Grand Sport Dry Sump LS3 - builder tags
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Grand Sport Dry Sump LS3 - builder tags
You may be interested in knowing that LS3 dry sump engines are hand built at GM Performance Build Center in Wixom MI.
Each engine has a builder ID tag on the front surface of the intake manifold (IAFM), on the RH side.
If anyone is interested, we can start a "Who Built Your Dry Sump LS3". thread. There are similar threads for LS7 and LS9 engines. It's been fun for Z06 and ZR1 owners, and for those of us that assemble the engines at Wixom.
Thank you all for your Corvette enthusiasm!!
Each engine has a builder ID tag on the front surface of the intake manifold (IAFM), on the RH side.
If anyone is interested, we can start a "Who Built Your Dry Sump LS3". thread. There are similar threads for LS7 and LS9 engines. It's been fun for Z06 and ZR1 owners, and for those of us that assemble the engines at Wixom.
Thank you all for your Corvette enthusiasm!!
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conft84 (09-18-2021)
#3
Melting Slicks
That's great for M6 buyers, but I have a bad left leg and cannot use a clutch anymore. I have to buy the auto transmission and you don't get the hand built engine, forged crank, or launch control with the automatic. However, you get no credit for not getting these things, and you are still charged about $1200.00 extra for the auto. I just don't think it's fair.
#5
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'12
That's great for M6 buyers, but I have a bad left leg and cannot use a clutch anymore. I have to buy the auto transmission and you don't get the hand built engine, forged crank, or launch control with the automatic. However, you get no credit for not getting these things, and you are still charged about $1200.00 extra for the auto. I just don't think it's fair.
#6
You may be interested in knowing that LS3 dry sump engines are hand built at GM Performance Build Center in Wixom MI.
Each engine has a builder ID tag on the front surface of the intake manifold (IAFM), on the RH side.
If anyone is interested, we can start a "Who Built Your Dry Sump LS3". thread. There are similar threads for LS7 and LS9 engines. It's been fun for Z06 and ZR1 owners, and for those of us that assemble the engines at Wixom.
Thank you all for your Corvette enthusiasm!!
Each engine has a builder ID tag on the front surface of the intake manifold (IAFM), on the RH side.
If anyone is interested, we can start a "Who Built Your Dry Sump LS3". thread. There are similar threads for LS7 and LS9 engines. It's been fun for Z06 and ZR1 owners, and for those of us that assemble the engines at Wixom.
Thank you all for your Corvette enthusiasm!!
Also of interest would be if this "hand building" will result in higher hp, greater reliability, or anything else tangible.
Certainly forged cranks are a good thing. But, I don't recall many crank failures being discussed on the LS3. What can the owner of a forged crank LS3 expect in the way of superior performance and reliability?
Don't hold back now! Tell us all the reasons why Wixom hand built engines are superior to those built the "other way".
#7
Melting Slicks
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2020 C8 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
You may be interested in knowing that LS3 dry sump engines are hand built at GM Performance Build Center in Wixom MI.
Each engine has a builder ID tag on the front surface of the intake manifold (IAFM), on the RH side.
If anyone is interested, we can start a "Who Built Your Dry Sump LS3". thread. There are similar threads for LS7 and LS9 engines. It's been fun for Z06 and ZR1 owners, and for those of us that assemble the engines at Wixom.
Thank you all for your Corvette enthusiasm!!
Each engine has a builder ID tag on the front surface of the intake manifold (IAFM), on the RH side.
If anyone is interested, we can start a "Who Built Your Dry Sump LS3". thread. There are similar threads for LS7 and LS9 engines. It's been fun for Z06 and ZR1 owners, and for those of us that assemble the engines at Wixom.
Thank you all for your Corvette enthusiasm!!
I just ordered a Grand Sport on Friday so sometime three or 4 months from now I will be able to open my hood post the information. Can't wait
#8
Melting Slicks
I'm sure that many would be enthusiastic to learn , right from the source, about the many ways that a "hand built Wixom" LS3 is superior to a non-hand built Wixom LS3. Don't be shy, be specific and tell us all the differences.
