07 C6 engine blew - GM final Decision
10-09-2009, 12:25 AM
#161
Safety Car
To the OP - Sorry to hear about the rejected claim. It really sucks, but it is the right thing for GM to do on behalf of their owners (all of us these days)... at least in the short term. Long term, it may end up leading to reduced sales from disgruntled former owners, but hopefully the number of people who fall into this situation are small.
Most of all, to the OP though... Thanks for providing this information, and a BIG thanks for stepping up, and not taking the all too easy (and too often used) "It's not my fault... it's their fault..." attitude. If you do have reason to believe this failure was not impacted by the aftermarket tune, and was solely the result of a manufacturer defect, you might want to review some of the info from SEMA: http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=60128
To all of those people offering their input and advice that 'even though GM says they will not honor the warranty with a tune, getting a tune is okay because GM won't catch you"...
Most of all, to the OP though... Thanks for providing this information, and a BIG thanks for stepping up, and not taking the all too easy (and too often used) "It's not my fault... it's their fault..." attitude. If you do have reason to believe this failure was not impacted by the aftermarket tune, and was solely the result of a manufacturer defect, you might want to review some of the info from SEMA: http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=60128
To all of those people offering their input and advice that 'even though GM says they will not honor the warranty with a tune, getting a tune is okay because GM won't catch you"...
Last edited by WAwatchnut; 10-09-2009 at 12:31 AM.
10-09-2009, 12:28 AM
#162
Le Mans Master
No matter how many folks use it this way (like many Mazda Miatas), it is not sold as a purpose-built race car...not even the ZR1. It is sold as a very fast sports car that is plenty fast compared to any mass-production car for the price that is sold in the U.S.A.
Anyone who has been here any amount of time has often read that even minor modding of any Vette can cause a variety of problems, whether under warranty or not. Expecting a Vette to survive beyond the normal operating parameters any more than a Miata or a Taurus would is wishful thinking, and is not what you are being sold by GM.
Those who want to radically change the operating parameters of the engine are asking for trouble that the rest of us shouldn't need to pay for. Bottom line is that I'm happy GM is playing it close to the vest on this. To the rest...as the OP has rightly said...you pay to play so get used to it. Flame on.
10-09-2009, 12:52 AM
#163
If GM offered just 75 Horsepower worth of Warrantee dealer installed factory performance for their LS3 they would make a killing.
75 HP backed by GM is a lot better than 150 HP of Voided drivetrain any day. ..
Instead, they give this guy the boot with nothing more than “ he had a Tune “.
Sorry, I don’t agree,
We are all customers of one of,, if not the most Prestigious vehicle that GM offers and a performance vehicle at that.
Again, look at Harley, the V-Twin isn’t a rice rocket and the Motor Company welcomes the customer in the HP game.
GM is going backwards, they need to wake up.
75 HP backed by GM is a lot better than 150 HP of Voided drivetrain any day. ..
Instead, they give this guy the boot with nothing more than “ he had a Tune “.
Sorry, I don’t agree,
We are all customers of one of,, if not the most Prestigious vehicle that GM offers and a performance vehicle at that.
Again, look at Harley, the V-Twin isn’t a rice rocket and the Motor Company welcomes the customer in the HP game.
GM is going backwards, they need to wake up.
What was the mod? The front forks and rear shocks had been swapped out for the XR1200X parts. Harley parts installed on a Harley motorcycle by a guy who owns the bike, and a Yamaha dealership, and that was the end of Harley service on that motorcycle. The new Harley policy is that they won't touch a bike that isn't either factory stock or modified by an authorized Harley dealer with Harley parts.
Now yes, Harley offers Screaming Chicken packages which they'll warranty if dealer installed. But in this case the mod was just updating a bike from 2009 to 2010 specs using factory parts. Because a Harley dealer didn't do the work, the bike is now considered an outlaw.
10-09-2009, 12:59 AM
#164
Melting Slicks
wow Harley is prime for a lawsuit there and they will lose just like all the rest that try to bend consumers over. There are laws in the country that protect the consumer and Harley is squarely in the wrong. Can't wait to hear about it and watch their tumbling stock lower further.
You better check back with Harley, they are playing the same game as GM is now. One of the members of the XR1200 forum took his bike in for the 1,000 mile check. The dealer called him and told him to come get his bike. They wouldn't work on it because it had been modded. Now this isn't even a warranty claim, this is merely a required service that the customer pays for. But they wouldn't do it, because the bike had been modded.
