dealer warranty denial
10-02-2013, 06:40 PM
#41
These cars are meant to be driven as sports cars and shifted fast.
This is like adding additional padding to the bench seat in a cadillac then a dealership refusing to warranty an issue with the power seat. "Sir we will not fix your seat under warranty because Cadillacs are not designed to be that comfortable"
This is like adding additional padding to the bench seat in a cadillac then a dealership refusing to warranty an issue with the power seat. "Sir we will not fix your seat under warranty because Cadillacs are not designed to be that comfortable"
10-02-2013, 09:23 PM
#43
Instructor
2011 Chevrolet Corvette | Corvette VIN Y Service Manual | Document ID: 2699000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#PIP4939: Aftermarket Shift Levers Gear Hop Out Or Clash - (Aug 4, 2011)
Subject: Aftermarket shift levers gear hop out or clash
Models: 2007-2012 Chevrolet Corvette
2007-2012 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2009-2012 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
2010-2012 Chevrolet Camaro SS
2009-2012 Cadillac CTS-V
With Tremac manual transmission RPO M10, MG9, MM6, ME2, MH3, MZ6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment on gear clash or shifter does not stay into selected gear (hop out). Customer may a comment on excessive shift effort. Also may have concerns of excessive noise from the shifter or shifter area. Upon inspection the vehicle may have an aftermarket shift lever installed.
Recommendation/Instructions:
For RWD manual transmission vehicles, the shift stop positions are designed internal to the transmission, neither GM or Tremec endorse using aftermarket shifters that incorporate external stops (See photo below) as they can cause several issues with the transmission including - hop out, incomplete gear engagement, clash, etc. The use of the external stops is not endorsed and any internal transmission damage associated with their use would not be a warrantable item.
Object ID: 2680177Click here for detailed picture of the image.
Hop Out: As the shift is being made the synchronizer sleeve is moved from a disengaged state and the internal teeth of the sleeve match up with the external teeth on the blocking ring. When pressure is applied to the blocking ring by the movement of the sleeve the blocking ring will, through friction surfaces, stop the speed gear allowing the sleeve to engage the clutching teeth on the speed gear. The internal transmission shift rods and levers have a designed point at which the synchronizer sleeve stops. This point is where the sleeve is fully engaged with the speed gear. Having the synchronizer sleeve fully engaged to the speed gear means less chance of the transmission hopping out of gear.
High shift effort: Excessive shift effort can be caused by shift levers that claim to“shorten the throw” or reduce the amount of travel at the driver's hand or arm. To achieve this, the lever is usually shorter or has altered the pivot point of the shift lever. When this is done there is less mechanical advantage to the driver and therefore increases effort to move the shift lever. Also if the pivot point is changed that can change the amount that the synchronizer sleeve is moved not allowing for a positive engagement to the speed gear
Gear Clash: GM Powertrain engineering and our transmission suppliers have taken proper steps to ensure that the speed gear is slowed down at the proper rate. Any attempts to force the speed gear to slow down any faster can cause the friction material or clutching teeth to be damaged causing the gear clash complaint.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
MGW shifters do not use stop screws
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#PIP4939: Aftermarket Shift Levers Gear Hop Out Or Clash - (Aug 4, 2011)
Subject: Aftermarket shift levers gear hop out or clash
Models: 2007-2012 Chevrolet Corvette
2007-2012 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2009-2012 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
2010-2012 Chevrolet Camaro SS
2009-2012 Cadillac CTS-V
With Tremac manual transmission RPO M10, MG9, MM6, ME2, MH3, MZ6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment on gear clash or shifter does not stay into selected gear (hop out). Customer may a comment on excessive shift effort. Also may have concerns of excessive noise from the shifter or shifter area. Upon inspection the vehicle may have an aftermarket shift lever installed.
Recommendation/Instructions:
For RWD manual transmission vehicles, the shift stop positions are designed internal to the transmission, neither GM or Tremec endorse using aftermarket shifters that incorporate external stops (See photo below) as they can cause several issues with the transmission including - hop out, incomplete gear engagement, clash, etc. The use of the external stops is not endorsed and any internal transmission damage associated with their use would not be a warrantable item.
Object ID: 2680177Click here for detailed picture of the image.
