.

Cadillac built a new Northstar to go in the next Seville, which will be rear-wheel-drive. There is also a tall-wagon built from the CTS that will get the new Northstar.

You're not hearing much about the new Northstar because it's not significantly different from the old one. It's a refinement, not a revolution. It helps that it's still more than six months away from production.

The XV8 will go in front-drive W-body replacements.

The Corvette engine will continue to be shared, in architecture if not parts, with trucks and other specialty vehicles. The hot-rod CTS and Pontiac GTO come to mind.

And you're right, the bean-counters will prevail. The Corvette engine will be substantially cheaper than the Northstar. And by delivering more power for less mass, it lowers the cost on the rest of the car (it can meet performance targets with less exotic & expensive engineering).

In short, your conspiracy theory belongs on the X-Files.

.Jinx

H82BFST

Heck Jinx, since you know SO much more about the RWD Northstar then the rest of us, can you please share the dimensions and specs compared to an LS1/LS6?

Now that Cadillac has a RWD Northstar, why would they bother putting in a "less sophisticated" Corvette pushrod engine you claim into their own PERFORMANCE Cadillac CTS? :rolleyes: I think you're likely to see a blower on that northstar first, no? (The GTO is a Bob Lutz test, it does not mean it will survive, I guess we should watch and see what Holden ends up using in the engine bay from GM)

And you don't think that spreading the cost across many platforms to increase engne production volume doesn't make it cheaper? It's already tested, certified, etc.. etc..

Conspiracy theory... haha someone's watching a little to much sci-fi these days eh? I'm just mearly stating what looks like a GM trend from and outsiders point of view. ;)

Hey, I'm probably wrong, but then again, I run into truck owners who claim they have a VORTEC engine and not an LS1 with a different intake. If GM changes the intake on the Northstar and calls it a "Corvette LS2" then I will follow the rest of the Lemmings and call it and LS2 also. :blueangel:

vader86

Theyre not going to put a Northstar in the C6. It will be pushrods, prolly 6.0L Gen IV V8.

Down the road, i do think the Corvette will have another DOHC or quad-cam engine, but for now theyre too heavy.

smart12585

I'm 99% positive the XLR will have a "Northstar" V8, not the chevy LS1.
There's a Pre-Production flyer sent to Cadillac dealers (I've seen it) that lists "Northstar Powered", so unless they're renaming the LS1, It will be caddy powered.
Only Trans is 5-speed auto.

:D http://www.cadillac-xlr.com


[Modified by smart12585, 7:19 PM 9/22/2002]

ZR1991

Being a ZR-1/LT5 owner, I agree that the multi cam should reappear, much like H82BFST suggests, but I am resigned to the points made by the others.

It's just that every truly high performance car in the world, from Ferrari on down (including some in the C5's price range), can do overhead cams, even in v12's, but Chevy can't wean itself from the SBC for the Corvette.

Perhaps too much allowance given to the past traditions (and older customers?). I hope not, but I wonder? Value is of course important, but the competition is really getting close.

Regards,

PS to "smart": I agree; The debate is over the Corvette engine, not the Caddy engine.


[Modified by ZR1991, 6:46 PM 9/22/2002]

Jinx

No, apparently just more than you. The relative size and mass of the LS1 and the Northstar is well-known. See ACAR and the recent XLR preview in Car & Driver.

Maximum Bob Lutz wanted a quick fix M5 competitor. It doesn't hurt that the LS1/LS6 is lighter and more powerful. The Northstar would need a blower (even more weight and cost) to compete with the M5. The LS6 delivers right from the parts bin. This project too is well-known around these parts. (Knowing GM, they may yet kill it.)

Holden already uses the LS1 in their home market. It'll be an LS1 when it gets here, too. This too is well known.

Cheaper than an LS1? Not likely. More material, more parts, more assembly. Oh, and still bigger, heavier, and less powerful. Yeah, that's progress for Corvette.

The new Northstar? Not yet it's not.

Somebody else isn't reading enough generally-available automotive enthusiast information.

.Jinx

H82BFST

Jinx

1) Thank you for the reference. Obviously, I must be the only one in the world that missed the Car & Driver one.

2) I believe in Bob Lutz. IF he has the pull at GM that everyone says he does, then he knows better then NOT to use the LS6 engine in the PERFORMANCE version that is to be an M5 fighter. Not ONLY will the media laugh at the use of a pushrod engine to fight a FLAGSHIP WORLD car, but potential M5 buyers WON'T give the caddy a second glance to an inferior engine (read, less paper sophisticated). I know, I know, we know better.... it may be faster, blah blah blah, but IMAGE sells and the perception of BETTER technology sells. Heck, I'd want an LS6 in the CTS so I can mod it and walk the BMW's all day. Does that make me a typical BMW buyer??? HELL NO! I will say it again. HELL NO! So, on the flip side, HOW many BMW potential buyers are you going to get buy an AMERICAN FLAGSHIP with pushrods when the rest of the world thinks pushrods are a JOKE!?!?!?