What was the mod? The front forks and rear shocks had been swapped out for the XR1200X parts. Harley parts installed on a Harley motorcycle by a guy who owns the bike, and a Yamaha dealership, and that was the end of Harley service on that motorcycle. The new Harley policy is that they won't touch a bike that isn't either factory stock or modified by an authorized Harley dealer with Harley parts.
Now yes, Harley offers Screaming Chicken packages which they'll warranty if dealer installed. But in this case the mod was just updating a bike from 2009 to 2010 specs using factory parts. Because a Harley dealer didn't do the work, the bike is now considered an outlaw.
What was the mod? The front forks and rear shocks had been swapped out for the XR1200X parts. Harley parts installed on a Harley motorcycle by a guy who owns the bike, and a Yamaha dealership, and that was the end of Harley service on that motorcycle. The new Harley policy is that they won't touch a bike that isn't either factory stock or modified by an authorized Harley dealer with Harley parts.
Now yes, Harley offers Screaming Chicken packages which they'll warranty if dealer installed. But in this case the mod was just updating a bike from 2009 to 2010 specs using factory parts. Because a Harley dealer didn't do the work, the bike is now considered an outlaw.
10-09-2009, 01:53 AM
#165
wow Harley is prime for a lawsuit there and they will lose just like all the rest that try to bend consumers over. There are laws in the country that protect the consumer and Harley is squarely in the wrong. Can't wait to hear about it and watch their tumbling stock lower further.
10-09-2009, 05:23 AM
#166
Racer
One more point to you...many on this forum seem to think the Corvette is a track-ready race car. Sorry to burst your bubble but no matter how many illusions you may have about it, it is not a race car any more than a Mazda Miata is.
No matter how many folks use it this way (like many Mazda Miatas), it is not sold as a purpose-built race car...not even the ZR1. It is sold as a very fast sports car that is plenty fast compared to any mass-production car for the price that is sold in the U.S.A.
No matter how many folks use it this way (like many Mazda Miatas), it is not sold as a purpose-built race car...not even the ZR1. It is sold as a very fast sports car that is plenty fast compared to any mass-production car for the price that is sold in the U.S.A.
10-09-2009, 06:01 AM
#167
Le Mans Master
that sucks but I think we all saw that coming. I hope it all works out for you and keep us posted of the new engine. I would do a stroker built right! All motor HP is SWEET!
10-09-2009, 06:48 AM
#168
Had a feeling this would be the outcome.
Now that it is "Government Motors" the warranty will be fully enforced to the letter. Customer base is going to eventually grow tired of that and just one more reason that GM will wind up going belly up in a few years, only this time it will be for real.
Can you say Socialism? Good, I knew you could.
Now that it is "Government Motors" the warranty will be fully enforced to the letter. Customer base is going to eventually grow tired of that and just one more reason that GM will wind up going belly up in a few years, only this time it will be for real.
Can you say Socialism? Good, I knew you could.
10-09-2009, 07:12 AM
#169
I completely agree with a lot of you guys when you say that an owner has to be prepared to pay for consequences of modifications. But there are some cases where the "void first, ask questions later" policies are clearly wrong. I have the perfect example. A few months after I supercharged my old car, I started experiencing some really strange auto transmission problems, 4th and 5th gear would lock up and refuse to downshift and the car would shake violently before finally downshifting. Before I even took the car in, I started researching like it was a part time job, because I knew there was a tiny chance that it could be due to a factory defect. Turns out I was right, I found a guy across the country who had the exact same problem with a bone stock car and there was a newly released TSB for the problem. I went to the dealership armed with the TSB and the contact info for the dealership that had fixed the other guy's car. Their initial reaction was that it had to be trans damage due to the supercharger, but my case was pretty strong, the symptoms perfectly matched a TSB AND a case involving a stock car at another dealership. In the end, they replaced my valve body under warranty. Would have cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000+.
I won't lie though, it wasn't easy. You basically have to prove (or strongly suggest) that the problem would have occurred even without your modifications. Particularly difficult with engines, how do you prove that your engine would have blown at x miles stock vs. y miles modified due to a specific factory defect.
EDIT: on the flip side, had they torn open the transmission and found something like clutch pack damage, I would have accepted the fact that it was due to my own actions (doubling the torque output), and eaten the cost. Probably would have shipped out the new transmission for a full build too.
I won't lie though, it wasn't easy. You basically have to prove (or strongly suggest) that the problem would have occurred even without your modifications. Particularly difficult with engines, how do you prove that your engine would have blown at x miles stock vs. y miles modified due to a specific factory defect.
