Test drove the new Boxster
07-02-2012, 01:23 PM
#61
Melting Slicks
Interesting point about the quality/engineering of the BMW cars, and that's what a customer pays for.
But, even more interesting is your bolded statement above re you wouldn't mind owning a DCT-type trans in a Vette (and pay more for it) but wouldn't want to own it AFTER a warranty expires, most likely due to cost of parts/repair/labor.
Which means to me that if someone gets a C_ generation Vette with a DCT-type trans, and KEEPS it longer than all the warranty periods, they better have a Porsche-type wallet to repair just the trans---forget anything else because it those MAY STILL be in the Chevrolet-range of costs to repair.
If anything, I think this is Chevrolet's struggle: to keep the costs of repair down even as the hourly dealer service charges go to $125 and higher. I also think they struggle to keep the initial purchase price down, but that's another story.
Just for kicks tho, I looked up MSRP for a plain Boxster (which is a convertible) and a convertible "narrow" Corvette.
Boxster- $49,500, 236 hp (no mention of torque), 6 spd. manual trans.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-sho...orsche-boxster
Corvette- $54,600, 430 hp, 6 spd. manual trans., 424 lb. ft. torque.
(doesn't that look like an Atomic Orange GS convertible????
)
http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-sports-cars/
But, even more interesting is your bolded statement above re you wouldn't mind owning a DCT-type trans in a Vette (and pay more for it) but wouldn't want to own it AFTER a warranty expires, most likely due to cost of parts/repair/labor.
Which means to me that if someone gets a C_ generation Vette with a DCT-type trans, and KEEPS it longer than all the warranty periods, they better have a Porsche-type wallet to repair just the trans---forget anything else because it those MAY STILL be in the Chevrolet-range of costs to repair.
If anything, I think this is Chevrolet's struggle: to keep the costs of repair down even as the hourly dealer service charges go to $125 and higher. I also think they struggle to keep the initial purchase price down, but that's another story.
Just for kicks tho, I looked up MSRP for a plain Boxster (which is a convertible) and a convertible "narrow" Corvette.
Boxster- $49,500, 236 hp (no mention of torque), 6 spd. manual trans.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-sho...orsche-boxster
Corvette- $54,600, 430 hp, 6 spd. manual trans., 424 lb. ft. torque.
(doesn't that look like an Atomic Orange GS convertible????
)http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-sports-cars/
I'm really not a fan of the present auto at all, I know it functions and performs well but to be honest the paddle shift Mercedes based auto trans in my old Challenger worked much better.
One thing the present vette has going for it is its been around a while and parts are cheap and plentiful. I broke the little arm that hands me the seat belt on the M3 and I didnt think it was right to make BMW pay for it under warranty so I went to buy one - 475.00 lol. They were more than happy to fix it under warranty so I let them, everything for the high end German cars is expensive when you are used to Chevrolet parts prices though..
Last edited by kp; 07-02-2012 at 01:26 PM.
07-02-2012, 05:35 PM
#63
Team Owner
07-02-2012, 05:43 PM
#64
Melting Slicks
I know what you are saying, BMW, Audi (and Porsche I assume) do not supply parts to rebuild the DCT type transmissions, they are replaced/sold as units only. Thats why its risky buying used, even if you are able to repair/rebuild it yourself it doesnt do much good if you cant buy the parts. My guess is GM will not do a DCT type trans unless it fits other cars besides the Vette, thats where part of the cost savings come from. A Corvette exclusive DCT trans most likely wont happen unless it will also fit a Silverado down the road and help reach the new CAFE MPG standards. Unless there is something out there that will almost bolt on that just needs to be licensed, like what ford did with their latest 6 speed auto.
I'm really not a fan of the present auto at all, I know it functions and performs well but to be honest the paddle shift Mercedes based auto trans in my old Challenger worked much better.
