eninge destroyed after oil change by dealer
02-26-2011, 02:21 PM
#381
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11
Rest assured the ZR1, C6Z AND the dry-sump GrandSport ALL use the same tamper-resistant cap....they ALL use the same dry-sump system...
A dry-sump oiling system means just that....a dry sump (oil pan).....The oil for the engine (about 8-10 quarts) is held in the dry-sump tank on the fender, NOT in the oil pan..... ANYONE who owns a Corvette with a dry-sump system NEEDS to know the importance of this information....I have a feeling a lot of folks who own a dry-sump equipped Corvette dont understand how a dry-sump system works....many probably dont even know how to properly check the oil (there is a special procedure to check the oil in a dry-sump system)
The oil pan on a convention LS3 engine holds about 6 quarts...Believe it or not, the dry sump oil pan only holds about a quart of oil, if even that...the rest is contained in the dry-sump tank in the fender...So you can see why adding 10 quarts (typical LS3 dry-sump capacity) would seriously overfill the engine if the oil was added to the engine via the valve cover instead of the seperate fender-mounted dry-sump tank, which DOES hold that amount of oil.....This is what causes hyrdolock....The engine is completely full of oil....when the crank & pistons start to move when the engine is started all of that oil acts as a girdle that tries to hold everything in place....The force of the engine turning fights it until something gives...and something always gives in these cases....usually it's a bent rod or piston which often knocks a hole in the oil pan or block...which was EXACTLY what happened to the OPs car..
More LS3 dry-sump info here...WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...stem-explained
.
A dry-sump oiling system means just that....a dry sump (oil pan).....The oil for the engine (about 8-10 quarts) is held in the dry-sump tank on the fender, NOT in the oil pan..... ANYONE who owns a Corvette with a dry-sump system NEEDS to know the importance of this information....I have a feeling a lot of folks who own a dry-sump equipped Corvette dont understand how a dry-sump system works....many probably dont even know how to properly check the oil (there is a special procedure to check the oil in a dry-sump system)
The oil pan on a convention LS3 engine holds about 6 quarts...Believe it or not, the dry sump oil pan only holds about a quart of oil, if even that...the rest is contained in the dry-sump tank in the fender...So you can see why adding 10 quarts (typical LS3 dry-sump capacity) would seriously overfill the engine if the oil was added to the engine via the valve cover instead of the seperate fender-mounted dry-sump tank, which DOES hold that amount of oil.....This is what causes hyrdolock....The engine is completely full of oil....when the crank & pistons start to move when the engine is started all of that oil acts as a girdle that tries to hold everything in place....The force of the engine turning fights it until something gives...and something always gives in these cases....usually it's a bent rod or piston which often knocks a hole in the oil pan or block...which was EXACTLY what happened to the OPs car..
More LS3 dry-sump info here...WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...stem-explained
.
Great info...and explains how (to my earlier question), even at low rpm / crank momentum, a hydrolock scenario could/would still punch a hole in the block.
02-26-2011, 02:25 PM
#382
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyguy
IF you read nothing else, read this! It is NOT up to you to speculate what may or may not have happened. The ONLY position you take is "While the car was in their care, custody, and control the dealer informed you in a timely manner that the engine somehow became destroyed." You don't know how or why; you can't speculate cause you were not there; you can not guess or surmize anything. The dealer has a legal obligation to return the car to you in the same or as close to the same condition prior to your bringing it to them.
This is called "Bailment" and regardless of cause the dealer carries coverge under either Garagekeepers and perhaps a product liability, ultimately involving GM. In either case, you can't take a stance until they come to you with a plan for a fix/replacement. If you do NOT like it, tell them DO NOT proceed until they hear back from you. Then you may state in writing what you expect that is reasonable -(don't make demans or threats). The dealer has NO choice but to involve GM on a claim of this size. It may be a protracted deal, and if they still don't come back IN WRITING with their plan calmly let them know you need to seek the advice of an expert on things like this.