Hop Out: As the shift is being made the synchronizer sleeve is moved from a disengaged state and the internal teeth of the sleeve match up with the external teeth on the blocking ring. When pressure is applied to the blocking ring by the movement of the sleeve the blocking ring will, through friction surfaces, stop the speed gear allowing the sleeve to engage the clutching teeth on the speed gear. The internal transmission shift rods and levers have a designed point at which the synchronizer sleeve stops. This point is where the sleeve is fully engaged with the speed gear. Having the synchronizer sleeve fully engaged to the speed gear means less chance of the transmission hopping out of gear.
High shift effort: Excessive shift effort can be caused by shift levers that claim to“shorten the throw” or reduce the amount of travel at the driver's hand or arm. To achieve this, the lever is usually shorter or has altered the pivot point of the shift lever. When this is done there is less mechanical advantage to the driver and therefore increases effort to move the shift lever. Also if the pivot point is changed that can change the amount that the synchronizer sleeve is moved not allowing for a positive engagement to the speed gear
Gear Clash: GM Powertrain engineering and our transmission suppliers have taken proper steps to ensure that the speed gear is slowed down at the proper rate. Any attempts to force the speed gear to slow down any faster can cause the friction material or clutching teeth to be damaged causing the gear clash complaint.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
MGW shifters do not use stop screws
10-02-2013, 10:34 PM
#46
Instructor
I posted the PI to show how it addresses aftermarket shifters with stop screws,MGW does not stop screws. I have seen synchro and blocker ring issues with the tremec. I believe the dealer is taking the bulletin out of context because there are other bulletins for what is happening to the OP. #PIP4940: Additional Diagnostics Information For Manual Transmission And Transaxles - (Aug 4, 2011)
Subject: Additional diagnostic information for manual transmissions and transaxles
Models: 2009-2012 Cadillac CTS and CTS-V
2009-2012 Chevrolet Corvette, Corvette Z06 and Corvette ZR1
2010-2012 Chevrolet Camaro
2009-2011 Chevrolet Aveo HHR
2009-2010 Chevrolet Cobalt
2011-2012 Chevrolet Cruze
2012 Chevrolet Sonic
2009-2012 Chevrolet Colorado
2011-2012 Buick Regal
2009-2012 GMC Canyon With Manual transmission or transaxles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment on various transmissions or clutch related concerns that they feel need to be addressed. In the interest of customer satisfaction we need to ensure we accurately capture the operating conditions when the customers concern occurs. Riding with the customer can also be helpful as we may notice the customer rides with their foot resting on the clutch pedal, or does not push the clutch all the way down when shifting, or you may find that the customer operates their vehicle in a "normal" fashion. If the customers concern happens cold, first shift of the day then you might be better off having the customer leave their vehicle overnight so that you can attempt to duplicate the condition in the morning. If the condition occurs at normal operating temperatures make sure you operate the vehicle long enough to duplicate that condition. If the concern is low vehicle speed or low engine speeds then don’t operate the vehicle at highway speeds or high rpm. In order to duplicate the owner's concern you must identify when that concern occurs and drive the vehicle under the same conditions and in the same manner.
Recommendation/Instructions:
As a general diagnostic guideline starting with a cold vehicle, verify clutch operation, ensure that the vehicle can be put smoothly into gear at idle. Safely drive the vehicle through all gears at light to moderate throttle (up to 2500 rpm) ensure the clutch pedal is fully depressed prior to moving the shifter into the next gear both at a moderate and aggressive pace. Operation should be performed 5- 10 times and should not exhibit gear clash. Obey all local laws and operate the vehicle in an area where testing can be performed safely.
