JCtx

Was reading the Centennial Edition advertisement on Automobile magazine, and was surprised to read that in addition to the LS7 and LS9, that also the LS3 on MN6 GSs is 'hand built'. And yes, I know the MN6 GS has a dry-sump, compared to the regular LS3.

What's the difference between a regular LS3 and a 'hand-built' LS3 (other than the afforementioned dry-sump)? All engines are 'hand built' to a point, since robots can't insert pistons, and crap like that. Is the difference just matching pistons with cylinders, like the way GM built engines before the days of piston slap? Can't think of what else can be different than building a regular LS3. Just curious. Hope somebody has the knowledge to answer my question. Many thanks folks.

SilverScorp

It's the difference between buying a suit off the rack and having one tailored.

ravill

It also means that the GS M6 LS3 gets a forged steel crank. The non-hand built, I believe, get a paper mache crank.

haljensen

Hand built is a misnomer. All LS3's are "hand built". The difference is that the base LS3 is assembled on an assembly line by a number of people, the dry sump engines are assembled by one person. There is no special parts balancing or parts selection on the "hand built" engines.

JCtx

Oh boy, thought I could get serious answers here .

I'm assuming the main difference is those engines get built by one guy (reflected by the signed plaques on LS7 and LS9s), rather than by several guys on an assembly line. Yes, the single guy method is better, but both have the same amount of 'hand building'. There has to be a difference to call it 'hand built' IMO, like matching pistons to cylinders. I'm curious WHAT IS DONE DIFFERENTLY.

Or if somebody knows where to get this information, I'd certainly appreciate it. Happy 4th.

JCtx

THANK YOU for your contribution . That was exactly what I was thinking, and mentioned while you were posting. But thought at least pistons were matched to claim 'hand built'. Oh well. Thanks a million for your clarification; greatly appreciated. By the way, do 'hand built' LS3s have a plaque too?

3GenVettes

The LS3 dry sump engines are built at the Wixom performance build center. There are threads in both this section and the Z06 section on the engine builders. There is a link in that thread to an article on the builds. You did get a serious answer above that the principal difference is that a single person builds the engine rather than a series of persons on an assembly line.

I'd would be pleased to be further educated if there are others who do know more about this than I do. My knowledge is limited to what I've stated.

I'm glad to have one of those engines in my new GS. Also, I see that while I was typing there was also a further post.

JJKJ

Yes they do. Check out the "Who Built Your LS3" thread.

OregonC6

If you really want to know the difference sign up at your local university business school for "Introduction to Marketing". Generally this is an undergraduate survey course. You'll have at least 70% of the answer at the end of the course.

The remaining 30% of the answer can be found in two additional courses: 1/ Introduction to Advertising ( undergrad survey course ) and 2/ Marketing Research ( generally an upper level undergrad course with prerequisite of ONE YEAR in statistics ). Also offered as a graduate course but with far more mathematics.

There is solid research supporting that single assemblers are more likely to commit errors in assembly than if there are multiple assemblers on a "line". This is because of what is called "buddy inspection" in which the next person on the line VERIFIES the work of the prior human or robotic step.

Thus, in quality assurance parlance, mistakes or defects have more opportunity to be "caught" the more eyes are on the process. Having one assembler implies that something different is done vs an engine built on a "line" by multiple assemblers. This has never been claimed as the above post points out. It's never been said that parts are matched, weighed, or in any way selected in any other manner than the "ordinary" assembly line process.

That the forged crank is "better" is undeniable but that is not what's being sold as the "value added" of "hand building". That a forged crank is good for bragging rights is possible. That it may be better if the engine is modded is possible. However, judging by the almost nonexistence of reports of failure of the "ordinary" LS3 crank it's doubtful that the forged crank adds anything to reliability or performance of the "hand built" cars.

In summary refer to my academic course recommendations. No matter what your profession or business virtually anyone in today's world of sophisticated advertising and marketing research would profit much from taking these course or reading the textbooks.

I wouldn't personally consider a "hand built" engine worth any more or less than one produced in the "usual" manner. I would pay nothing extra for this. However! If they offered a true balanced and blueprinted engine I'd be in line and pay considerably more for it.

IF the hand assemblers, for example, weighed the pistons and connecting rods and carefully adjusted their weight to match...priceless. If they carefully inspected each incoming part to tighter tolerances than those that prevail on the "ordinary assembly line"....priceless. If the entire reciprocating assembly was balanced....priceless.

All this and more could be added to the hand building process. To me it would be worth several thousand more but probably cost a fracton of that incrementally. My hunch is that the cost of producing a hand built engine and assembly line engine is very very close. ( apart from the crank which may be a more expensive part-I'm saying the labor cost is probably very close )

Have you noticed that while the factory has provided a video of the hand assembly process they have never provided one of the "assembly line" process? My hunch on this one is that the assembly and confirmation fixtures used are identical and this would lessen the PERCEIVED value of the hand building.