Hopefully, you'll get a good, fair, and responsible offer from the dealer/GM on a new engine install. That's really about all you can hopefully get out of them on it.
Good luck - but again, you play dumb and make NO comment about what may have happened. All you know as FACT, is the car was in for routine service and the next thing was a call from them that things didn't go well while they had it in their garage- PERIOD!
________________________________________ ____________
I like this suggestion as well!
Originally Posted by diyguy
IF you read nothing else, read this! It is NOT up to you to speculate what may or may not have happened. The ONLY position you take is "While the car was in their care, custody, and control the dealer informed you in a timely manner that the engine somehow became destroyed." You don't know how or why; you can't speculate cause you were not there; you can not guess or surmize anything. The dealer has a legal obligation to return the car to you in the same or as close to the same condition prior to your bringing it to them.
This is called "Bailment" and regardless of cause the dealer carries coverge under either Garagekeepers and perhaps a product liability, ultimately involving GM. In either case, you can't take a stance until they come to you with a plan for a fix/replacement. If you do NOT like it, tell them DO NOT proceed until they hear back from you. Then you may state in writing what you expect that is reasonable -(don't make demans or threats). The dealer has NO choice but to involve GM on a claim of this size. It may be a protracted deal, and if they still don't come back IN WRITING with their plan calmly let them know you need to seek the advice of an expert on things like this.
Hopefully, you'll get a good, fair, and responsible offer from the dealer/GM on a new engine install. That's really about all you can hopefully get out of them on it.
Good luck - but again, you play dumb and make NO comment about what may have happened. All you know as FACT, is the car was in for routine service and the next thing was a call from them that things didn't go well while they had it in their garage- PERIOD!
________________________________________ ____________
I like this suggestion as well!
02-26-2011, 03:31 PM
#383
Le Mans Master
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Rest assured the ZR1, C6Z AND the dry-sump GrandSport ALL use the same tamper-resistant cap....they ALL use the same dry-sump system...
A dry-sump oiling system means just that....a dry sump (oil pan).....The oil for the engine (about 8-10 quarts) is held in the dry-sump tank on the fender, NOT in the oil pan..... ANYONE who owns a Corvette with a dry-sump system NEEDS to know the importance of this information....I have a feeling a lot of folks who own a dry-sump equipped Corvette dont understand how a dry-sump system works....many probably dont even know how to properly check the oil (there is a special procedure to check the oil in a dry-sump system)
The oil pan on a convention LS3 engine holds about 6 quarts...Believe it or not, the dry sump oil pan only holds about a quart of oil, if even that...the rest is contained in the dry-sump tank in the fender...So you can see why adding 10 quarts (typical LS3 dry-sump capacity) would seriously overfill the engine if the oil was added to the engine via the valve cover instead of the seperate fender-mounted dry-sump tank, which DOES hold that amount of oil.....This is what causes hyrdolock....The engine is completely full of oil....when the crank & pistons start to move when the engine is started all of that oil acts as a girdle that tries to hold everything in place....The force of the engine turning fights it until something gives...and something always gives in these cases....usually it's a bent rod or piston which often knocks a hole in the oil pan or block...which was EXACTLY what happened to the OPs car..
More LS3 dry-sump info here...WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...stem-explained
.
A dry-sump oiling system means just that....a dry sump (oil pan).....The oil for the engine (about 8-10 quarts) is held in the dry-sump tank on the fender, NOT in the oil pan..... ANYONE who owns a Corvette with a dry-sump system NEEDS to know the importance of this information....I have a feeling a lot of folks who own a dry-sump equipped Corvette dont understand how a dry-sump system works....many probably dont even know how to properly check the oil (there is a special procedure to check the oil in a dry-sump system)
The oil pan on a convention LS3 engine holds about 6 quarts...Believe it or not, the dry sump oil pan only holds about a quart of oil, if even that...the rest is contained in the dry-sump tank in the fender...So you can see why adding 10 quarts (typical LS3 dry-sump capacity) would seriously overfill the engine if the oil was added to the engine via the valve cover instead of the seperate fender-mounted dry-sump tank, which DOES hold that amount of oil.....This is what causes hyrdolock....The engine is completely full of oil....when the crank & pistons start to move when the engine is started all of that oil acts as a girdle that tries to hold everything in place....The force of the engine turning fights it until something gives...and something always gives in these cases....usually it's a bent rod or piston which often knocks a hole in the oil pan or block...which was EXACTLY what happened to the OPs car..