EDIT: on the flip side, had they torn open the transmission and found something like clutch pack damage, I would have accepted the fact that it was due to my own actions (doubling the torque output), and eaten the cost. Probably would have shipped out the new transmission for a full build too.
Last edited by boost2na; 10-09-2009 at 07:22 AM.
10-09-2009, 08:20 AM
#170
Team Owner
Just burns my a$$ that I drove to this meeting in my 11 year old Ford F-150 with 230,578 hard driven, boat and horse hauling miles on it. And all I've done beside normal service was 1 serpantine belt and 1 O2 sensor
I'd be looking at the place that did the tune for some renumeration (sp?)here.Obviously,their parameters for your engine tolerances was off! It's been tough as hell,but GM playing this game has stopped me dead in my tracks from modding my car!
10-09-2009, 08:31 AM
#171
Team Owner
wow Harley is prime for a lawsuit there and they will lose just like all the rest that try to bend consumers over. There are laws in the country that protect the consumer and Harley is squarely in the wrong. Can't wait to hear about it and watch their tumbling stock lower further.
I'm staying 100% so I won't have to try and blame GM or the dealer for my mistakes.
Tom
10-09-2009, 08:32 AM
#172
Burning Brakes
For my 2 cents, there has been information available on this forum since I joined that warns of warranty voiding and mods, including tuning. For the past 2.5 years I have religiously avoided doing anything that voids my warranty and the car has not a single problem...knock on wood. As a result, I reevaluated my warranty fear and decided to go FI, but with LPE to get their warranty on the engine. I am willing to risk the powertrain warranty since I don't track the car. As others have said, my GMPP is still there for A/C, cruise control, and other such common failures. It is simply an informed choice and there seem to be very few reports performance induced failures.
Larry
Larry
10-09-2009, 08:39 AM
#173
Drifting
I would consult with a competent attorney with experience in this area. I would also launch an aggressive negative paublicity campaign against the dealer and GM.
Whomever said this path was a 'waste of money' is dead wrong.
My 2008 Honda motorcycle developed engine damage as a result of excessive oil consumption.
The dealer tried to blame me stating I had incorrectly installed an aftermarket air-filter, which caused the damage, and Honda voided my warranty.
I retained competent counsel, and for a fraction of the cost of obtaining a new engine, Honda gave me a new motorcycle. I also made life difficult for the dealer at every opportunity.
Voiding a warranty for a tune, which in all likelihood had absolutely nothing to do with this failure is BS; so is claiming that GM did the 'right thing' to keep costs down.
It would likely cost them as much or more in legal fees, than to do what is right, give you a new motor (or repair the damage) and make you a happy customer.
Now, in the unlikely event the damage was caused by the tune, then I wholeheartedly side with GM.
Whomever said this path was a 'waste of money' is dead wrong.
My 2008 Honda motorcycle developed engine damage as a result of excessive oil consumption.
The dealer tried to blame me stating I had incorrectly installed an aftermarket air-filter, which caused the damage, and Honda voided my warranty.
I retained competent counsel, and for a fraction of the cost of obtaining a new engine, Honda gave me a new motorcycle. I also made life difficult for the dealer at every opportunity.
Voiding a warranty for a tune, which in all likelihood had absolutely nothing to do with this failure is BS; so is claiming that GM did the 'right thing' to keep costs down.
It would likely cost them as much or more in legal fees, than to do what is right, give you a new motor (or repair the damage) and make you a happy customer.
Now, in the unlikely event the damage was caused by the tune, then I wholeheartedly side with GM.
Last edited by Newton06; 10-09-2009 at 08:41 AM.
10-09-2009, 08:47 AM
#174
Melting Slicks
I honestly can not believe that the OP heard the noise 3 weeks before the actual failure and did nothing, that being said the lifter failure has been well documented in our C6's.
I however bought the Vette with every intension of Modding it, I have Modded every car and truck that I've ever purchased, and I would never take any of my vehicles to the Dealer for service or Warranty work.
In other words if you can not do the work yourself of have a trusted freind do it, leave it ALONE!!!!
It's not going to get better, it will get worse!!
Good Luck
Just buy a crate engine and have it installed, have the dealer install it and remove all your mods, if you want GM Warranty.
I however bought the Vette with every intension of Modding it, I have Modded every car and truck that I've ever purchased, and I would never take any of my vehicles to the Dealer for service or Warranty work.
In other words if you can not do the work yourself of have a trusted freind do it, leave it ALONE!!!!
It's not going to get better, it will get worse!!
