attack blue air filter
03-26-2013, 07:14 PM
#21
Platinum Supporting Vendor
Now I have aero problems
Also with GM, they don't recomend any aftermarket parts. You have one hand that does not talk to the other and GM is famous for that. We sell allot of performace packages to dealers selling new Corvette. They don't come back with any issues.
03-26-2013, 07:35 PM
#22
Team Owner
Joe,
I know what the TSB says, surging can cause the traction control to turn on, but it doesn't cause the P0174 code, it cause a random misfire code of P0300. There is a reason for this. First the surging would have to be allot and if you have a scan tool (non GM) that allows you to scan the HZ of the MAF you can see when there is turbulance. What happens is the MAF is probably the most important sensor on the engine, it is what everything else is based on. Your fueling, but in this case most importantly timing. I am sure you felt this mostely when you were at a steady state or cruise which is steady state. You ecu is reading solely from the MAF when in steady state so when you are having surging your timing is jumping around. What you are feeling in the seat of your pants is the torque in the engine changing and if that timing jumps enough you will set all kinds of traction and a P0300 code. A P0174 is a lean code and it is caused by when the LTFT goes over 25% which is an average of the SFTF's and that takes a little bit of time to happen. That means the ECU is having to add 25% + of fuel to get the Stoich correct. This is caused by two things, one there is a vac leak causing it, about 90% of the time we find the air box boot has a gap between it and TB, about ok mayne 80% as of lately I seen way too many crankcase tubes that look like they are dry rotted. On occasion we have seen the issue in an aftermarket tune. We have found them in aftermarket CAI also, but they looked pretty cheap and were leaking around there sealed areas after the MAF. Nobody is trying to start any arguments with you, however if you have data that actaully supports some of the things you say than maybe I would come at you in reply's a little differently. I have tested that filter every way possible and if was bad, I would not sell it period.
I know what the TSB says, surging can cause the traction control to turn on, but it doesn't cause the P0174 code, it cause a random misfire code of P0300. There is a reason for this. First the surging would have to be allot and if you have a scan tool (non GM) that allows you to scan the HZ of the MAF you can see when there is turbulance. What happens is the MAF is probably the most important sensor on the engine, it is what everything else is based on. Your fueling, but in this case most importantly timing. I am sure you felt this mostely when you were at a steady state or cruise which is steady state. You ecu is reading solely from the MAF when in steady state so when you are having surging your timing is jumping around. What you are feeling in the seat of your pants is the torque in the engine changing and if that timing jumps enough you will set all kinds of traction and a P0300 code. A P0174 is a lean code and it is caused by when the LTFT goes over 25% which is an average of the SFTF's and that takes a little bit of time to happen. That means the ECU is having to add 25% + of fuel to get the Stoich correct. This is caused by two things, one there is a vac leak causing it, about 90% of the time we find the air box boot has a gap between it and TB, about ok mayne 80% as of lately I seen way too many crankcase tubes that look like they are dry rotted. On occasion we have seen the issue in an aftermarket tune. We have found them in aftermarket CAI also, but they looked pretty cheap and were leaking around there sealed areas after the MAF. Nobody is trying to start any arguments with you, however if you have data that actaully supports some of the things you say than maybe I would come at you in reply's a little differently. I have tested that filter every way possible and if was bad, I would not sell it period.
I'll leave it up to the readers as to what they want to believe. GM gets feedback from it's dealers about people complaining of CEL's and GM responds by issuing a TSB to the dealers to check for conditions that will cause air turbulence that will set PO171 and/or PO174 codes that will cause a CEL.
Why would GM issue a false TSB to check for conditions that were not a possible cause of a problem? Do you believe they purposely like to send the dealers' techs running down blind alleys when trying to solve problems?
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-26-2013 at 07:45 PM.
03-26-2013, 07:36 PM
#23
Team Owner
What type of aero problems. You should try my plate, it does not force air into the filter, just around the cavity of the filter. I have not had a complaint yet of any issues with it causing any surging.
