What's so great about coilovers?
09-13-2010, 11:05 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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What's so great about coilovers?
What's so great that makes them so expensive and if they are so great then why didn't GM include them to start with or on the Z06 and ZR1?
09-13-2010, 11:18 PM
#3
Get Some!
The number one reason to have coilovers is so you can change springs for different tracks.
Number two is that our stock shocks do suck, but if you are happy with your stock springs, as I am, then you can just change your shocks, like I did.
Number two is that our stock shocks do suck, but if you are happy with your stock springs, as I am, then you can just change your shocks, like I did.
09-13-2010, 11:30 PM
#5
Get Some!
I always advise to track/auto-x your car as is before modding it so you know what you want to change and more importantly why.
09-13-2010, 11:34 PM
#6
Coilovers are best when used in conjunction with a comprehensive suspension package.What made the difference for me was the combination of:
Major improvement in handling.
- Pfadt adjustable coilovers w/ poly bushings
- Z51 sway bars w/ poly bushings
- removing GM leaf springs
- upgrade dampers
- road tested wheel alignment
- 4 point balance
- lowering ride height
- steering adjustment
- performance wheels/tires
Major improvement in handling.
09-13-2010, 11:57 PM
#7
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There was a day when Corvette used a front coil-over suspension but they switched to the transverse leaf springs (front & rear) in 1984. There are weight advantages to the composite transverse leaf springs, it acts as an anti-roll bar, lower center of gravity and they virtually never wear out. The transverse leaf spring isn't the horse and buggy technology many people think it is. Corvette has a lot of history using the transverse leaf springs and they make it work rather well.
Here's a great thread about Corvette's use of the transverse leaf spring.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ad.php?t=13582
All the advantages notwithstanding, IMHO there is a benefit to running a true, independent (4-corner) suspension...especially for racing applications. Primarily, the 'feel' of the car is just different. The 4-corner suspension eliminates the "cross-talk"* associated with the transverse leaf spring (like the side-skip you experience taking a curve with heavy expansion joints). Setup is easier and you have a greater range with height adjustable coil-overs. There are 'softer' coil-over setups for the street but IMO coil-overs come into their own on the track. Hey, if transverse leaf springs were better on the track I'd bet the Corvette Racing C6.R's would be using them.
The better coil-over's are expensive but quality products often are. I went with the LGM coil-overs which came with Hypercoil springs and the LGM tuned Bilstein dampers. Hypercoil springs are widely regarded as the best as are Bilstein shocks. Combine Lou G's expertise with Bilstein and Hypercoil engineering and they cost what they do. The LGM coil-overs are very well mated to the T1 anti-sway bars I use. I've had very good results running the LGM coil-overs.
(*I credit Doug Rippie with the term "cross-talk")
Here's a great thread about Corvette's use of the transverse leaf spring.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ad.php?t=13582
All the advantages notwithstanding, IMHO there is a benefit to running a true, independent (4-corner) suspension...especially for racing applications. Primarily, the 'feel' of the car is just different. The 4-corner suspension eliminates the "cross-talk"* associated with the transverse leaf spring (like the side-skip you experience taking a curve with heavy expansion joints). Setup is easier and you have a greater range with height adjustable coil-overs. There are 'softer' coil-over setups for the street but IMO coil-overs come into their own on the track. Hey, if transverse leaf springs were better on the track I'd bet the Corvette Racing C6.R's would be using them.
The better coil-over's are expensive but quality products often are. I went with the LGM coil-overs which came with Hypercoil springs and the LGM tuned Bilstein dampers. Hypercoil springs are widely regarded as the best as are Bilstein shocks. Combine Lou G's expertise with Bilstein and Hypercoil engineering and they cost what they do. The LGM coil-overs are very well mated to the T1 anti-sway bars I use. I've had very good results running the LGM coil-overs.
(*I credit Doug Rippie with the term "cross-talk")
09-14-2010, 07:14 AM
#8
Team Owner
We had a heated discussion in our racing club and this is from one of our top guys-
Before spending the money on a set of coil-overs for a Corvette, ask yourself: what am I trying to accomplish? There is only *ONE* advantage that coil-overs offer over the damper-and-leaf-spring set up of the Corvette. That advantage is individual corner adjustability. Meaning you can put specific springs on different corners if you need that sort of thing to help you out on the track.
I can assure you: NO ONE on this list is at the level where individual corner adjustments will help them.
My standard rant about coils on a Corvette is one Sean's probably read several times on the Corvette Forum. One of the suspension engineers for the C5 wrote a nice SAE paper on his work for the car (I have a copy of said paper at home). Bear in mind: it's related to the C5, not the C6. But the two cars aren't hugely different from the perspective of the suspension components. So the concepts listed in the paper still pertain.