3) Thanks for the news flash. :rolleyes: Since I do some engineering work for the Holdens, I wasn't aware of this. LOLs . Sorry, what I meant in my original post was that the GTO is a fill in car for a crying American Public while GM gets their performance **** in gear.

4) LS1 cheap??? Haha.. I hope it is for GM's sake on their end, because on our hotrodding consumer level end, the aftermarket is BENDING ALL OF US OVER HARD! Ford could make it cost effective to put a 32V in a womens car (Mustang) and you don't think GM can in their FLAGSHIP SPORTS CAR!!!! bwahahaha... keep reading those consumer rags Jinx

5) Really, not tested, not running? Please don't tell me it's because you didn't read a road test article in a consumer mag stating so?


Sorry Jinx, I felt compelled to reply. It must of been that breakfast I ate this morning. ;) In reality, this is all irrelavent chat and GM already knows. Time tells all, they say. We will eventually find out and accept it.

I will say this, one of the main focuses of the C6 is to be a WORLD CAR right? Thus the new size of the car etc, right? Well, the WORLD doesn't accept 2 things 1) Displacement (unless and exotic in some cases and the vette is NOT and exotic) , 2)Pushrods.

Last breakfast thought: That being said, if the pushrod days are in fact NOT short, the bottom line WILL be! (Of course in a WORLD market beyond our own continents EGO!)

Take care and I'll be sure to keep up with all my mag subscriptions.
:cheers:


[Modified by H82BFST, 2:58 PM 9/23/2002]

H82BFST

opps... I meant 3 things in a WORLD car. Third being a POWER retractable soft top on the verts. :)

Jinx - A light suggestion, read some of the world MAGs (not C&D, MT, etc) and see what they think of our cars! Even our FLASHIPS Sports Car!

Back to my ORIGINAL 2 questions, second being more important for us here on CF... Would you guys REALLY be PISSED if, in fact, the C6 came out with a 5.7L 380hp 32V (LS2 or what not) engine that reved to oh 7500rpm???

Mervz

wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong..

CAN I SAY IT AGAIN? WRONG!

vader86

I dont really care what the WORLD thinks about american sports cars.

I want a gas-guzzling hog that can smoke the tires into 2nd gear, i want 600-700rwhp, i dont care about amenities when it comes to a sports car.

All i want is an alternator and an engine. And i want it to be so loud that it sets off every car alarm in town.

If i wanted superior quality, id buy a Mercedes. If i was filthy rich and wanted to get raped by inferior quality and reliability, id buy a Ferrari or Lambo.


[Modified by vader86, 11:56 AM 9/23/2002]

H82BFST

Umm, okay, maybe if we were the only ones on this planet... Much to the suprise of billions of people and to why they are so fond of us.

You just described a car that has just ended it's production. It's called the Muscle Car and it was the F-Body NOT a WORLD sports car like the vette.

So you want a crappy quality in your next vette? I don't understand.

Let me ask you guys:
- Are ZR1's slow?
- Isn't interior quality and fit and finish on of the biggest C5 owners pet peeves?

GM CAN build a high horsepower, high tech, superior quality lightweight Corvette at a reasonable corvette price and still make a killing on each one.

The C5 was the first step, let's vote and make the C6 THE Corvette to be whispered about WORLD wide! :) :cheers:

Justin1984

no they're not slow, but the Z06 is as fast/faster with a pushrod V8.

At 30,000 units/year (or less) nobody is making a "killing" selling Corvettes.

The Zr1 may be a good example, but not the way you intended. Wasn't the "high tech" LT5 mistakenly expected to sell 1500+ units per year by Chevrolet? The total production was 4600 or so. How much has changed since the Zr1 dis-appeared...is it Chevy's desire to produce a low displacement "high-tech" V8 "World-Car" Corvette at the expense of possibly alienating the bulk of Corvette buyers? GM already did something like that in the 70's when the fleet was downsized (with poorly executed ideas) to meet fuel economy and emmision regulation and Caddy (and others) lost a big chunk of market share.

The desires of Corvette buyers has been consistent for many years, why should they change the formula now?

H82BFST

My only comparison to the ZR1 was to show that 4 cam vette's can be fast. Sure, the ZO6 is just as fast, etc. But heck, a decade of engineering will do that to you! ;) Evolution and refinement of the smallblock. The ZR1 engine was an exotic in it's time. A 4 CAM engine in a Vette TODAY would SIMPLY be "keep up with the times!!!" Heck, just be THANKFUL that we are getting large displacement because eventually turbo's will prevail the rest of the market. ;)

Yep, 30,000 units... now say a more "modern" powerplant sold another 20 or 30K. Reduced costs, more $$$. Heck, if Ford can make 17K profit per Navigator and Honda makes about $1K + per vehicle across it's entire line. It is horrible that GM only make about what??? $300 per vehicle? Follow the formula, standardize like they have and increase profits.