Also with GM, they don't recomend any aftermarket parts. You have one hand that does not talk to the other and GM is famous for that. We sell allot of performace packages to dealers selling new Corvette. They don't come back with any issues.
Also with GM, they don't recomend any aftermarket parts. You have one hand that does not talk to the other and GM is famous for that. We sell allot of performace packages to dealers selling new Corvette. They don't come back with any issues.
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-26-2013 at 07:38 PM.
03-26-2013, 08:44 PM
#24
Platinum Supporting Vendor
I'll leave it up to the readers as to what they want to believe. GM gets feedback from it's dealers about people complaining of CEL's and GM responds by issuing a TSB to the dealers to check for conditions that will cause air turbulence that will set PO171 and/or PO174 codes that will cause a CEL.
Why would GM issue a false TSB to check for conditions that were not a possible cause of a problem? Do you believe they purposely like to send the dealers' techs running down blind alleys when trying to solve problems?
Why would GM issue a false TSB to check for conditions that were not a possible cause of a problem? Do you believe they purposely like to send the dealers' techs running down blind alleys when trying to solve problems?
We had a ZO6 that kept throwing random misfire codes at first, than it started throwing them on cyl 7. This was a customers car who took it to the dealer 3 times, all three times they said it was from all the aftermarket parts on the car. So we with the same Tech2 scanner found the miss at number 7, pulled the wire and found it corroded, weird, then I looked at the coil and the end of the coild was completely rusted out. I don't know what happened maybe during production they missed plating it, but my point is had the tech really looked he would have seen that the factory parts were at issue not any of the aftermarket. I just think that the aftermarket part issue is becoming a standared excuse for everything. You give me one car with a P0174 code or a P0175 and I will show you the airfilter has nothing to do with it.
03-26-2013, 09:25 PM
#25
Team Owner
No I didn't say that in all those exact phrases. TSB are written based on dealer tech's. That is the basis of what you are saying correct? My question is does the dealer tech really check what is happening or does he see an aftermarket filter and then claim that is the cause??
We had a ZO6 that kept throwing random misfire codes at first, than it started throwing them on cyl 7. This was a customers car who took it to the dealer 3 times, all three times they said it was from all the aftermarket parts on the car. So we with the same Tech2 scanner found the miss at number 7, pulled the wire and found it corroded, weird, then I looked at the coil and the end of the coild was completely rusted out. I don't know what happened maybe during production they missed plating it, but my point is had the tech really looked he would have seen that the factory parts were at issue not any of the aftermarket. I just think that the aftermarket part issue is becoming a standared excuse for everything. You give me one car with a P0174 code or a P0175 and I will show you the airfilter has nothing to do with it.
We had a ZO6 that kept throwing random misfire codes at first, than it started throwing them on cyl 7. This was a customers car who took it to the dealer 3 times, all three times they said it was from all the aftermarket parts on the car. So we with the same Tech2 scanner found the miss at number 7, pulled the wire and found it corroded, weird, then I looked at the coil and the end of the coild was completely rusted out. I don't know what happened maybe during production they missed plating it, but my point is had the tech really looked he would have seen that the factory parts were at issue not any of the aftermarket. I just think that the aftermarket part issue is becoming a standared excuse for everything. You give me one car with a P0174 code or a P0175 and I will show you the airfilter has nothing to do with it.
If a car has a bad plug wire then it should give a misfire code. What does that have to do with a PO171 or PO174 code that the TSB I posted covers?
The reason GM tells the tech not to mess with the car if he is doing warranty repair work(that GM is going to pay the dealer for) is because GM has absolutely no control over the design and/or installation of aftermarket products, thus they are not going to reimburse the dealer to screw around trying to fix a car that has aftermarket parts installed that GM knows can contribute/cause the problem. GM KNOWS that aftermarket air filters/air breathers can cause problems with the MAF.
GM designed and manufactured the car and warrants the car based on their design/manufacturing. Why should they waste their money trying to fix problems that might be caused by aftermarket components.