GM *DID* look at coil-overs when they were developing the C5. As the engineer wrote in the paper: a *properly* engineered set of coil-overs that would offer the ride AND handling characteristics that they were seeking with the car would require a much more shallow angle for the damper. Basically, his point is that: to do it right, they'd have to move the tops of the shock towers in both front and rear: inward. This would significantly intrude on cargo space in the rear and engine space under the hood. Not acceptable.
But, that hasn't stopped the aftermarket from bringing coil-overs to market, and claiming they'll improve everything about your car. Here's what's happening, in reality: they're providing a different damping characteristic than what your car has now. They MAY be offering an *adjustable* damper, as well. They're also providing a different spring rate.
And they're making your wallet a little lighter.
Let me return to a statement I made earlier about skill level. I'm not going to mince words here: you *ALL* have cars that are *FARRRRR* beyond your abilities on the race track right now. As it turns out, so do I. :-) I'm not saying you should just stick with what you have and learn to drive it first. Part of the fun of owning a hot rod is modifying it. But, do so in a way that makes sense. Changing to coil-overs *ISN'T* going to help you. Quite frankly: you're not that good (again, neither am I. Nor is Sean.. :-P )
A buddy of mine that no longer lives in the area: Geoff Ramage. He used to own a 2007 Z06 that he drove the wheels off of at Summit. Mods to it: StopTech brakes, Hoosier-daddy tires, Sparco racing seats and harnesses. That's it. No power adders, no suspension mods... nothing. Traqmate-verified lap times in the 19s.
When you can get your cars into the 19s with tires and (perhaps) brakes, then start considering overhauling the core of your cars' suspension.
Before spending the money on a set of coil-overs for a Corvette, ask yourself: what am I trying to accomplish? There is only *ONE* advantage that coil-overs offer over the damper-and-leaf-spring set up of the Corvette. That advantage is individual corner adjustability. Meaning you can put specific springs on different corners if you need that sort of thing to help you out on the track.
I can assure you: NO ONE on this list is at the level where individual corner adjustments will help them.
My standard rant about coils on a Corvette is one Sean's probably read several times on the Corvette Forum. One of the suspension engineers for the C5 wrote a nice SAE paper on his work for the car (I have a copy of said paper at home). Bear in mind: it's related to the C5, not the C6. But the two cars aren't hugely different from the perspective of the suspension components. So the concepts listed in the paper still pertain.
GM *DID* look at coil-overs when they were developing the C5. As the engineer wrote in the paper: a *properly* engineered set of coil-overs that would offer the ride AND handling characteristics that they were seeking with the car would require a much more shallow angle for the damper. Basically, his point is that: to do it right, they'd have to move the tops of the shock towers in both front and rear: inward. This would significantly intrude on cargo space in the rear and engine space under the hood. Not acceptable.
But, that hasn't stopped the aftermarket from bringing coil-overs to market, and claiming they'll improve everything about your car. Here's what's happening, in reality: they're providing a different damping characteristic than what your car has now. They MAY be offering an *adjustable* damper, as well. They're also providing a different spring rate.
And they're making your wallet a little lighter.
Let me return to a statement I made earlier about skill level. I'm not going to mince words here: you *ALL* have cars that are *FARRRRR* beyond your abilities on the race track right now. As it turns out, so do I. :-) I'm not saying you should just stick with what you have and learn to drive it first. Part of the fun of owning a hot rod is modifying it. But, do so in a way that makes sense. Changing to coil-overs *ISN'T* going to help you. Quite frankly: you're not that good (again, neither am I. Nor is Sean.. :-P )
A buddy of mine that no longer lives in the area: Geoff Ramage. He used to own a 2007 Z06 that he drove the wheels off of at Summit. Mods to it: StopTech brakes, Hoosier-daddy tires, Sparco racing seats and harnesses. That's it. No power adders, no suspension mods... nothing. Traqmate-verified lap times in the 19s.
When you can get your cars into the 19s with tires and (perhaps) brakes, then start considering overhauling the core of your cars' suspension.
09-14-2010, 08:05 AM
#9
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Well, that's kind of :definitive," isn't it?
Of course, in the world of business, it's a matter of "give 'em what they want, or what they think they need."
And thus we have all these various products out there for our cars, most of which....aw heck, why go there?
Of course, in the world of business, it's a matter of "give 'em what they want, or what they think they need."
And thus we have all these various products out there for our cars, most of which....aw heck, why go there?
09-14-2010, 08:35 AM
#10
Safety Car
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I think it amusing that so many Vette owners lay out big bucks on a Z06, a ZR1, the Z51 optional suspension, or modify their F55 optional suspension with Z51 sway bars when only 5% track their cars. All these choices and options cause their cars to skitter and dart around bumpy curves or on washboard roads more than their standard suspension or factory F55 suspension, causing intermittant loss of tire to road contact, directional control and increased stoping distances on everyday roads because their cars are more suitable for smooth and flat road courses or tracks on which 95% of them never drive. Yet, to a man, they all claim their cars handle "better". Coilovers on cars driven on the street are a similiar waste of money. Flame on all you shade tree mechanics who know more than the GM suspension engineers.