Yes, the market was not ready for a 60-70K vette when vette's went for 30K. It was for bragging rights and I doubt GM expected to make $$$ on it. Times are different, GM should be able to justify a 32V in a 50K car in this day and age. To go out on a limb with the C6 like they did with the ZR1, they would have to make a 100K version with and exotic V8, maybe something like a 5.7L direct injection, valveless, etc.. etc.. edition. You get the idea.

You don't want consistency, you want GROWTH. What attracts growth from "outside the box" - refinement to attract a newer, ever expanding base of customers.

Why can't we have a 5.7L 32V engine? Why are you guys so BENT (which many pushrods do on mis-shifts ;) ) on having a pushrod engine?
Recently, we had the end of the GM's Muscle car era. GM will NOT be able to turn around fast enough in that market segment to offset the ever expanding Ricer trend. (Although they are trying WAY fricken hard with the Sunfire/Cavalier/ION) - However, I'm sure ALL of here would NEVER consider this the "New" Musclecar era. Thus, I state that it is dead.

THAT generation will eventually grow up. Where are they going to go to look for a WORLD class performance solution???? A PUSHROD vette??? Ummm, sorry, I don't think so. These guys are used to cams and turbos.
The rest of the world doesn't like LARGE displacement and rather have turbo's because their fuel is outrageous, their countries penalize them for LARGE engines, etc.

Don't let another era and legend die because of a 16 metal sticks ;)

Jinx - I'm still waiting on the number comparision for the RWD northstar. I know the front driver 4.6L northstar with accessories is 470lbs. What's and LS6 with all the accessories?




[Modified by H82BFST, 4:42 AM 9/24/2002]

STONEjam

The Camaro is scheduled to return to production on either '05 or '06. Prototypes for it were shown at this years auto show circuit.

vader86

simple answer, low-end torque/quicker acceleration

texnteg

you say the musclecar era is over, no it has transformed to meet public demand. we have mustangs with 390hp. you can buy a family sedan with 250+ hp. i know you drive a vette and i don't, but i'm not sure you understand the point of a corvette. it is an american car that is an american icon. the corvette is a car that says" we do sports cars our way, good ole' american V8 and lots of torque" you can have an engine that revs to 7500rpm, but thats where the power will be, with not much torque. trust me, i had a car with 200whp at 8000rpm, and a little torque at 3500-4000 rpms. a pushrod engine is just as efficient in power output as a OHC design. the pushrod is a much less complex motor to design and build and work on. a vette doesn't need to keep up with the times, it makes its own, just like the viper. they are niche vehicles, a vette owner doesn't want everyone else to have one or it is not unique. thats the benefit of competing sports cars. the vette having a pushrod motor is like the porsche having a boxer motor, its tradition. don't mess with tradition. and GM makes just enough to get profit on the corvette, it is not bread-and-butter vehicle, so they aren't expecting large returns. if you want the OHC 5.7l in the next vette, be prepared to give up the low seating position cause you'll have to sit higher to see over the bulky hood and have more understeer due to a unbalance vehicle with more weight up front. yes, if an engine is of the same size, the OHC will be heavier and bulkier because of the cam placement, the complexity of the design, and it will have to be built with more durable materials to ensure nothing flies apart cause it is just not a simple design and there are many more moving parts, and those parts move at incredible speeds. i have been driving OHC(2 integras with 1.8l DOHC VTEC I-4's) vehicles, one with 140hp and the other with 200hp. i know the 140hp version would last longer because it is not as stressed, even though the motor in the Type-R is handbuilt and with higher spec materials/parts. just live with the fact that the pushrod 5.7 is much better than the OHC 5.7. and i read the UK mags(Evo, Top Gear, Car), they liked the vette, but said it was LHD only, too wide, and too expensive due to import taxes. it got just as good fuel mileage and turned out better numbers than many. not too long ago, the Z06 competed with many european sports cars, and they loved the Z, but the downfalls are listed above. the viper is too much of a best for whiny brits to tame. screw em.

H82BFST

Scheduled - LOTS of things get scheduled and planned in life. Unfortunately, life is what happens as you try to plan it. That being said, even if it returns in 4 years, it'll be a damn uphill battle for GM if they don't nail it on the head. God forbid it returns like the Impala or Malibu did! :U
In 4 years, the performance version of the Cavalier will probably have 300hp! :rolleyes: ;)