I gave you one example(mine) where the air filter was causing a CEL, because of air turbulence across the MAF. Air leakage behind the MAF is one cause of lean conditions, but air turbulence across the MAF can cause it to send erroneous signals to the engine's computer. Just a case of "garbage in-garbage out" signal to/from the computer. If the MAF can't get a good read on the incoming air, it can't send a good signal to the injectors(via the computer) as to how much gas is required for the proper mix. Then the O2 sensors get a bad read on the exhaust and tries to correct the problem but the computer can't, thus the computer throws a lean code.
It has nothing to do with GM trying to find a scape goat(ie: aftermarket components) to get out of their responsibility to fix a car under warranty as you imply.
Plenty of other posts over the years with others having the same problems that I had with aftermarket filters.
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-26-2013 at 09:31 PM.
03-26-2013, 10:33 PM
#26
Instructor
Member Since: Apr 2011
Location: New York NY
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"""Back to back chassis dyno runs on a Z06 showed the Attack Blue filter gained 2 HP over the stock Z06 filter and the ZR1 filter gained 4 HP over the stock Z06 filter. Same stock filter used on both the LS3 and the LS3(Z06). Since the LS7(427 ci at 7,000 RPM) needs a lot more air then a LS3(376 ci at 6,500 RPM), I doubt if a LS3 would even see 2 HP gain in horsepower.
Your Butt-O-Meter must be highly calibrated to feel that little of a horsepower increase."""
I suppose? I dont think the car was any faster or it was a wonder all of any kind of performance. I just said I felt a bit more throttle response.
Your Butt-O-Meter must be highly calibrated to feel that little of a horsepower increase."""
I suppose? I dont think the car was any faster or it was a wonder all of any kind of performance. I just said I felt a bit more throttle response.
03-26-2013, 10:53 PM
#27
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2005
Location: Big Bend Country, TX
Posts: 29,114
Received 2,186 Likes
on
1,337 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15- '16-'17-‘18-‘19-'20-'21
NCM Lifetime Member
All you want to know about your stock LS3/LS7 air cleaner by the company that manufactures them - http://www.donaldsonfilters.com/Page...ir_intake.aspx
Why would you want to switch?
Why would you want to switch?
03-26-2013, 11:50 PM
#29
Race Director
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Phila Suburbs 2023 C8 & 2013 650ix
Posts: 10,444
Received 2,241 Likes
on
1,149 Posts
Like I said in the beginning. As far as air filtration is concerned (isn't that what an air filter is there for) it's garbage. And that's where it belongs.
03-27-2013, 03:12 PM
#30
Platinum Supporting Vendor
So what data do you have to say the filtration is junk? I would love to hear it. I actually wonder what Donaldson would say since I don't remember getting a letter from them telling me to throw out my Black Wing.
Here maybe this helps.
This looks allot like something else we are seeing pictures of doesn't it.
Last edited by Zip Corvettes; 03-27-2013 at 03:16 PM.
03-27-2013, 04:46 PM
#31
Platinum Supporting Vendor
Joe,
I don't want to argue with you, that wasn't the point of any of this, just valid info. If you are ever near us, I would be more than happy to show you any of this real time on a computer, the stuff the tech's can't see.
I don't want to argue with you, that wasn't the point of any of this, just valid info. If you are ever near us, I would be more than happy to show you any of this real time on a computer, the stuff the tech's can't see.
Last edited by Zip Corvettes; 03-27-2013 at 06:22 PM.
03-27-2013, 05:01 PM
#32
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2005
Location: Big Bend Country, TX
Posts: 29,114
Received 2,186 Likes
on
1,337 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15- '16-'17-‘18-‘19-'20-'21
NCM Lifetime Member
"""Back to back chassis dyno runs on a Z06 showed the Attack Blue filter gained 2 HP over the stock Z06 filter and the ZR1 filter gained 4 HP over the stock Z06 filter. Same stock filter used on both the LS3 and the LS3(Z06). Since the LS7(427 ci at 7,000 RPM) needs a lot more air then a LS3(376 ci at 6,500 RPM), I doubt if a LS3 would even see 2 HP gain in horsepower.