But, you'll find people here who swear their hand built engines are better. You'll learn why they feel this way in Marketing 101. It's called "purchase confirmation". Everyone wants, for reasons of self respect, to feel like they spent their money wisely. Thus, once they buy something, they will extol it's virtues if for no other reason than to substantiate that they were very wise to make the purchase.

speedlink

Thanks for your explanation. By the way, I agree for what it's worth. Probably not much. The only thing I would not agree on is I thought last year I saw a you tube piece showing an engine builder going through the process at Wixom.

ravill

As nonrepudiated in my very knowledgable post above, and to re-iterate in layman vernacular: The "non" handbuilt engines have a paper mache crank.

kornyboy

The dry sump system that the OP mentioned in the first post may actually be the answer. The Assembly line may just not be set up to handle engines with this system so GM opted to "hand build" these engines instead of retooling to save that cost. The volume of engines with dry sump systems is still low in comparison to the total number of cars built. This was especially true when there was only one car with a dry sump back in 2005 for the 2006 year modle Z06.

Shysterman69

Also consider the turn in the economy, when they started the single person hand build it was for the Z06 engine, downturn in the economy had to mean less work for these builders, now bring the GS in the loop, it sparked sales in Corvette, I was told when I picked mine up at the NCM last month that the GS now makes up over 50% of corvette sales, so you figure out of all the GS sold, how many are the M6 coupe, why not use the same process as you use for the Z06 and ZR1 engines with dry sump? Makes perfect sense to me...

SilverScorp

All of the information you need is already in many threads on the forum and the Chevy website. It has been said here yet again that the difference in the handbuilt and the assembly line built LS3 is the forged crank and the dry sump oil system.

kornyboy

AFVETTE

The $5 tag. Do they make more HP/TQ than any other LS3?

Tom

VatorMan

No. But I don't have to worry about long left hand sweepers like non Dry Sump engines.

LTC Z06

Your usually negative post. You need to educate yourself, having a forged crank vs. a cast is not about failures of cast.

JJKJ

Thank you for your dissertation on automotive marketing and assembly-line manufacturing. Henry Ford would be proud. I feel much more educated now. However, I feel really stupid for buying a manual-equipped GS coupe because it has a hand-built, oops sorry, single-person-built LS3. Oh wait, I didn't buy it because of that. But I do feel really stupid for paying more for my single-person-built LS3 than I would've any other GS LS3. Oh, wait I didn't. In fact, I paid less for my LS3 than any other GS configuration available, so I guess I got a discount. Good thing since according to yor post, a single-person-built LS3 has inferior quality build compared to an assembly-line LS3.

Seriously, the GS coupe gets the Wixom-built LS3 because it shares similiar components with the other dry-sump LS7 and LS9 engines. It makes perfect sense for GM to combine engine assembly for similiar engines into one facility. Now, does that also provide an opportunity for GM to add that to their marketing plan? Absolutely, and a very smart move. However, GM doesn't try to sell manual-equipped GS's based on that marketing point; in fact, I doubt a majority of the Corvette sales force and a good portion of GS buyers don't know the manual-equipped GS coupe LS3 is any different than other LS3's. Your rant makes it sound as though GM is marketing manual-equipped GS's on the fact they have a Wixom-built LS3 and we, the non-educated (but we are after your post) public, are foolishly buying the cars based on GM's great marketing plan. Wake up, buyers are buying manual-equipped GS coupes because they like the overall package; the Wixom-built LS3 is an added nicety or nice conversation piece.

The other premise of your rant is that the Wixom-built LS3 is not worth any more or less than a standard LS3. Should be worth less due to your logic because of the greater chance of mistakes vs the assembly-line produced LS3. In fact, if you look at it, the Wixom-built LS3 is actually sold at a discount when compared to any other LS3 in a GS. The manual-equipped GS coupe is the cheapest GS you can buy. The automatic and convertible GS's are all more expensive and do not have the Wixom-built LS3 or the dry-sump components. If you buy a manual-equipped GS coupe you not only get a Wixom-built engine but you also get the dry-sump system and you pay less than any other GS. Sounds like a hell of deal to me, but that's just my uneducated foolish brain falling prey to GM's brilliant marketing scheme. Point is, unlike what you assert in your post, no one, including me, paid more for their manual GS coupe because it has a Wixom-built engine.

Yes you can buy a cheaper LS3 in a base coupe, but I'm not here to discuss the value of the GS vs base coupes. I bought a GS because of the complete package and had nothing to do with where or how the engine was built. Oh, you really need to educate yourself on the build process at the Wixom plant and the quality checks that occur during the build process. As your post proves, we all need a little educat'n now and then.

John

Corvettinator

I guess it all comes down to how many UAW hands you want fondling your crank.