09-14-2010, 08:58 AM
#11
Team Owner
Yet GM designed the Sky and the Solstice with coil overs. And they both have the same architecture as the Corvette. Both were designed as a car with as cheapest cost to manufacture as possible to be competitive with the Miata. Coilovers and steel body panels and they weigh 2900 pounds(53/47%). Yes, they have a lighter engine and lighter driveline then the Corvette, but with a LS7 along with t-56 trans installed, etc, to handle the increased horsepower, they weigh 3100 pounds(52/48%).
09-14-2010, 09:18 AM
#12
Race Director
09-14-2010, 12:35 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
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My consideration for the coil over is not because I am the world's best track driver that can 'feel' the difference. Mine is to consider the front lift for clearance. All the hydraulic systems start with the coil over. My gut feeling is that the cost to get the front to lift for clearance is just too expensive for what you accomplish.
09-14-2010, 12:57 PM
#15
Team Owner
Or create the impression of need and then fill that need. Companies like Proctor and Gamble have been doing that for decades.
09-14-2010, 01:06 PM
#16
Supporting Vendor
Coilovers are best when used in conjunction with a comprehensive suspension package.What made the difference for me was the combination of:
Major improvement in handling.
- Pfadt adjustable coilovers w/ poly bushings
- Z51 sway bars w/ poly bushings
- removing GM leaf springs
- upgrade dampers
- road tested wheel alignment
- 4 point balance
- lowering ride height
- steering adjustment
- performance wheels/tires
Major improvement in handling.
Also... coil overs gives you true independent suspension... ie; when you go over a pothole, the whole entire car will not shake like a shopping cart, lol. The 16-Way agjustable coilovers from Pfadt is what we prefer using, and they are night and day difference... Paired with the sway bars... it feels like a completely different car. Much more stable around corners, very little-to-no body roll, depending on your adjustments, etc...
09-14-2010, 03:12 PM
#17
Former Vendor
I think it amusing that so many Vette owners lay out big bucks on a Z06, a ZR1, the Z51 optional suspension, or modify their F55 optional suspension with Z51 sway bars when only 5% track their cars. All these choices and options cause their cars to skitter and dart around bumpy curves or on washboard roads more than their standard suspension or factory F55 suspension, causing intermittant loss of tire to road contact, directional control and increased stoping distances on everyday roads because their cars are more suitable for smooth and flat road courses or tracks on which 95% of them never drive. Yet, to a man, they all claim their cars handle "better". Coilovers on cars driven on the street are a similiar waste of money. Flame on all you shade tree mechanics who know more than the GM suspension engineers.
But us shade tree mechanics increase spring rate, allow lower ride heights, and reduce the amount of skitter, and dart. Both street and track.
Thinking back to all the road race tracks in the US today. Only a couple of them are flat, no bumps and what I would call a smooth surface. Then thinking back to testing, does the stopwatch lie?
Then thinking back to what hundreds of customers complain about.
"rear end feels unsettled, like it's going to wash out at any point, nervous, scary" Then after a coilover conversion. "planted, robust, getting on the gas earlier, lap times came down"
But like said before in this thread. It's a matter of "give 'em what they want, or what they think they need."
Sure there is some that are fast on stock setups, but that same driver on the same tires with a better setup will go faster and it will feel better.
Coilovers are not for everybody, but people wanting to take the next step towards a better feeling, better handling and faster lap time car will benefit from a coilover setup.
Randy
PS Wayne we stopped using the term "cross talk" for our marketing. But still looking for a good term for the magic that happens in between the two sides. It only ever seems to be a good thing when talking with engineers and a bad thing talking with racers.
09-14-2010, 03:14 PM
#18
Former Vendor
My consideration for the coil over is not because I am the world's best track driver that can 'feel' the difference. Mine is to consider the front lift for clearance. All the hydraulic systems start with the coil over. My gut feeling is that the cost to get the front to lift for clearance is just too expensive for what you accomplish.
Randy
09-14-2010, 04:47 PM
#20
Team Owner
I think it amusing that so many Vette owners lay out big bucks on a Z06, a ZR1, the Z51 optional suspension, or modify their F55 optional suspension with Z51 sway bars when only 5% track their cars. All these choices and options cause their cars to skitter and dart around bumpy curves or on washboard roads more than their standard suspension or factory F55 suspension, causing intermittant loss of tire to road contact, directional control and increased stoping distances on everyday roads because their cars are more suitable for smooth and flat road courses or tracks on which 95% of them never drive. Yet, to a man, they all claim their cars handle "better". Coilovers on cars driven on the street are a similiar waste of money. Flame on all you shade tree mechanics who know more than the GM suspension engineers.