One thing the present vette has going for it is its been around a while and parts are cheap and plentiful. I broke the little arm that hands me the seat belt on the M3 and I didnt think it was right to make BMW pay for it under warranty so I went to buy one - 475.00 lol. They were more than happy to fix it under warranty so I let them, everything for the high end German cars is expensive when you are used to Chevrolet parts prices though..
I'm really not a fan of the present auto at all, I know it functions and performs well but to be honest the paddle shift Mercedes based auto trans in my old Challenger worked much better.
One thing the present vette has going for it is its been around a while and parts are cheap and plentiful. I broke the little arm that hands me the seat belt on the M3 and I didnt think it was right to make BMW pay for it under warranty so I went to buy one - 475.00 lol. They were more than happy to fix it under warranty so I let them, everything for the high end German cars is expensive when you are used to Chevrolet parts prices though..
Excellent point. Commonality is profit. It would cost many hundreds of millions to develop a DCT trans from scratch. Then, the corporation would need to amortize that major cost over several brands and platforms. A DCT for the 2014 Corvette? Not likely, although I would love to see it.
A licensed version from another manufacturer would be more likely. But where would it come from?
But then, there is the problem of the transaxle mount. What other cars have that? I don't foresee the transaxle being dropped. The more I think about it, the less sanguine I am about a DCT in the C7. Phooey!
07-02-2012, 05:52 PM
#65
Pro
I bought a 2011 M3 a while ago, and while its a great car with the DCT trans its the same with the RPM thing. A 4 liter V8 at 8000rpm sounds pretty cool, but at low rpm its a total dog. Just keeping up with a prius from a stoplight sounds like you are trying to race.
I liked the car, build quality and dealer service was exceptional, but I didnt like driving it. I have never bought a new P car, but I have drove a few, and they scare more from a service perspective than anything, like the BMW parts are expensive and they arent easy to work on.
It would sure be nice to see a DCT/PDK type trans in the new Vette, after owning one I wont have another regular auto trans in a sports type car.
I liked the car, build quality and dealer service was exceptional, but I didnt like driving it. I have never bought a new P car, but I have drove a few, and they scare more from a service perspective than anything, like the BMW parts are expensive and they arent easy to work on.
It would sure be nice to see a DCT/PDK type trans in the new Vette, after owning one I wont have another regular auto trans in a sports type car.
07-02-2012, 06:00 PM
#67
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
I know what you are saying, BMW, Audi (and Porsche I assume) do not supply parts to rebuild the DCT type transmissions, they are replaced/sold as units only. Thats why its risky buying used, even if you are able to repair/rebuild it yourself it doesnt do much good if you cant buy the parts. My guess is GM will not do a DCT type trans unless it fits other cars besides the Vette, thats where part of the cost savings come from. A Corvette exclusive DCT trans most likely wont happen unless it will also fit a Silverado down the road and help reach the new CAFE MPG standards. Unless there is something out there that will almost bolt on that just needs to be licensed, like what ford did with their latest 6 speed auto.
I'm really not a fan of the present auto at all, I know it functions and performs well but to be honest the paddle shift Mercedes based auto trans in my old Challenger worked much better.
One thing the present vette has going for it is its been around a while and parts are cheap and plentiful. I broke the little arm that hands me the seat belt on the M3 and I didnt think it was right to make BMW pay for it under warranty so I went to buy one - 475.00 lol. They were more than happy to fix it under warranty so I let them, everything for the high end German cars is expensive when you are used to Chevrolet parts prices though..
I'm really not a fan of the present auto at all, I know it functions and performs well but to be honest the paddle shift Mercedes based auto trans in my old Challenger worked much better.
One thing the present vette has going for it is its been around a while and parts are cheap and plentiful. I broke the little arm that hands me the seat belt on the M3 and I didnt think it was right to make BMW pay for it under warranty so I went to buy one - 475.00 lol. They were more than happy to fix it under warranty so I let them, everything for the high end German cars is expensive when you are used to Chevrolet parts prices though..