Your Butt-O-Meter must be highly calibrated to feel that little of a horsepower increase."""
I suppose? I dont think the car was any faster or it was a wonder all of any kind of performance. I just said I felt a bit more throttle response.
Your Butt-O-Meter must be highly calibrated to feel that little of a horsepower increase."""
I suppose? I dont think the car was any faster or it was a wonder all of any kind of performance. I just said I felt a bit more throttle response.
Heh .......... That was said tongue in cheek. If you want a little bit more kick, use an LS7 intake along with the high flow filter.
03-27-2013, 05:16 PM
#33
Safety Car
I honestly don't understand all the hype about the benefits of aftermarket air filters in a basically stock C6 LS3.
The stock LS3 air filter is the same GM p/n as filter used on the LS6 Z06. If that filter is capable of flowing enough air to feed a 505 HP 427 CI motor, then it certainly should be capable of flowing enough air to a 436 HP 376 CI motor. Why would it be considered restrictive on a stock or even mildly modified LS3 motor? What am I missing?
The stock LS3 air filter is the same GM p/n as filter used on the LS6 Z06. If that filter is capable of flowing enough air to feed a 505 HP 427 CI motor, then it certainly should be capable of flowing enough air to a 436 HP 376 CI motor. Why would it be considered restrictive on a stock or even mildly modified LS3 motor? What am I missing?
03-27-2013, 05:25 PM
#34
Safety Car
I honestly don't understand all the hype about the benefits of aftermarket air filters in a basically stock C6 LS3.
The stock LS3 air filter is the same GM p/n as filter used on the LS6 Z06. If that filter is capable of flowing enough air to feed a 505 HP 427 CI motor, then it certainly should be capable of flowing enough air to a 436 HP 376 CI motor. Why would it be considered restrictive on a stock or even mildly modified LS3 motor? What am I missing?
The stock LS3 air filter is the same GM p/n as filter used on the LS6 Z06. If that filter is capable of flowing enough air to feed a 505 HP 427 CI motor, then it certainly should be capable of flowing enough air to a 436 HP 376 CI motor. Why would it be considered restrictive on a stock or even mildly modified LS3 motor? What am I missing?
Thanks for the common sense answer.
03-27-2013, 05:54 PM
#35
Platinum Supporting Vendor
I honestly don't understand all the hype about the benefits of aftermarket air filters in a basically stock C6 LS3.
The stock LS3 air filter is the same GM p/n as filter used on the LS6 Z06. If that filter is capable of flowing enough air to feed a 505 HP 427 CI motor, then it certainly should be capable of flowing enough air to a 436 HP 376 CI motor. Why would it be considered restrictive on a stock or even mildly modified LS3 motor? What am I missing?
The stock LS3 air filter is the same GM p/n as filter used on the LS6 Z06. If that filter is capable of flowing enough air to feed a 505 HP 427 CI motor, then it certainly should be capable of flowing enough air to a 436 HP 376 CI motor. Why would it be considered restrictive on a stock or even mildly modified LS3 motor? What am I missing?
The only point to put one of these in a stock car is because you can re-use it and get new air filter flow as often as you like vs. paying $129+ for a new OEM filter. The dyno numbers were only every shown to show that you didn't lose HP with the filter. There are those that like to make a big stink about it, but they have never been able to show any data to back up any claims whatsoever. Personally if your car is stock than don't do anything to it until about 30k, then either replace your stock filter at that point with another one or move to a filter that can be cleaned. Threads like this make it very confusing for legit buyers which is the absolute reason why some of these guys are on here. Again if they had data please show it, if the filter did not do what the manufacture says it does, it would not be in our catalog.