Also of interest would be if this "hand building" will result in higher hp, greater reliability, or anything else tangible.
Certainly forged cranks are a good thing. But, I don't recall many crank failures being discussed on the LS3. What can the owner of a forged crank LS3 expect in the way of superior performance and reliability?
Don't hold back now! Tell us all the reasons why Wixom hand built engines are superior to those built the "other way".
Also of interest would be if this "hand building" will result in higher hp, greater reliability, or anything else tangible.
Certainly forged cranks are a good thing. But, I don't recall many crank failures being discussed on the LS3. What can the owner of a forged crank LS3 expect in the way of superior performance and reliability?
Don't hold back now! Tell us all the reasons why Wixom hand built engines are superior to those built the "other way".
I would be interested in hearing a response to this too. It would either make me feel better about things...or maybe worse. Either way, I'm interested in the response. Although no matter what the answer is about performance and reliability, the A6 buyers are still getting slighted.
#9
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Good grief! A guy comes on here to start up a nice thread or two on the reason this forum even exists, such as Corvette, and gets grilled and put on the roasting spit.
Ever wonder why more peop don't identify themselves as being associated with the build of, or fix of the Vette? Just take a look at this thread.
Fer cryin' out loud...
Ever wonder why more peop don't identify themselves as being associated with the build of, or fix of the Vette? Just take a look at this thread.
Fer cryin' out loud...
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Value of "hand-built" engines?
I'm sure that many would be enthusiastic to learn , right from the source, about the many ways that a "hand built Wixom" LS3 is superior to a non-hand built Wixom LS3. Don't be shy, be specific and tell us all the differences.
Also of interest would be if this "hand building" will result in higher hp, greater reliability, or anything else tangible.
Certainly forged cranks are a good thing. But, I don't recall many crank failures being discussed on the LS3. What can the owner of a forged crank LS3 expect in the way of superior performance and reliability?
Don't hold back now! Tell us all the reasons why Wixom hand built engines are superior to those built the "other way".
Also of interest would be if this "hand building" will result in higher hp, greater reliability, or anything else tangible.
Certainly forged cranks are a good thing. But, I don't recall many crank failures being discussed on the LS3. What can the owner of a forged crank LS3 expect in the way of superior performance and reliability?
Don't hold back now! Tell us all the reasons why Wixom hand built engines are superior to those built the "other way".
With that in mind, I'll offer some observations from my perspective:
Hand built engines have a higher level of scrutiny. This applies to the inspection of parts before assembly and to examination of complete engines. Parts are closely inspected for imperfections and for cleanliness. Also a builder develops a "feel" for how things should go. If something doesn't feel right, you can immediately verify - or back up if need be. An example of "feel" is inserting pistons into cylinders.
Close inspection is inherent to the process - each part is installed by the same builder - and installation requires a high degree of awareness. That is not to say that all defects are always caught - but we do have some very careful eyes looking things over. An added incentive to careful assembly is that our names are attached to our engines.
If defects are found, or suspected, we have immediate response from our in house quality and engineering teams. If something is questioned, it can be immediately contained until the issue is resolved. Again, I'm no expert regarding what happens at high volume engine plants, but I do know that our close scrutiny has resulted in changes from our suppliers ensuring cleaner parts, and fewer imperfections. Examples include better packaging of cylinder blocks and crankshafts. Our observations and findings put the heat on suppliers to supply consistent, high quality components.
Error proofing:
All torques have multiple checks. When a fastener is tightened there is an immediate go/no go indicaton. Also each station has a flat line indicator to ensure all torques are complete. Further, the stations are monitored with zone reports. There are four zones for each engine built which give a green (go) or red (no go) indication. When completing a zone, the builder does a bar code scan for his engine to get this output.
Leak checks - each engine is carefully leak checked before completion. Water and oil systems are pressurized and leakage is recorded. Again, there is a green (go) or red (no go) output. If there is a problem it is immediately investigated and fixed. I have been told that our specs. are among the strictest for any engine plant.