Granted, everything is now "sourced" and "world-market-ized" but hopefully they won't make that mistake again.
07-02-2012, 06:07 PM
#68
Melting Slicks
Very good point, as underlined above. The last time GM did/sourced a manual trans, it was a very strong, German, ZF 6-speed unit for the C4s. Very good unit....BUT, when it broke or chipped a tooth or needed a synchronizer, for years it was difficult to find parts. There was at least one expert source/rebuilder in the southwest as I recall (named ZFDoc).
Granted, everything is now "sourced" and "world-market-ized" but hopefully they won't make that mistake again.
Granted, everything is now "sourced" and "world-market-ized" but hopefully they won't make that mistake again.
Ah well, North America, it's a big place.
07-02-2012, 06:17 PM
#69
Melting Slicks
Excellent point. Commonality is profit. It would cost many hundreds of millions to develop a DCT trans from scratch. Then, the corporation would need to amortize that major cost over several brands and platforms. A DCT for the 2014 Corvette? Not likely, although I would love to see it.
A licensed version from another manufacturer would be more likely. But where would it come from?
But then, there is the problem of the transaxle mount. What other cars have that? I don't foresee the transaxle being dropped. The more I think about it, the less sanguine I am about a DCT in the C7. Phooey!
Like the 'new' Ford 6 speed auto which is a licensed copy of the ZF 6HP26 that appears in everything from a 7 series BMW since 2000 or so to a Hyundai I'm sure GM could adapt an existing RWD DCT design if they really wanted to - if there is one available that will take the power and fit the chassis.
Never hurts to speculate
07-02-2012, 07:45 PM
#71
Race Director
07-02-2012, 08:06 PM
#73
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Gosh, ok I was just waiting for dinner and looked through the thread, I was by a Porsche/Audi dealer the other day looking for a sedan my elder parents could fit into...... (the Audi A8L might be in the short list) but anyway........
Just now I go into the website to build my own Boxster S with equivalent options and options that take advantage of Porsche options unavailable to the Corvette and my MSRP was $88,235 (no I did NOT select the body color Key Fob at $335).....Do the Porsche dealers sell these cars with a decent discount? I mean can we get $10K off or something?
I was kind of bummed when I clicked to listen to the "Sports Exhaust System" for $2,825 because it has a sound clip I would be embarrased to post on this site...... anyway I had to select this option because I wanted to compare with an all-out C6 with NPP etc.
Ok, time for dinner....
Just now I go into the website to build my own Boxster S with equivalent options and options that take advantage of Porsche options unavailable to the Corvette and my MSRP was $88,235 (no I did NOT select the body color Key Fob at $335).....Do the Porsche dealers sell these cars with a decent discount? I mean can we get $10K off or something?
I was kind of bummed when I clicked to listen to the "Sports Exhaust System" for $2,825 because it has a sound clip I would be embarrased to post on this site...... anyway I had to select this option because I wanted to compare with an all-out C6 with NPP etc.
Ok, time for dinner....
07-02-2012, 08:08 PM
#74
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07-02-2012, 08:13 PM
#75
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If my wife was looking for something in the "cute little ragtop" category, I'd probably coax her toward a Mini or a Miata rather than a Boxster. Fulfill the cute thing for her, for far less coin from me.
07-02-2012, 08:23 PM
#76
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
And we know those are easy to ship things over/through/to/from. The ZF trans, on the other hand, is from Deutschland. And for whatever reason, GM seemed to decide parts were not part of the equation--all or nothing.
07-02-2012, 08:55 PM
#77
Race Director
The rest are definitely not attention getters. You have to be a Porsche enthusiast to say the Cayenne, Panamera, Cayman and Boxster look fantastic or is the exact way you want a car to look. Even then 1/2 of them wouldn't recognize a Boxster/Cayman as a Porsche (by ignoring them not by knowing they are from Porsche). An example of how creative Porsche engineers are is look at how the 911 developed over all these years. Now tell me an Aston Martin or Jaguar doesn't look great for example. You will not find too many people (besides probably Porsche owners).