With the vehicle at operating temperature ensure that the transmission can still be put into all gears with no clash. Operate the vehicle in the upper 1/3 of the rpm range ensure that the clutch pedal is fully depressed and that the shifter can be moved into the next gear both at a moderate and aggressive pace. Shift lever
Subject: Additional diagnostic information for manual transmissions and transaxles
Models: 2009-2012 Cadillac CTS and CTS-V
2009-2012 Chevrolet Corvette, Corvette Z06 and Corvette ZR1
2010-2012 Chevrolet Camaro
2009-2011 Chevrolet Aveo HHR
2009-2010 Chevrolet Cobalt
2011-2012 Chevrolet Cruze
2012 Chevrolet Sonic
2009-2012 Chevrolet Colorado
2011-2012 Buick Regal
2009-2012 GMC Canyon With Manual transmission or transaxles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment on various transmissions or clutch related concerns that they feel need to be addressed. In the interest of customer satisfaction we need to ensure we accurately capture the operating conditions when the customers concern occurs. Riding with the customer can also be helpful as we may notice the customer rides with their foot resting on the clutch pedal, or does not push the clutch all the way down when shifting, or you may find that the customer operates their vehicle in a "normal" fashion. If the customers concern happens cold, first shift of the day then you might be better off having the customer leave their vehicle overnight so that you can attempt to duplicate the condition in the morning. If the condition occurs at normal operating temperatures make sure you operate the vehicle long enough to duplicate that condition. If the concern is low vehicle speed or low engine speeds then don’t operate the vehicle at highway speeds or high rpm. In order to duplicate the owner's concern you must identify when that concern occurs and drive the vehicle under the same conditions and in the same manner.
Recommendation/Instructions:
As a general diagnostic guideline starting with a cold vehicle, verify clutch operation, ensure that the vehicle can be put smoothly into gear at idle. Safely drive the vehicle through all gears at light to moderate throttle (up to 2500 rpm) ensure the clutch pedal is fully depressed prior to moving the shifter into the next gear both at a moderate and aggressive pace. Operation should be performed 5- 10 times and should not exhibit gear clash. Obey all local laws and operate the vehicle in an area where testing can be performed safely.
With the vehicle at operating temperature ensure that the transmission can still be put into all gears with no clash. Operate the vehicle in the upper 1/3 of the rpm range ensure that the clutch pedal is fully depressed and that the shifter can be moved into the next gear both at a moderate and aggressive pace. Shift lever
Damn!!
10-03-2013, 12:35 AM
#49
Race Director
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
Posts: 16,556
Received 2,062 Likes
on
1,506 Posts
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
If the test per the last bulletin posted calls for operating in the top 1/3 of the speed range, they can't do that on public roads without exceeding speed limits. 4th gear at 4300 rpm = 100 mph before shifting to 5th. I really don't know anyone who powershifts into an overdrive gear.
10-03-2013, 03:20 AM
#50
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jul 2013
Location: Rosewood Heights IL
Posts: 823
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
3 Posts
Unfortunately I think they can make the case that the shifter is the problem. I don't buy that it is, but even the bronze synchronizer should be working without issue at normal driving.
The issue you are having seems to go further than a blocker ring. Normal shifting should be plenty of time to match the speed of the gears, even with the pre-update bronze rings.
The issue you are having seems to go further than a blocker ring. Normal shifting should be plenty of time to match the speed of the gears, even with the pre-update bronze rings.
10-03-2013, 04:27 AM
#51
Le Mans Master
i just got off the phone with them. service guy stated that synchro failed because shifting is done faster with the short throw mgw unit and the trans is not designed for quick shifting. dealer wants $3000 for repair to synchros and 5th and 6th gear, gaskets, rear wheel alignment and some other bs. this decision for denial was made by a district GM manager according to service dept. so pissed.
as far as the magnuson act, how would i get them to prove the mgw caused the failure. i dont see how citing that act would help here.
as far as the magnuson act, how would i get them to prove the mgw caused the failure. i dont see how citing that act would help here.
He does understand this is a FU****G Corvette?
Its the law, they have to prove that is what caused it. Call your attorney General. Ask MGW for help. Stand out front with the sign.
The whole point of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 is to prohibit the kind of claims made by your dealer. It is up to HIM not you to prove the short throw shifter caused the problem. If he can prove it your beef is with MGW. If he can not he is required to repair it under warrantee.
Its the law, they have to prove that is what caused it. Call your attorney General. Ask MGW for help. Stand out front with the sign.
The whole point of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 is to prohibit the kind of claims made by your dealer. It is up to HIM not you to prove the short throw shifter caused the problem. If he can prove it your beef is with MGW. If he can not he is required to repair it under warrantee.
It is not you that has to make them prove it. It is on them to prove that the short shifter caused the issue. All they have right now is conjecture with no proof that the short shifter is what caused the failure. They see a short shifter and you are coming in with transmission issues. But to conclude that the short shifter caused the issue is specious reasoning at best.