More LS3 dry-sump info here...WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...stem-explained
.
If the tech did not take note of it being a dry sump system and treated it exactly as a regular system he would have made several mistakes that would have ended in this result.
The first would have been only removing the pan oil plug as he would in a regular system. If he walked away or just failed to pay attention he would not notice that only about 1/2 qt. of oil drained. He would change the filter and replace the plug assuming the engine was empty, while not even being aware that there is a tank sitting with about 11 qts. in it.
He would then pry the cap off of the valve cover and add 6 qts to the engine, again assuming it was a standard setup.
The engine would start and run, but the sump would begin draining the oil from the block. It would fill, then over fill the tank that still had all of its old oil. Once overfilled, the excess oil would pump out the vent into the intake.
The engine would be running at speed when non compressible oil was pumped into the intake and filled cylinders on the intake stroke. On the compression stroke, something will give.
02-26-2011, 04:07 PM
#384
Instructor
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There is likely a little more to it.
If the tech did not take note of it being a dry sump system and treated it exactly as a regular system he would have made several mistakes that would have ended in this result.
The first would have been only removing the pan oil plug as he would in a regular system. If he walked away or just failed to pay attention he would not notice that only about 1/2 qt. of oil drained. He would change the filter and replace the plug assuming the engine was empty, while not even being aware that there is a tank sitting with about 11 qts. in it.
He would then pry the cap off of the valve cover and add 6 qts to the engine, again assuming it was a standard setup.
The engine would start and run, but the sump would begin draining the oil from the block. It would fill, then over fill the tank that still had all of its old oil. Once overfilled, the excess oil would pump out the vent into the intake.
The engine would be running at speed when non compressible oil was pumped into the intake and filled cylinders on the intake stroke. On the compression stroke, something will give.
If the tech did not take note of it being a dry sump system and treated it exactly as a regular system he would have made several mistakes that would have ended in this result.
The first would have been only removing the pan oil plug as he would in a regular system. If he walked away or just failed to pay attention he would not notice that only about 1/2 qt. of oil drained. He would change the filter and replace the plug assuming the engine was empty, while not even being aware that there is a tank sitting with about 11 qts. in it.
He would then pry the cap off of the valve cover and add 6 qts to the engine, again assuming it was a standard setup.
The engine would start and run, but the sump would begin draining the oil from the block. It would fill, then over fill the tank that still had all of its old oil. Once overfilled, the excess oil would pump out the vent into the intake.
The engine would be running at speed when non compressible oil was pumped into the intake and filled cylinders on the intake stroke. On the compression stroke, something will give.
I bet that is what happened. When you bring your Corvette in for an oil change, GM treats your car like a Cobalt and gives it over to the oil change/tire busting monkey. They have NO CLUE that it is a dry sump and the above is probably what happened.
02-26-2011, 04:10 PM
#385
Le Mans Master
As long as human beings are working on and building cars, there will be mistakes. Even preventable mistakes.
It's how it's handled after that which makes the difference.
If I were the type that allowed anyone else to change the oil but me, I would have a conversation with that person before hand and make sure he understood how it was done.
It's how it's handled after that which makes the difference.
If I were the type that allowed anyone else to change the oil but me, I would have a conversation with that person before hand and make sure he understood how it was done.
02-26-2011, 05:07 PM
#386
Drifting
Rest assured the ZR1, C6Z AND the dry-sump GrandSport ALL use the same tamper-resistant cap....they ALL use the same dry-sump system...