Care checks - Each engine is carefully examined by the team leader at the end of the line, using a comprehensive checklist. After cold test and balance the engine is again checked against an exhaustive checklist.
Cold test - Each engine is spun and checked in house at our cold test cells. Thousands of data points are recorded and scrutinized by the computer program. If a problem is suspected it is immediately caught and examined by our quality specialists. Items checked include ignition, oil pressure, torque variation, cylinder pressure and many more. Cold test has proven to be a valuable quality tool.
Balance checks - After cold test each engine is run and balanced. Balance must be within 0.5 inch ounces at front balancer and flywheel before it is shipped (and is often much less).
Customer focus - We are low volume so every order is very important us. We cannot survive unless our customers (you) are satisfied.We have frequent customer interaction, through the Corvette Forum and other venues.
Tangible value - This is somewhat subjective. Many Z06 and ZR1 owners enjoy knowing who built their engines, and some have come into the PBC for tours and to meet their builder. Our facility is owner friendly - you can easily arrange a tour to see how our process works.
I would like to believe that our product retains a premium dollar value, but that may be harder to verify with the economic turmoil of the last year or so.
Sorry if I've danced around some of your questions. I hope this info is of some value to you. I'm sure I've missed some points that should be included. If you have any particular questions, please ask.
Don Henley
#11
Melting Slicks
Good grief! A guy comes on here to start up a nice thread or two on the reason this forum even exists, such as Corvette, and gets grilled and put on the roasting spit.
Ever wonder why more peop don't identify themselves as being associated with the build of, or fix of the Vette? Just take a look at this thread.
Fer cryin' out loud...
Ever wonder why more peop don't identify themselves as being associated with the build of, or fix of the Vette? Just take a look at this thread.
Fer cryin' out loud...
#12
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Hand built can also backfire and suffer from more human error. I don't think it is a positive or negative. It may however provide a "feel good" factor that cannot be measured.
#13
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GM motors
I doubt that I can adequately answer all of your questions regarding advantages of our hand built engines. In order to do so I would need comparative data concerning power, reliability, durability and failure rates of mass produced vs. hand built. As an engine builder I do not have conclusive information. All I can do is address questions about our hand built process.
With that in mind, I'll offer some observations from my perspective:
Hand built engines have a higher level of scrutiny. This applies to the inspection of parts before assembly and to examination of complete engines. Parts are closely inspected for imperfections and for cleanliness. Also a builder develops a "feel" for how things should go. If something doesn't feel right, you can immediately verify - or back up if need be. An example of "feel" is inserting pistons into cylinders.
Close inspection is inherent to the process - each part is installed by the same builder - and installation requires a high degree of awareness. That is not to say that all defects are always caught - but we do have some very careful eyes looking things over. An added incentive to careful assembly is that our names are attached to our engines.
If defects are found, or suspected, we have immediate response from our in house quality and engineering teams. If something is questioned, it can be immediately contained until the issue is resolved. Again, I'm no expert regarding what happens at high volume engine plants, but I do know that our close scrutiny has resulted in changes from our suppliers ensuring cleaner parts, and fewer imperfections. Examples include better packaging of cylinder blocks and crankshafts. Our observations and findings put the heat on suppliers to supply consistent, high quality components.
Error proofing:
All torques have multiple checks. When a fastener is tightened there is an immediate go/no go indicaton. Also each station has a flat line indicator to ensure all torques are complete. Further, the stations are monitored with zone reports. There are four zones for each engine built which give a green (go) or red (no go) indication. When completing a zone, the builder does a bar code scan for his engine to get this output.
Leak checks - each engine is carefully leak checked before completion. Water and oil systems are pressurized and leakage is recorded. Again, there is a green (go) or red (no go) output. If there is a problem it is immediately investigated and fixed. I have been told that our specs. are among the strictest for any engine plant.
Care checks - Each engine is carefully examined by the team leader at the end of the line, using a comprehensive checklist. After cold test and balance the engine is again checked against an exhaustive checklist.
Cold test - Each engine is spun and checked in house at our cold test cells. Thousands of data points are recorded and scrutinized by the computer program. If a problem is suspected it is immediately caught and examined by our quality specialists. Items checked include ignition, oil pressure, torque variation, cylinder pressure and many more. Cold test has proven to be a valuable quality tool.