03-27-2013, 06:04 PM
#36
Platinum Supporting Vendor
Jim,
Back when the C5's were new and Donaldson came out with the Blackwing, there were naysayers all over it. People claimed that their car's ingested water with that filter and hydro locked. They claimed it didn't filter etc. This is what makes all of this so ironic, I have been around long enough to have seen all of that and some of these people do not ever realize that Donaldson makes oiled cotton media. Donaldson did an awesome job of proving people wrong about the water ingestion issues, they showed a new ZO6 driving through water and it was pushing water all the way up to DRL's. The ones that were making those claims did not realize what it takes to actually hydro lock an engine. Not much about the filtration you can only show the data.
Donaldson's new filter is awesome, it is probably hands down the best filter in the world for filtration, it is so good like the video showed they use in on bull dozers and the big Cat trucks. Is that what you are driving?
Refer to post 30, look at the names. You see none of these guys have mentioned it.
Back when the C5's were new and Donaldson came out with the Blackwing, there were naysayers all over it. People claimed that their car's ingested water with that filter and hydro locked. They claimed it didn't filter etc. This is what makes all of this so ironic, I have been around long enough to have seen all of that and some of these people do not ever realize that Donaldson makes oiled cotton media. Donaldson did an awesome job of proving people wrong about the water ingestion issues, they showed a new ZO6 driving through water and it was pushing water all the way up to DRL's. The ones that were making those claims did not realize what it takes to actually hydro lock an engine. Not much about the filtration you can only show the data.
Donaldson's new filter is awesome, it is probably hands down the best filter in the world for filtration, it is so good like the video showed they use in on bull dozers and the big Cat trucks. Is that what you are driving?
Refer to post 30, look at the names. You see none of these guys have mentioned it.
03-27-2013, 06:18 PM
#37
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2005
Location: Big Bend Country, TX
Posts: 29,114
Received 2,186 Likes
on
1,337 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15- '16-'17-‘18-‘19-'20-'21
NCM Lifetime Member
Your not missing anything, all of this has been going on for a long time.
The only point to put one of these in a stock car is because you can re-use it and get new air filter flow as often as you like vs. paying $129+ for a new OEM filter. The dyno numbers were only every shown to show that you didn't lose HP with the filter. There are those that like to make a big stink about it, but they have never been able to show any data to back up any claims whatsoever. Personally if your car is stock than don't do anything to it until about 30k, then either replace your stock filter at that point with another one or move to a filter that can be cleaned. Threads like this make it very confusing for legit buyers which is the absolute reason why some of these guys are on here. Again if they had data please show it, if the filter did not do what the manufacture says it does, it would not be in our catalog.
The only point to put one of these in a stock car is because you can re-use it and get new air filter flow as often as you like vs. paying $129+ for a new OEM filter. The dyno numbers were only every shown to show that you didn't lose HP with the filter. There are those that like to make a big stink about it, but they have never been able to show any data to back up any claims whatsoever. Personally if your car is stock than don't do anything to it until about 30k, then either replace your stock filter at that point with another one or move to a filter that can be cleaned. Threads like this make it very confusing for legit buyers which is the absolute reason why some of these guys are on here. Again if they had data please show it, if the filter did not do what the manufacture says it does, it would not be in our catalog.
03-27-2013, 06:20 PM
#39
Safety Car
I know a few guys back in the LS1 Fbody world who actually LOST power (granted, the difference was negligible)going to a K&N or other rechargable filter. Seeing the results with my own eyes got me back to a paper filter right quick. Plus no hassle of cleaning, then re-oiling.
Last edited by ProfessorDeath; 03-27-2013 at 06:31 PM.
03-27-2013, 06:29 PM
#40
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2005
Location: Big Bend Country, TX
Posts: 29,114
Received 2,186 Likes
on
1,337 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15- '16-'17-‘18-‘19-'20-'21
NCM Lifetime Member
No ............When one lives in the Dallas/F W area and has two of the best indy shops in the nation close at hand, extremely low mileage take offs are plentiful. Now if I didn't have that option than yes, I'd go with a reusable filter.
Now if I didn't have that option than yes, I'd go with a reusable filter.