Lifeforce

I am having start problems with a 2012 GS and I suspect it might be in the grounding cable. I am told that Bill Curlee is the expert in this area. Is there a way I can contact him through this forum? Thanks in advance. Tom

EBvette02

Why don't you post the issues that you are having? So other people can chime in.

FortMorganAl

Is this the Bill Curlee you're looking for?
http://billcurlee.com/Bill_Curlee_Website/Welcome.html

Didn't think so. As noted, if you have an issue, tell us what it is and we'll give you suggestions. Ask us to locate a generic person and we'll give you a simple answer.

Landru

Hey Tom, be helpful if you posted the handle 'Bill Curlee' uses.
Forum has several thousand members, most use something other than their real name.

As to the issue...are there any codes?
Can buy a code reader for ~$50, or can go to most chain parts stores, they've a reader & will scan any the error(s) present.

Otherwise its been reported by numerous members experiencing similar symptoms the posts on the starter can become loose, IIRC the wires can burn due to header heat & either break completely or become an intermittent starting issue.
Get the car into the air & check the starter's connections if only to rule-out this potential cause.

Hope it's simple like above, but if not since you're still covered under 3/36 get it to your dealer so they can troubleshoot & make it right.
G/L & please do post whatever it turns out to be.

Lifeforce

Hi Landru: Thanks for the response. The reason why I asked about Bill Curlee is out of desperation. I have been dinking around with intermittentd start problems since April of last year. I have posted three times to the forum without success. So let me give it up in a nutshell. When this beast is really cold, it will crank like crazy but wlll not fire. It feels like no fuel or extremely lean mixture. When it has reached optimal operating temp, such as 198 F. on the coolant and 200 plus on the oil temp, if I leave it sit for a fifteen minutes it will do the same. But sometimes it will flutter and kick and burp as if it is flooded or the miture is really rich. You can smell the fumes coming out of the pipes.

Lifeforce

[QUOTE=Lifeforce;1586731033]Hi Landru: Let me try this one more time. I keep screwing up this message and the last two were sent prematurely. First, thanks for the response. The reason why I asked about Bill Curlee is out of desperation. No offense. I know you guys try real hard to be helpful. But, I have been dinking around with intermittent start problems since April of last year. I have posted three times to the forum without success. So let me give it up in a nutshell. When this beast is really cold, it will crank like crazy but will not fire. It feels like no fuel or extremely lean mixture.
This spring I had it out several times. It started up cold no problem, but the air temperature was warmer. In the warm weather the problem starts when it has reached optimal operating temp, such as 198 F. on the coolant and 200 plus on the oil temp, if I shut it off warm, and I leave it sit for a fifteen minutes it will do the same. Crank like crazy but not fire. And sometimes (again when it is warm) it will flutter and kick and burp as if it is flooded or the mixture is really rich. You can smell the fumes coming out of the pipes. The dealer put a code reader in the car and asked me to duplicate the issue. I did and he said that there a fault in the negative side battery cable. He wants to put in a new cable. He claims that when this issue arises there is enough voltage to turn the starter motor, but not enough to run the injectors. Make sense? Thanks in advance for your help and concern. Tom p.s. I am not a mechanic or an electrician so try and keep simple. Smile...

Lifeforce

[QUOTE=Lifeforce;1586731033]Hi Landru: Wanted to ask a silly question. You referred to the IIRC in your last post. Hate to show my ignorance, but what exactly is that? BTW, I am going to check the connections into the starter motor. Thanks... Tom

Mack1919

[QUOTE=Lifeforce;1586731339]If you can smell fuel coming out the pipes, I would start looking for an ignition problem. As Landru suggested, you really need to read the codes to find out what's going on.

Mack

Rich Mickol

Sorry to hear you're having a problem. Why not just take it to the dealer and let them diagnosis the problem. It should still be under warranty. Leave it at the dealer so they can start it up cold.
Good luck

whitehooptie

Quickly, there was one guy on here that had similar problems and it turned out the blue connector on the BCM in the passenger side footwell was loose. Maybe something quick to look at.

If the battery has enough power to turn the engine over, it has enough juice to fire the injectors. According to their logic, the injectors pull more amps than the starter. Yeah.

FortMorganAl

I can only find 2 prior but now we are getting somewhere.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...and-sport.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...h-2012-gs.html

Reviewing those threads you were given a lot of good information and a little but, in general the good info was repeated and the was not repeated. That should be all we need except... My shop manual doesn't list that as a valid code for a C6. I managed to find it as a valid code for a fuel tank transfer pump in a pick-up truck but the C6 fuel transfer is done with one pipe inside another pipe (venturi pump) and no moving parts. Next to impossible to fail and no measurement of the flow is done. On the other hand, a few people have reported it as a valid code for the two fuel level sensors which would have nothing to do with a starting problem, only the fuel gauge reading going to zero. But one person who reported that code was also having a problem with fuel pressure that seemed to be an issue with the wiring to the left fuel tank being damaged and failing when the clutch was depressed causing both a fuel level sensor issue and loss of power to the one fuel pump we have.