Balance checks - After cold test each engine is run and balanced. Balance must be within 0.5 inch ounces at front balancer and flywheel before it is shipped (and is often much less).
Customer focus - We are low volume so every order is very important us. We cannot survive unless our customers (you) are satisfied.We have frequent customer interaction, through the Corvette Forum and other venues.
Tangible value - This is somewhat subjective. Many Z06 and ZR1 owners enjoy knowing who built their engines, and some have come into the PBC for tours and to meet their builder. Our facility is owner friendly - you can easily arrange a tour to see how our process works.
I would like to believe that our product retains a premium dollar value, but that may be harder to verify with the economic turmoil of the last year or so.
Sorry if I've danced around some of your questions. I hope this info is of some value to you. I'm sure I've missed some points that should be included. If you have any particular questions, please ask.
Don Henley
With that in mind, I'll offer some observations from my perspective:
Hand built engines have a higher level of scrutiny. This applies to the inspection of parts before assembly and to examination of complete engines. Parts are closely inspected for imperfections and for cleanliness. Also a builder develops a "feel" for how things should go. If something doesn't feel right, you can immediately verify - or back up if need be. An example of "feel" is inserting pistons into cylinders.
Close inspection is inherent to the process - each part is installed by the same builder - and installation requires a high degree of awareness. That is not to say that all defects are always caught - but we do have some very careful eyes looking things over. An added incentive to careful assembly is that our names are attached to our engines.
If defects are found, or suspected, we have immediate response from our in house quality and engineering teams. If something is questioned, it can be immediately contained until the issue is resolved. Again, I'm no expert regarding what happens at high volume engine plants, but I do know that our close scrutiny has resulted in changes from our suppliers ensuring cleaner parts, and fewer imperfections. Examples include better packaging of cylinder blocks and crankshafts. Our observations and findings put the heat on suppliers to supply consistent, high quality components.
Error proofing:
All torques have multiple checks. When a fastener is tightened there is an immediate go/no go indicaton. Also each station has a flat line indicator to ensure all torques are complete. Further, the stations are monitored with zone reports. There are four zones for each engine built which give a green (go) or red (no go) indication. When completing a zone, the builder does a bar code scan for his engine to get this output.
Leak checks - each engine is carefully leak checked before completion. Water and oil systems are pressurized and leakage is recorded. Again, there is a green (go) or red (no go) output. If there is a problem it is immediately investigated and fixed. I have been told that our specs. are among the strictest for any engine plant.
Care checks - Each engine is carefully examined by the team leader at the end of the line, using a comprehensive checklist. After cold test and balance the engine is again checked against an exhaustive checklist.
Cold test - Each engine is spun and checked in house at our cold test cells. Thousands of data points are recorded and scrutinized by the computer program. If a problem is suspected it is immediately caught and examined by our quality specialists. Items checked include ignition, oil pressure, torque variation, cylinder pressure and many more. Cold test has proven to be a valuable quality tool.
Balance checks - After cold test each engine is run and balanced. Balance must be within 0.5 inch ounces at front balancer and flywheel before it is shipped (and is often much less).
Customer focus - We are low volume so every order is very important us. We cannot survive unless our customers (you) are satisfied.We have frequent customer interaction, through the Corvette Forum and other venues.
Tangible value - This is somewhat subjective. Many Z06 and ZR1 owners enjoy knowing who built their engines, and some have come into the PBC for tours and to meet their builder. Our facility is owner friendly - you can easily arrange a tour to see how our process works.
I would like to believe that our product retains a premium dollar value, but that may be harder to verify with the economic turmoil of the last year or so.
Sorry if I've danced around some of your questions. I hope this info is of some value to you. I'm sure I've missed some points that should be included. If you have any particular questions, please ask.
Don Henley
How are the LS3's built in the factory - don't they use automated equipment like the LS7's due? Is there an apples to apples example for at least part of the process? Also can someone get a copy of all the check results for their motor that your company built.