I don't have a short shifter myself, but I am sure many do and have no issues with "shifting fast". I don't even know how to quantify that statement. What is the threshold for the transmission? How fast is too fast? Where is this documented? How can they prove that even with the short shifter you didn't shift any slower/faster than any other driver?
The key information here is, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is on your side not theirs. I would get GM involved.
I don't have a short shifter myself, but I am sure many do and have no issues with "shifting fast". I don't even know how to quantify that statement. What is the threshold for the transmission? How fast is too fast? Where is this documented? How can they prove that even with the short shifter you didn't shift any slower/faster than any other driver?
The key information here is, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is on your side not theirs. I would get GM involved.
If you want to use the MM act you WILL have to litigate.
I'm afraid that if the region GM rep has been involved then they may have already blacklisted your transmission in the GMVIS system.
Good luck. My buddy had this EXACT same issue in his '03 Cobra with T56 and an MGW shifter. Dealership claimed shifter caused the damage. They blacklisted his transmission via his VIN in the Ford OASIS system.
U.M.
10-03-2013, 07:05 AM
#53
Drifting
The Magnuson Moss act ain't worth the paper it was written on. The dealership doesn't have to do JACK SQUAT at this point!
If you want to use the MM act you WILL have to litigate.
I'm afraid that if the region GM rep has been involved then they may have already blacklisted your transmission in the GMVIS system.
Good luck. My buddy had this EXACT same issue in his '03 Cobra with T56 and an MGW shifter. Dealership claimed shifter caused the damage. They blacklisted his transmission via his VIN in the Ford OASIS system.
U.M.
If you want to use the MM act you WILL have to litigate.
I'm afraid that if the region GM rep has been involved then they may have already blacklisted your transmission in the GMVIS system.
Good luck. My buddy had this EXACT same issue in his '03 Cobra with T56 and an MGW shifter. Dealership claimed shifter caused the damage. They blacklisted his transmission via his VIN in the Ford OASIS system.
U.M.
You are getting bad advice here about this. Nobody has ever shown a case on this forum where anyone was successful using this approach.This was designed years ago and referred to having to use factory air cleaners,spark plugs,points etc to MAINTAIN your vehicle.
Nowhere in this act allows performance mods to you vehicle.
You CAN NOT mod your vehicle and expect the warranty to still be in effect. It has been beaten to death on this forum,yet it still comes up and people yell MM Act.
10-03-2013, 07:18 AM
#54
Race Director
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Phila Suburbs 2023 C8 & 2013 650ix
Posts: 10,442
Received 2,240 Likes
on
1,149 Posts
Again, your only hope is to kick this up the food chain at GM and hope that saner heads will come to the conclusion that in your case the aftermarket shifter can not cause the problems that your transmission is experiencing because it doesn't have the "external" stops that the sited bulletin mentions. Stay with it.
10-03-2013, 08:30 AM
#55
Le Mans Master
Again, your only hope is to kick this up the food chain at GM and hope that saner heads will come to the conclusion that in your case the aftermarket shifter can not cause the problems that your transmission is experiencing because it doesn't have the "external" stops that the sited bulletin mentions. Stay with it.
I'd definitely do the same thing. Stay with it OP.
There is no question that the bulletin posted in post #43, although exclusive of the MGW shifter w/o stop screws, still muddies up the water enough to create controversy. That's what I meant in my prior post when I said, "this changes everything".
Continue to pursue this as high up the G.M. ladder as possible.
10-07-2013, 03:21 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Oct 2009
Location: NJ: the garbage state
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
district manager apparently faxed all dealerships in the area and so when i removed my car from one dealer and brought it to the next they were already aware of the issue and would not touch the car.
dealer again stated that it was not covered under warranty because the stock shifter was modified
dealer again stated that it was not covered under warranty because the stock shifter was modified
10-07-2013, 04:55 PM
#59
Melting Slicks
Since were talking the MM act in this thread, I'm surprised we haven't seen posts about getting real badass, and contacting the BBB or a local TV station.
Last edited by DAFFYDRUNK; 10-07-2013 at 04:57 PM.
10-07-2013, 05:17 PM
#60
Drifting
OP have you contacted MGW to get their thoughts? Certainly this post won't be good for their business unless they can convince us that the short throw really isn't the cause of your issues.
Good luck with this!
Good luck with this!