A dry-sump oiling system means just that....a dry sump (oil pan).....The oil for the engine (about 8-10 quarts) is held in the dry-sump tank on the fender, NOT in the oil pan..... ANYONE who owns a Corvette with a dry-sump system NEEDS to know the importance of this information....I have a feeling a lot of folks who own a dry-sump equipped Corvette dont understand how a dry-sump system works....many probably dont even know how to properly check the oil (there is a special procedure to check the oil in a dry-sump system)
The oil pan on a convention LS3 engine holds about 6 quarts...Believe it or not, the dry sump oil pan only holds about a quart of oil, if even that...the rest is contained in the dry-sump tank in the fender...So you can see why adding 10 quarts (typical LS3 dry-sump capacity) would seriously overfill the engine if the oil was added to the engine via the valve cover instead of the seperate fender-mounted dry-sump tank, which DOES hold that amount of oil.....This is what causes hyrdolock....The engine is completely full of oil....when the crank & pistons start to move when the engine is started all of that oil acts as a girdle that tries to hold everything in place....The force of the engine turning fights it until something gives...and something always gives in these cases....usually it's a bent rod or piston which often knocks a hole in the oil pan or block...which was EXACTLY what happened to the OPs car..
More LS3 dry-sump info here...WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...stem-explained
.
A dry-sump oiling system means just that....a dry sump (oil pan).....The oil for the engine (about 8-10 quarts) is held in the dry-sump tank on the fender, NOT in the oil pan..... ANYONE who owns a Corvette with a dry-sump system NEEDS to know the importance of this information....I have a feeling a lot of folks who own a dry-sump equipped Corvette dont understand how a dry-sump system works....many probably dont even know how to properly check the oil (there is a special procedure to check the oil in a dry-sump system)
The oil pan on a convention LS3 engine holds about 6 quarts...Believe it or not, the dry sump oil pan only holds about a quart of oil, if even that...the rest is contained in the dry-sump tank in the fender...So you can see why adding 10 quarts (typical LS3 dry-sump capacity) would seriously overfill the engine if the oil was added to the engine via the valve cover instead of the seperate fender-mounted dry-sump tank, which DOES hold that amount of oil.....This is what causes hyrdolock....The engine is completely full of oil....when the crank & pistons start to move when the engine is started all of that oil acts as a girdle that tries to hold everything in place....The force of the engine turning fights it until something gives...and something always gives in these cases....usually it's a bent rod or piston which often knocks a hole in the oil pan or block...which was EXACTLY what happened to the OPs car..
More LS3 dry-sump info here...WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...stem-explained
.
02-26-2011, 05:09 PM
#387
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St. Jude Donor '11,'13
"I voluntarily took 60 days off from OT"
There is likely a little more to it.
If the tech did not take note of it being a dry sump system and treated it exactly as a regular system he would have made several mistakes that would have ended in this result.
The first would have been only removing the pan oil plug as he would in a regular system. If he walked away or just failed to pay attention he would not notice that only about 1/2 qt. of oil drained. He would change the filter and replace the plug assuming the engine was empty, while not even being aware that there is a tank sitting with about 11 qts. in it.
He would then pry the cap off of the valve cover and add 6 qts to the engine, again assuming it was a standard setup.
The engine would start and run, but the sump would begin draining the oil from the block. It would fill, then over fill the tank that still had all of its old oil. Once overfilled, the excess oil would pump out the vent into the intake.
The engine would be running at speed when non compressible oil was pumped into the intake and filled cylinders on the intake stroke. On the compression stroke, something will give.
If the tech did not take note of it being a dry sump system and treated it exactly as a regular system he would have made several mistakes that would have ended in this result.
The first would have been only removing the pan oil plug as he would in a regular system. If he walked away or just failed to pay attention he would not notice that only about 1/2 qt. of oil drained. He would change the filter and replace the plug assuming the engine was empty, while not even being aware that there is a tank sitting with about 11 qts. in it.
He would then pry the cap off of the valve cover and add 6 qts to the engine, again assuming it was a standard setup.
The engine would start and run, but the sump would begin draining the oil from the block. It would fill, then over fill the tank that still had all of its old oil. Once overfilled, the excess oil would pump out the vent into the intake.