ARGH!!! The dealer is full of crap! A fault in the negative battery cable would stop the cranking instantly. There is no way you could crank for 15 seconds and not start because of EITHER battery cable being bad or a battery issue. The starter motor takes 1,000 times as much current as the fuel injectors! The fuel injectors DO need a minimum voltage and the pulses that are sent to them are adjusted to compensate for low voltage. But if the voltage is so low that the injector pulse width can not be stretched long enough, the engine would no longer be turning over. You would just have a click when you pushed start.

OK, here is what it takes to start the car:
When the ECM (Engine Control Module - a computer) detects reference pulses from the CKP (Crankshaft Position - sensor that tells the ECM the engine is turning) sensor, the ECM will enable the fuel pump. The fuel pump runs and builds pressure in the fuel system. The ECM then monitors the MAF (Mass Air Flow sensor - how much air is going in), IAT (Inlet Air Temperature - temperature of the air going in), ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature - water temperature) sensor, and the TP (Throttle Position - throttle position on the engine not the accelerator position which can be different) sensor signal in order to determine the required injector pulse width for starting (how long each fuel injector on each cylinder is opened which, with a constant fuel pressure would indicate how much fuel is injected into the cylinder).

As others have indicated, the IAT and ECT are temperature measurements that are critical to starting and would change with cold/hot engines. But a constant fuel pressure is also required. I think the clue for me is that you smell gas when warm. That would indicate a temperature sensor more than fuel pressure issue. A bad temperature sensor should affect both starting and warm idle until the engine comes up to full operating temperature when the temperature sensors are no longer used and the oxygen sensors in the exhaust are used to determine the fuel requirements. It's getting a little late in the morning for me so I don't have time to be certain but I think the coolant temp that the ECM uses is the same as the one the BCM (Body Control Module - another computer that runs the rest of the car) uses to display the coolant temperature. In that case the ECT is good and only the IAT would be bad.

No problem. We're here to help. There is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity. I have little tolerance for stupidity but ignorance is easily remedied. There are no dumb questions, just ask. It makes us feel superior when we can answer dumb questions. <- that indicates a joke.

Landru

Tom, first-off absolutely no offense taken. In your shoes I'd feel somewhat desperate, also. CF's primary utility's providing Corvette enthusiasts a venue for seeking help ID'g an issue.

Suspected issue was an intermittent, worst kind.

Read the two threads from you seeking help FtMorganAl posted.
Can better understand your reluctance making a 200 mile dealer round trip. While a dealer trip is your last choice, unfortunately it may be your only choice. Be thinking your car will likely have to go to Chevrolet if this is to be rectified, properly. Make sure dealer duplicates condition(s) preceding the issue, starting with it being 'cold'.

FWIW Al's a pretty sharp guy, believe he's an EE as myself. Big difference being I was a controls designer, Al sounds like he's worked in the automotive field or one closely associated. Man provides sound advise in any event, IMO.

Issues don't always set an error code, you stated a code was set although per Al, it isn't a valid C6 code.
Could you have copied the code wrong?
Check your empiricals again w/ a OBDII reader because obviously a valid code would do wonders properly identifying this culprit.

An acronym: If I Recall Correctly.

MUCH easier to do if car's on a lift as you either already learned, or will. Nonetheless, if you did were the starter connections tight?

Tom, hate to say but as other members on all 3 posts suggested I also highly recommend taking the car to your dealer. Let them figure it out. Let them pick it up w/ a flatbed & refuse accepting it back until it's right and IF it continues? Have them pick it up again until its resolved.
They'll get fed-up paying towing fees before you tire sending it back. Paid good money for your car *&* the warranty Tom, you deserve satisfaction.

Will BTTT this post in hopes someone else will read it & chime-in with something germane. Again, don't quit posting on this issue until its been resolved to your satisfaction! When this type of aggravating issue's ID'd we ALL learn.

At this stage I'd also suggest preparing to track down the forum's Chevrolet rep. Chevrolet pays people to monitor the board for just such instances as yours. They'll inform your dealer they're now in the loop & hopefully lend an air of urgency getting it fixed. Once a dealer knows corporate's involved, (usually) they make it a priority.

Neil Baker

Yes, find a good dealer with a Corvette guy and it will be fixed ASAP.