#14
Melting Slicks
That's great for M6 buyers, but I have a bad left leg and cannot use a clutch anymore. I have to buy the auto transmission and you don't get the hand built engine, forged crank, or launch control with the automatic. However, you get no credit for not getting these things, and you are still charged about $1200.00 extra for the auto. I just don't think it's fair.
Anyone know/understand why GM seems to be giving the M6 cars all the extras for free?
To the OP, thanks for the information, I appreciate your taking the time to post and hope to hear more from you and other guys involved directly with the assembly and production of our cars!
#17
I doubt that I can adequately answer all of your questions regarding advantages of our hand built engines. In order to do so I would need comparative data concerning power, reliability, durability and failure rates of mass produced vs. hand built. As an engine builder I do not have conclusive information. All I can do is address questions about our hand built process.
With that in mind, I'll offer some observations from my perspective:
Hand built engines have a higher level of scrutiny. This applies to the inspection of parts before assembly and to examination of complete engines. Parts are closely inspected for imperfections and for cleanliness. Also a builder develops a "feel" for how things should go. If something doesn't feel right, you can immediately verify - or back up if need be. An example of "feel" is inserting pistons into cylinders.
Close inspection is inherent to the process - each part is installed by the same builder - and installation requires a high degree of awareness. That is not to say that all defects are always caught - but we do have some very careful eyes looking things over. An added incentive to careful assembly is that our names are attached to our engines.
If defects are found, or suspected, we have immediate response from our in house quality and engineering teams. If something is questioned, it can be immediately contained until the issue is resolved. Again, I'm no expert regarding what happens at high volume engine plants, but I do know that our close scrutiny has resulted in changes from our suppliers ensuring cleaner parts, and fewer imperfections. Examples include better packaging of cylinder blocks and crankshafts. Our observations and findings put the heat on suppliers to supply consistent, high quality components.
Error proofing:
All torques have multiple checks. When a fastener is tightened there is an immediate go/no go indicaton. Also each station has a flat line indicator to ensure all torques are complete. Further, the stations are monitored with zone reports. There are four zones for each engine built which give a green (go) or red (no go) indication. When completing a zone, the builder does a bar code scan for his engine to get this output.
Leak checks - each engine is carefully leak checked before completion. Water and oil systems are pressurized and leakage is recorded. Again, there is a green (go) or red (no go) output. If there is a problem it is immediately investigated and fixed. I have been told that our specs. are among the strictest for any engine plant.
Care checks - Each engine is carefully examined by the team leader at the end of the line, using a comprehensive checklist. After cold test and balance the engine is again checked against an exhaustive checklist.
Cold test - Each engine is spun and checked in house at our cold test cells. Thousands of data points are recorded and scrutinized by the computer program. If a problem is suspected it is immediately caught and examined by our quality specialists. Items checked include ignition, oil pressure, torque variation, cylinder pressure and many more. Cold test has proven to be a valuable quality tool.
Balance checks - After cold test each engine is run and balanced. Balance must be within 0.5 inch ounces at front balancer and flywheel before it is shipped (and is often much less).
Customer focus - We are low volume so every order is very important us. We cannot survive unless our customers (you) are satisfied.We have frequent customer interaction, through the Corvette Forum and other venues.
Tangible value - This is somewhat subjective. Many Z06 and ZR1 owners enjoy knowing who built their engines, and some have come into the PBC for tours and to meet their builder. Our facility is owner friendly - you can easily arrange a tour to see how our process works.
I would like to believe that our product retains a premium dollar value, but that may be harder to verify with the economic turmoil of the last year or so.
Sorry if I've danced around some of your questions. I hope this info is of some value to you. I'm sure I've missed some points that should be included. If you have any particular questions, please ask.
Don Henley
With that in mind, I'll offer some observations from my perspective:
Hand built engines have a higher level of scrutiny. This applies to the inspection of parts before assembly and to examination of complete engines. Parts are closely inspected for imperfections and for cleanliness. Also a builder develops a "feel" for how things should go. If something doesn't feel right, you can immediately verify - or back up if need be. An example of "feel" is inserting pistons into cylinders.