Good Luck
Just buy a crate engine and have it installed, have the dealer install it and remove all your mods, if you want GM Warranty.
10-09-2009, 08:57 AM
#175
Melting Slicks
Sorry to hear your pain.
Easy to say this in hindsight, but seems like it makes sense to leave a stock Vette alone unless you are willing to take responsibility for your actions.
I'm happy with my LS-3 as is, but I'm thinking that if you want a stronger engine than available from the factory, then get a used Vette that's already off warranty and then mod the heck out of it.
It might be more cost effective to go that route anyway.
Considering your situation, and that fact that you want a stronger engine anyway, mod it right away with the re-install.
Easy to say this in hindsight, but seems like it makes sense to leave a stock Vette alone unless you are willing to take responsibility for your actions.
I'm happy with my LS-3 as is, but I'm thinking that if you want a stronger engine than available from the factory, then get a used Vette that's already off warranty and then mod the heck out of it.
It might be more cost effective to go that route anyway.
Considering your situation, and that fact that you want a stronger engine anyway, mod it right away with the re-install.
10-09-2009, 08:59 AM
#176
Le Mans Master
I guess you didn't watch the DVD that came with your Corvette. There's a part on the DVD where one of the GM reps talks about the Z06. He talks about it being designed as a vehicle that you can take to the track with enough cargo room to carry your lawn chairs and cooler, race on the track all day, load up and drive home.
10-09-2009, 09:00 AM
#177
Safety Car
It does not mean I may not have a tune sometime in the future, but if I elect to have a tune, it will be with the fact that I will know that I will lose my powertrain warranty.
Last edited by j_digi454; 10-09-2009 at 09:03 AM.
10-09-2009, 09:04 AM
#178
Burning Brakes
10-09-2009, 09:09 AM
#179
Le Mans Master
Well fellow and gal vette owners.
Original story:
"My first and only new car which I personally ordered and waited for three months to be delivered has a blown engine. I have not been to a HPDE in over a year and a half. Only used for weekends and take girl out to dinner. 30K mi.
Car stared making metallic knock and missing real bad.
Chevy dealer has motor apart and tell me a lifter came apart and pieces of metal in oil. Chevy rep. wants motor removed and torn down and cam removed for further inspection. Not good.
This outcome will be sure interesting. "
GM has voided my warranty, (just like some of you said they would).
The dealer was wrong, Just left meeting with dealer service manager and service tech. I am all alone on this repair, needs new engine.
And I am responsible for cost of the tear down work to get to this dissapointing outcome.
GM product quality control requested a shap shot of the ECC, and of course there was the evidence of altered factory set points. GM rep sent me the bulletin of May 18, 09. which states. "Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at the time of sale...."
So my friends, and tuners beware.
-Tuners should advise customers that have factory warranty that performance tuning will VOID their warranty!
-If you have performance tune, and want drive train warranty work, have you car flshed back to factory specs. before you show dealer and GM you car.
Just burns my a$$ that I drove to this meeting in my 11 year old Ford F-150 with 230,578 hard driven, boat and horse hauling miles on it. And all I've done beside normal service was 1 serpantine belt and 1 O2 sensor. And my custom ordered vette with just 31k miles fell apart.
Original story:
"My first and only new car which I personally ordered and waited for three months to be delivered has a blown engine. I have not been to a HPDE in over a year and a half. Only used for weekends and take girl out to dinner. 30K mi.
Car stared making metallic knock and missing real bad.
Chevy dealer has motor apart and tell me a lifter came apart and pieces of metal in oil. Chevy rep. wants motor removed and torn down and cam removed for further inspection. Not good.
This outcome will be sure interesting. "
GM has voided my warranty, (just like some of you said they would).
The dealer was wrong, Just left meeting with dealer service manager and service tech. I am all alone on this repair, needs new engine.
And I am responsible for cost of the tear down work to get to this dissapointing outcome.
GM product quality control requested a shap shot of the ECC, and of course there was the evidence of altered factory set points. GM rep sent me the bulletin of May 18, 09. which states. "Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at the time of sale...."
So my friends, and tuners beware.
-Tuners should advise customers that have factory warranty that performance tuning will VOID their warranty!
-If you have performance tune, and want drive train warranty work, have you car flshed back to factory specs. before you show dealer and GM you car.
Just burns my a$$ that I drove to this meeting in my 11 year old Ford F-150 with 230,578 hard driven, boat and horse hauling miles on it. And all I've done beside normal service was 1 serpantine belt and 1 O2 sensor. And my custom ordered vette with just 31k miles fell apart.
z51vett