Lifeforce

Hey Guys: You are awesome. I feel like I am finally getting somewhere. I can't reply in detail because of time constraints. But I will have a detailed response tonight. Many, many thanks for all your considerate attention to my problem. Tom

Lifeforce

Hi Landru and Fort Morgan: Thanks again for all your sage advice. I have suspected a sensor problem all along. And your suspicion of a defective IAT makes a lot of sense since this problem really looks like a temperature related issue. Cold hair and then hot air. Again, just to recap, in the very cold of winter it will crank like crazy but not fire. In the warm weather, like now, it will start up cold, but when I warm it up, and then shut it off, and let it sit for for fifteen minutes or more, it will not start. But in the "warmed up scenario" two things can happen. It will either crank like crazy as though the mixture were very lean, or it will sputter as though the mixture was rich. In both cases it will not start until the engine cools way down.
I have a few questions. The dealer has had the car twice. I am already in touch with the "District after market sales representative" for Chevy. The dealer put me in touch with the guy. We have exchanged small talk on the phone but nothing in depth concerning the car issues. He just assured me that I should call him for help. Is this the guy I should be talking too? Or should I get in touch with the Chevy Rep on THE FORUM? If I need to touch base with the Chevy Rep on the Forum, how do I get in touch with him? Landru, what did you mean when you said the car might have to "go back to Chevy?" Does that mean it literally goes back to the company and not the dealership. Also, where can I buy an OBDII reader? Right now, I am game for anything.
I think you guys are right that there is a bad sensor. I would like to have the evidence when I take this beast to the dealer. I hate to say it, but I suspect they are playing the warranty game. I have a hard time buying into this business that the battery cable is bad.
AGain, many thanks for your help. Any additional thoughts would be greatly appreciate. Tom

FortMorganAl

If the car cranks like crazy it is NOT a battery or cable problem. You've been to Missoula twice and they have done nothing except bill GM. Since it is under warranty a new cable isn't costing you money but it is totally wasting your time. Has enough snow melted to get into Kellog? I hate dealers as much as root canal but I would let a dealer fix this because it is not a common issue. It shouldn't be hard to find with a Tech II which is the VERY expensive code reader/diagnostic tool the dealer will have. But obviously the dealer you went to didn't bother to use it or didn't use it correctly. I'm leaning toward the IAT but we have not eliminated a lot of other things that could cause a strong crank but no start issue. We have not eliminated ignition or even a bad ECM. Wiring connectors are also temperature sensitive. Valid codes should be set but even if they aren't that tells us the things that do set codes are not the issue.
Chevy Cust Svc http://forums.corvetteforum.com/intr...r-service.html but all they will do is pat you on the head and give you the address of a dealer and MAYBE the phone number of the District Manager you are already talking to. But wait, you say you are talking to District SALES? You need to be talking to someone in SERVICE. I REALLY think it's time to get a second opinion. Even just calling the service department of another dealership and asking for their opinion might lead to a better result than what you have gotten so far from the dealer in Missoula. And if you wait too long it will get warn and the issue will be harder to find.

Three things can make you an expert on Corvettes who knows more than most dealer techs I've been involved with - the shop manual they have but don't read, a code scanner, and a computer connected to the Internet.

You already have the computer.

Shop Service Manual - http://www.helminc.com/helm/welcome_...asp?Style=helm $200 but you might get a better price from GM Parts House. My older set is over 4700 pages written by the people who designed the car. It can easily be worth $200 on a single out of warranty repair.

Code scanner - There are lots of OBDII CAN Bus enabled scanners from $25 to $1,000. It just has to be CAN Bus enabled. Other than that they are just simple or bells and whistles. $50 tells you the code number that you then look up on the Internet. $100 might give you a verbal description that is good enough not to have to go to the computer but you're probably going to do that anyway. $1,000 records the time, date, phase of the moon, and price of avocodos at the moment the code was set. I have and like my Actron but there are many others.

BTW, Landru also gave you some good advice about not giving up. This is a very popular forum so posts tend to scroll off fairly quickly. I never saw any of your prior threads. You need to post at different times of day. Some of us are morning people and some are night owls and the night owls seldom see the morning people and vice versa. If no one is answering post a reply that says only TTT which we know means To The Top.