Close inspection is inherent to the process - each part is installed by the same builder - and installation requires a high degree of awareness. That is not to say that all defects are always caught - but we do have some very careful eyes looking things over. An added incentive to careful assembly is that our names are attached to our engines.
If defects are found, or suspected, we have immediate response from our in house quality and engineering teams. If something is questioned, it can be immediately contained until the issue is resolved. Again, I'm no expert regarding what happens at high volume engine plants, but I do know that our close scrutiny has resulted in changes from our suppliers ensuring cleaner parts, and fewer imperfections. Examples include better packaging of cylinder blocks and crankshafts. Our observations and findings put the heat on suppliers to supply consistent, high quality components.
Error proofing:
All torques have multiple checks. When a fastener is tightened there is an immediate go/no go indicaton. Also each station has a flat line indicator to ensure all torques are complete. Further, the stations are monitored with zone reports. There are four zones for each engine built which give a green (go) or red (no go) indication. When completing a zone, the builder does a bar code scan for his engine to get this output.
Leak checks - each engine is carefully leak checked before completion. Water and oil systems are pressurized and leakage is recorded. Again, there is a green (go) or red (no go) output. If there is a problem it is immediately investigated and fixed. I have been told that our specs. are among the strictest for any engine plant.
Care checks - Each engine is carefully examined by the team leader at the end of the line, using a comprehensive checklist. After cold test and balance the engine is again checked against an exhaustive checklist.
Cold test - Each engine is spun and checked in house at our cold test cells. Thousands of data points are recorded and scrutinized by the computer program. If a problem is suspected it is immediately caught and examined by our quality specialists. Items checked include ignition, oil pressure, torque variation, cylinder pressure and many more. Cold test has proven to be a valuable quality tool.
Balance checks - After cold test each engine is run and balanced. Balance must be within 0.5 inch ounces at front balancer and flywheel before it is shipped (and is often much less).
Customer focus - We are low volume so every order is very important us. We cannot survive unless our customers (you) are satisfied.We have frequent customer interaction, through the Corvette Forum and other venues.
Tangible value - This is somewhat subjective. Many Z06 and ZR1 owners enjoy knowing who built their engines, and some have come into the PBC for tours and to meet their builder. Our facility is owner friendly - you can easily arrange a tour to see how our process works.
I would like to believe that our product retains a premium dollar value, but that may be harder to verify with the economic turmoil of the last year or so.
Sorry if I've danced around some of your questions. I hope this info is of some value to you. I'm sure I've missed some points that should be included. If you have any particular questions, please ask.
Don Henley
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rdwalljr (04-24-2023)
#18
Drifting
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'12
#19
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I'm not sure how our process compares to higher production LS3's. I'm sure they use more automation and that each worker does only a portion of the build process. From everything I hear their process also results in a very high quality product.
Regarding automation - we do use electronic computer controlled torque guns. Cylinder heads, main caps and rod caps use multi-spindle devices. Mains and rods tighten two bolts simultaneously. Head bolts tighten all fifteen (per head) at once.
Final torque and angle are set as programmed. Static torques are checked daily to ensure everything is giving correct final torque. And of course cold test and balance are highly automated.
I do not think build records are made available. They are stored on computer, and paper copy is stored long-term offsite. However, you can be sure that no engines are shipped without all correct torques. All quality checks must also be passed.
#20
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Wixom
Don:
Thanks for the great info on the engine build process. I ordered a 2010 Grand Sport 2 weeks ago with M6 tran. I saw the build process on TV a couple of times, very impressive.
I found out that the Bowling Green assembly Plant is shut down from Oct 28th thru Dec 11th. Did this shutdown also affect your engine assembly line?
Thanks,
Rick
Thanks for the great info on the engine build process. I ordered a 2010 Grand Sport 2 weeks ago with M6 tran. I saw the build process on TV a couple of times, very impressive.
I found out that the Bowling Green assembly Plant is shut down from Oct 28th thru Dec 11th. Did this shutdown also affect your engine assembly line?
Thanks,
Rick