The engine would be running at speed when non compressible oil was pumped into the intake and filled cylinders on the intake stroke. On the compression stroke, something will give.
02-26-2011, 09:14 PM
#388
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St. Jude Donor '11,'13
"I voluntarily took 60 days off from OT"
Those two pics tell the story.....You said you were able to twist the cap right off...That means they removed it (by force), added the oil, then twisted it back on...but not far enough for the metal tabs in the valve cover to engage the square recesses in the cap....
This is how a regular oil cap looks...Notice there arent any square recesses for the two metal tabs in the valve cover to engage??...That's because this isnt a locking cap...When those two valve cover tabs engage those square recesses it takes substantial force to remove the cap....It's certainly not impossible to remove the cap, but much more difficult than a regular oil cap....
Last edited by The NNIAL8R; 02-26-2011 at 09:18 PM.
02-26-2011, 09:43 PM
#389
Le Mans Master
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Yes or no.....Yes, there are TWO drain plugs on the oil pan for the dry-sump system....One drains the residual oil in the pan (about a quart), the other drains the fender-mounted tank (8-10 quarts)....HOWEVER...hyrdolock WILL result even if both plugs are removed (the proper way) but filled with 10 quarts via the valve cover port....It's simply more oil than the engine can handle in the pan....
Either way op has a hole in his block.
02-26-2011, 10:17 PM
#390
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St. Jude Donor '11,'13
"I voluntarily took 60 days off from OT"
True, but if the tech knew to to add 10 qts then he would have to have recognized it was a dry sump set up and should not have been messing with the valve fill. The fact that he forced out the plug in the valve cover is an indication that he does not know about dry sump systems. Likely a low wage grease monkey hired to do oil and brake changes. The fact that so much damage was done indicates that the engine was running up at full speed. The op also said that they were pulling it forward. This would also indicate that it started and ran fine for a little while. This would be consistent with my theory of how long it would take for the sump to pump out and overfill the holding tank until it pumped out through the vent into the intake.
Either way op has a hole in his block.
Either way op has a hole in his block.
BTW, you do realize the drain plug for the dry-sump tank is in the oil pan right???...There are TWO drain plugs in the oil pan (one for the dry-sump tank, one for the oil pan).....They are within inches of each other...A tech would have to be blind not to see both plugs and realize they both need to be removed to drain the oil from the engine, even if he thought it was a conventional oiling system.....and afterall, if he only pulled one drain plug he had a 50-50 chance of getting the one the would drain the dry-sump tank...
Believe it or not, some vehicles without dry-sump oiling DO have two drain plugs....Many Fords in the mid 80s-90s had two drain plugs...and they sure werent dry-sump engines...
As far as the amount of damage done...It's not necesary to have high rpms to do that kind of damage during a hyrdolock situation.........Ive seen hydrolock damage that was consisitent to the OPs done while at IDLE...Hell, Ive seen it done while the engine was cranking, let alone starting and revving the engine....
.
Last edited by The NNIAL8R; 02-26-2011 at 11:48 PM.
02-27-2011, 11:01 AM
#391
Burning Brakes
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Your repaired car might look and run like new, but it's worth a lot less."
As many policyholders know, when the other party's insurer is paying for repairs after an accident, you have the right to opt for original manufacturer parts instead of generic after-market ones. But even with the best parts and service in the world, a fully repaired vehicle will often be worth less as a used car or trade-in than an identical car without the accident history.
Luckily, it's not a total loss -- even if you can't collect diminished value, you can probably write it off on your tax return (consult your tax adviser). That's why it's a good idea to hire a post-repair inspector, both to ensure that the work was done properly and to assess diminished value.
FOR THOSE THAT DID NOT UNDERSTAND (LIKE ,KIND AND Q.)
As many policyholders know, when the other party's insurer is paying for repairs after an accident, you have the right to opt for original manufacturer parts instead of generic after-market ones. But even with the best parts and service in the world, a fully repaired vehicle will often be worth less as a used car or trade-in than an identical car without the accident history.