911 is the only Porsche I would buy but to get one the way I want it would be like buying a ZR1.
07-02-2012, 09:06 PM
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So if an engineering group designs a great/innovative sports car, and their company produces only 1500 units of this car, the abilities of the engineers are judged differently than if the company produces 15,000 units of the exact design? Please explain how the innovative design is different based on production numbers.
Tell that to the thousands who have bought those cars.
911 development isn't controlled by the engineers, it's controlled by management.
Tell that to the thousands who have bought those cars.
911 development isn't controlled by the engineers, it's controlled by management.
07-02-2012, 09:28 PM
#79
Race Director
So if an engineering group designs a great/innovative sports car, and their company produces only 1500 units of this car, the abilities of the engineers are judged differently than if the company produces 15,000 units of the exact design? Please explain how the innovative design is different based on production numbers.
Tell that to the thousands who have bought those cars.
911 development isn't controlled by the engineers, it's controlled by management.
Tell that to the thousands who have bought those cars.
911 development isn't controlled by the engineers, it's controlled by management.
Porsche is low volume to begin with. As you mentioned, just thousands a year with the US being their biggest market. Tell me what looks better, a nice Ferrari or Lamborghini or a Porsche. Some of those cost the same as say a GT and IMO look a lot nicer than the GT. 
At least they don't design say an SUV or 4 door wannabe just for the heck of it.
07-02-2012, 09:36 PM
#80
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Not an 911 fan by any means, but the Carrera S has more than 400 HP, so that salesman didn't know crap 
. The turbo has 500+, and kicks even the ZR1's a$$ and not by a little; just search for its stats (mid 2s to 60, etc). I MUCH prefer the balance of my lowly GS and how it drives than a turbo 911 all day long, but it's a freaking rocket.
As it was mentioned, the Boxster is much cheaper than an S. And the killer is the options. I wouldn't want anything smaller than a Vette (in cabin size AND luggage space). I haven't driven or sat on a 911 lately, but last time I rode on a 997 turbo a few months back, I remember the cabin space being similar to the Vette, no? Although I like the Vette much better, even though it definitely looks cheaper made. It's more functional, feels nicer, and drives nicer, and at the end, that's what matters the most. I also used to own a fully optioned M3 V8, and enjoy MUCH more driving the GS. I liked how that engine sounded better (not by much though), but that's about it. And just like somebody mentioned, the most unbelievable difference is the Vette is slightly QUIETER than the M3, even with its giant (unnecessary IMO) tires. That was a pleasant surprise, so no need to dismantle my interior to make it quieter.
. The turbo has 500+, and kicks even the ZR1's a$$ and not by a little; just search for its stats (mid 2s to 60, etc). I MUCH prefer the balance of my lowly GS and how it drives than a turbo 911 all day long, but it's a freaking rocket.As it was mentioned, the Boxster is much cheaper than an S. And the killer is the options. I wouldn't want anything smaller than a Vette (in cabin size AND luggage space). I haven't driven or sat on a 911 lately, but last time I rode on a 997 turbo a few months back, I remember the cabin space being similar to the Vette, no? Although I like the Vette much better, even though it definitely looks cheaper made. It's more functional, feels nicer, and drives nicer, and at the end, that's what matters the most. I also used to own a fully optioned M3 V8, and enjoy MUCH more driving the GS. I liked how that engine sounded better (not by much though), but that's about it. And just like somebody mentioned, the most unbelievable difference is the Vette is slightly QUIETER than the M3, even with its giant (unnecessary IMO) tires. That was a pleasant surprise, so no need to dismantle my interior to make it quieter.
ELP JC What the hell are you talkin bout!! 0-60 in mid 2's!!! Better do you homework there!! Porches stated 0--60 911 TURBO IS 3.5. Slower than a ZR. Only car built that a normal person can buy sub 3.0 is a Bugatti.