Lifeforce

Hi Al and Landru:
Thanks again for your response. You asked if I could get the car to Kellogg. Quick answer is no. The pass is still snowed in. Also, Dave Smith dealership (which is where I bought the car) is a great place to buy a car, but notoriously bad when it comes to service. They can screw up an oil change. Karl Tyler Chevy, Cadillac has a much better rep when it comes to service, and that is why I am dealing with them. .
You said something in your recent post that suggests to me that you may not have a totally correct perception on what is happening. This is NOT just a cold start issue. The car will NOT start in extreme cold weather such as what we had in December and January. Just crank. In the warmer weather, such as right now, the character of the problem CHANGES COMPLETELY. The car will start right up on a cold engine but it will not start once the engine warms up. The failure to start occurs AFTER I shut off a hot engine, and let it sit for a while. Sometimes it cranks like crazy but will not fire. Other times it just sputters and will not fire. I usually have to let the car sit for four or five hours before it cools down enough to where it will restart.
Regarding the Tech II, the dealer could not use it, because when the car was in the shop they "could not duplicate the issue." It started up just fine. They said they checked all the wiring, and could find nothing. They gave me a data recorder, which I assume is a "code reader/scanner" and showed me how to work it when the issue came back. I drove the car back home, shut it off, and it would not restart. I started the data recorder and tried to start five times without success.The data recorder was running and recording the codes during the start sequence. Presumably it got the data indicating the problem. Several days later I took the data recorder to the dealership. They called me in three days and said the data recorder shows that: "the battery cables are defective." According to the dealer "there is a voltage drop into the ignition switch and there is not enough electric power for the injector pulse and probably the fuel pump." They also said that this is a real common problem with the new Tahoes.
Looks like I need to invest in a shop manual and a scanner. I was up late last night trying to find one. There are so many it is literally overwhelming. LOL. I am going to take a look at the Actron.
Again, thanks for all your help. tom p.s. I will let you know what happens.

Landru

Tom, IMO what Al describes above is likely at the root of your cold/hot starting issue. (Infact as a betting man I'd put my money on his theory.)

Insist your dealer check the IAT sensor to confirm it's functioning as designed. Personally this would be the first I'd heard of an ITA sensor issue, probably explains why more members aren't familiar with its symptoms, able to lend assistance.

If ITA's good and they're still hell bent on replacing the harness, let them. No skin off your nose. Right? As I said if they don't make it right send it back until they do. They'll get tired of the problem, fast.
Got to be tenacious, Tom.

At this stage your dealer would be wise getting Bowling Green involved toward solving this once & for finally, assuming they can't.

This can't be a serious issue Tom, just a PITA nailing down the cause further mandating the importance of correct error codes. Have you been able to extract any error code(s), yet?
I know what the dealer told you but would feel better hearing what you actually found, if anything.

One last thing...have you posted this issue in C6 Technical?
If not you might consider doing so, Tech may provide additional info as opposed to C6 General.

Lifeforce

Hi Landru:

Thanks for the comeback. Any thoughts are productive. If nothing else I am learning a lot about a very sassy car. I knew it had a high PITA factor but nothing like this. LOL...
I am pretty much locked into the warranty game with the dealer and GM. So, I am going to let them pull that wiring harness out (gulp) and put in a new one. Then I am going to have my guy run some scans and see what comes up.
Also, I thought of a couple of things just lately that makes me wonder whether the dealer might be on the right track. this car only has 3100 miles on it. It would be an extreme situation for an the IAT to be defective right out of the box. But then I guess it is possible. In any event the dealer said they checked the IAT. Did they????I have to assume they did.
Also, On the first oil change my mechanic here in Thompson Falls, discovered two screws/nuts that were loose on the undercarriage. I am thinking maybe there are more. Maybe the negative battery lead is lose. Maybe the positive battery cable into the starter is loose. I am going to have my guy put her up on the lift and check all the connections.
Also, I found the following comment on the Corvette forum with symptoms similar to mine. Turned out the cause was a defective battery cable. Here is what he recommended: "Measure the voltage at the starter motor terminals. Voltage should not fall below 9.0 volts during cranking. You may have a defective battery cable down to the starter motor. **** Another place to look is the quality of the neg battery cable and its connection to the block. Measure the voltage drop from the neg battery terminal to the block during a crank attempt, it shouldn't be higher than about 1.5 volts. Make the same measurement from the positive battery terminal to the starter motor large cable connection. Another possibility would be the large copper conductors in the starter motor that is forced together at the end of the starter solenoid stroke which switches current to the starter motor. These contacts get pitted and blackened and eventually don't make a low enough resistance connection to pass the 200-300 amps the starter motor draws. Since you have a new starter, I doubt this is your problem. Also the battery all by itself, its voltage at the battery posts should not fall below 9.0 volts during cranking or the cable connection needs cleaning, battery is discharged, or the battery is at the end of its life. It won't hurt to remove the battery cables (neg first) and clean the cable lugs, battery posts, and bolts and reconnect the cables (neg last)."""
Thanks for the suggestion to check with C6 technical. I did not know there was such a thing. Can you give me a hint on how I make that connection on this forum?
Thanks again. I will keep you posted. Tom

RKInIL

How many miles are on it? Take it to the Dealer and let them worry about it it still should be under warranty.