Luckily, it's not a total loss -- even if you can't collect diminished value, you can probably write it off on your tax return (consult your tax adviser). That's why it's a good idea to hire a post-repair inspector, both to ensure that the work was done properly and to assess diminished value.
FOR THOSE THAT DID NOT UNDERSTAND (LIKE ,KIND AND Q.)
If a vehicle has collision or flood damage, you are correct.
However, his car has 14K miles on it. GM installs a brand new engine. It now has less value with zero miles on it?
02-27-2011, 11:34 AM
#393
02-27-2011, 11:58 AM
#394
Get Some!
This problem has been seen many times before. Since 1997 the Corvette has had special instructions for oil changes, but dealerships use unskilled, low cost labor for oil changes. This is not the first Corvette damaged by a dealer during an oil change because of this.
02-27-2011, 12:08 PM
#396
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St. Jude Donor '11,'13
"I voluntarily took 60 days off from OT"
Yes and no....My 2007 C6Z has 8K miles on it....Even if it had 20K miles on it and GM called me up and said bring it in for a free replacement engine with 0 miles I'd decline the offer....Personally, I want the original engine in my car....Yes, I realize it will probably never have the collector status of a 63 SWC or a big block 67 convertible (not in my lifetime anyway).....I just like the fact that my car has the original engine....but if it had to be replaced Id have to live with it..I know asking for a complete new vehicle would be unreasonable...JMO
02-27-2011, 12:15 PM
#397
2009 ZR1 SN 1166
Please explain why in a dry sump system you need an opening in the valve cover for oil.I assume it is because it is the same block as in a non dry sump.
Last edited by BT ZR1; 02-27-2011 at 12:34 PM.
02-27-2011, 12:35 PM
#398
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Its the same valve cover as in a wet sump. I'm sure its used on several different engines. It could at least have a warning attached to it. Hey on my 06 if a shop/dealer destroyed my motor with 22500 miles on it it wouldn't break my heart. As I already stated I'd want HIGH KBB retail because of a fresh factory engine. Back in the OLD days,a few decades ago lets say he engine had 40 to 50k on it and insurance involved. You'd be getting a USED motor with near the same mileage. That I would not be thrilled over.
02-27-2011, 12:40 PM
#399
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Wow that sucks. So after 14 000 miles of driving, the moment THEY get their hands on it in such a small amount of time, it is the "engines time"? lmao they are trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
It's clear they have no respect for their customer's property and thus no respect for you. The employees who touched your car should all be fired unless the person who drove it like they stole it comes clean with what they did.
If they cared at all about customer service and their reputation they should give you a new car.
How come I never hear or read about these "dealer fkd my car" issues with more "normal" cars? Coincidence? Common sense tells me that there's a lot more volume of people driving cars under $50 000 who surf and post on the internet than the amount of people who own more expensive cars...the apple doesnt fall far from the tree
Hope you get something good out of this. good luck
It's clear they have no respect for their customer's property and thus no respect for you. The employees who touched your car should all be fired unless the person who drove it like they stole it comes clean with what they did.
If they cared at all about customer service and their reputation they should give you a new car.
How come I never hear or read about these "dealer fkd my car" issues with more "normal" cars? Coincidence? Common sense tells me that there's a lot more volume of people driving cars under $50 000 who surf and post on the internet than the amount of people who own more expensive cars...the apple doesnt fall far from the tree
Hope you get something good out of this. good luck
02-27-2011, 12:47 PM
#400
Le Mans Master
This diminished value debate is a red herring. People are acting like the car has taken a 50% decline in value, or totaled. It's far to speculative to determine if there is a diminished value, and what that number is (even if you convince a judge you deserved it).
The engine that will replace it will come from wixom, with the builder's name on the engine plaque. The dealer will likely stamp the car's vin on the block. End of story and you won't get more than that.
The engine that will replace it will come from wixom, with the builder's name on the engine plaque. The dealer will likely stamp the car's vin on the block. End of story and you won't get more than that.