bterwilliger

I"ve been following all the PAL installs, and prior to buying mine read from 5+ posters that A) PAL will work in an 05 with the radio FW upgrade allowing the Nav to display full song info, and B) PAL will work without XM.

Now the rubber is meeting the road. I ordered my PAL from Gene and did the bulk of the install today. Because I don't have XM, I had the following question halfway through the install:

Since I don't have XM, I don't have the wire above the dead pedal to cut out of a harness and splice to the PAL wire. I assume this will not be a problem, as this splice pack is only for XM as I understand it. Anyone install yet without doing this? I haven't even looked to see if the splice pack is there (probably not...).

Other than that connection, my install is DONE. BUT, I don't have the softkey on the Nav screen. MANY posters have said that a FW change to enable XM is required to see the PAL. Has ANYONE done this? There are lots of I thinks and I heards, but is there any firsthand experience?

If there is nothing concrete, I will call my dealer on Monday and see what they know - I'll post back as soon as I can confirm it works or not.

bterwilliger

Anyone? Rather not have to get the dealer involved, or at least, be able to point them to a known solution.

DjCritterus

Gene is a good guy and I've read a lot of great stuff about him so please don't take the comments below as a slight (sp?) towards him. I'm positive he could start you in the right direction if you contact him or his business

I hate to say this but I bought the install kit from Best Buy that has the IPOD adapter and the headphone adapter. It's plug and play into the back of the stereo, works through the touch screen interface, and, IIRC, it didn't plug into the XM input.

Also, try posting this in the audio section

dpat1

I have also installed the PAL in my 05 without XM so I am interested in getting this issue figured out. The install was not too bad, I did not mess with the XM wire under the dash. I am planning to work with my mechanic who has a Tech II to see if we can get this to work. I’ll post if we are successful or not.

Dave

jbeidl

If you do not have XM, you do not have to mess with the wire in the Splice Block - saves you a lot of work.

However, a Tech II is required to program the PAL if you do not have XM. I don't know if GM has released the programming information yet. Check with your dealer to see if they have the information needed to program the PAL in a non XM Radio car.

The good news is the dealer does not have to do anything to your car other than connect the Tech II to the OBD II connector under the dash.

Let us know what you learn from your dealer.

Save The Wave,
John

bterwilliger

Excellent, thank you. Sounds like I have a line of questioning to pursue on Monday.

USAFAC6

I had the dealer install the PAL on my '05 w/o XM. Using the Tech II, the technician must select year 2008 (or newer), Y body, Personal Audio Link, and then toggle the digital radio setting (enable/disable, I don't remember which). After turning the car off and then back on, the source screen on should then have buttons along the left side that say FM1/2 and XM1/2. XM2 will be the input with the programmed PAL functions. The PAL operated seemingly normally.

*** The dealer, GM, and I got this far, but then...***

After two days I had trouble with a dead battery. After some quick trouble shooting back at the dealership, the tech's found that the PAL wasn't turning off after shutdown, and continued to keep the data link open with the rest of the car until the battery was dead as a doornail. Last I checked with GM, they are working on the software problem. Has anyone finished this install and avoided this battery calamity?

bterwilliger

Thanks USAFAC6, great info too.

I wonder if you can cut the default 12v supply to the PAL and have it on a separate switched 12v to avoid this (shut down as soon as the ignition is off).

LOUSVETTE

Haven't had this problem wiuth my '08

jbeidl

OK, take this for what it is worth as it is a SWAG (scientific wild a$$ guess).

I "think" most of the computer controlled devices in these cars have power all of the time and are put into "Sleep" mode when the car is turned off. When you press the "Start" button (or turn on RAP) the Body Control Module (BCM) wakes up the devices via the Class 2 bus, queries what devices are available and powers on those that are needed.

If you don't have power applied to a device when Start or RAP is pressed, the BCM will think the device is missing and you may not be able to us it even if you apply power at a latter time. So power sequencing could be important.

And yet another "SWAG". The PAL contains a relay to disconnect the Class 2 Bus from the XM radio when the PAL is selected. I "think" the normal state of this relay is not energized and the Class 2 Bus is connected to the XM Receiver. I suspect that when the Tech II is used to program the PAL to operate without an XM receiver present, this relay is energized while you are using the PAL. If for some reason the PAL does not see the power OFF signal on the Class 2 Bus, the relay could remain energized and drain the battery.

Again, all of the above is a SWAG and I could be way off base here.

We will have to see what GM comes back with as a solution for this problem. The good news is that it probably can be corrected by a firmware update that is performed with a Tech II.

Save The Wave,
John

jbeidl

I "think" this is only an issue in cars without XM. See my post #10 above.

Save The Wave,
John

bterwilliger

Call in to my dealer and GM customer service.

Now, does anyone have a copy of the schematics for the electrical system? Or, maybe even better, a model number for the factory XM receiver?

jbeidl

Yes, you have a Splice Pack, in fact you have two of them - one on the driver side and one on the passenger. The two splice packs are used to distribute the Class 2 signal to all devices that require this signal. All of the signals are "DOT" OR'ed together (no logic, just wires connected together). When a device needs to communicate it sends a pulse train on it's Class 2 wire with a minimum amplitude of 8 Volts.

Removing the wire from the splice pack removes the XM Receiver Class 2 signal from this "DOT" OR connection. A filtered Class 2 signal is generated within the PAL module for connection only to the XM Receiver. I "think" the purpose of this is to block Class 2 signals to the XM receiver whenever XM2 (PAL) is selected.

Save The Wave,
John

jbeidl

I do not have schematics for the 2005, but I do have them for the 2007, they are in the Service Manual. I don't know if GM has released a schematic for the PAL interconnection. I have drawn my own from an examination of the GM provided PAL cable. I have attached a PDF that should provide all of the information needed.

Save The Wave,
John

bterwilliger

John, thanks very much - very informative. What I don't get, is if that wire is just for the PAL to manage the XM comm with the headunit, what would cause the PAL without XM to drain the battery? Or are they totally unrelated and there is some other difference 2007 to 2005 that caused this issue?

jbeidl

That filtered XM Class 2 signal is switched by a relay inside of the PAL. I "think" the way it operates is that when you select XM2 (turn on the PAL), the relay is energized to remove the Class 2 signal going to the XM Radio. That is how I would have designed it if I was presented with that task. When you select any other source, the relay is not energized and the XM sees the normal Class 2 signal. This is a type of fail safe so that if something goes wrong with the PAL, there is still a good chance that XM will still work.

There is also an ARM processor in the PAL. I suspect that if the relay were left energized and the processor was not in sleep mode your battery would go down fairly quickly.

Here is another "SWAG" as to how I think things work. The PAL is always watching the Class 2 bus. When it sees an XM2 select on the Class 2 bus, it energizes the relay to disable Class 2 traffic to/from the XM Receiver. The PAL will now respond to any Class 2 traffic directed to the XM Receiver (mimic the XM Class 2 operation). The PAL will stay in this mode until a source other than XM2 is selected (the PAL is always monitoring all Class 2 traffic) or the car is shut down. If a source other than XM2 is selected, then the relay is no longer energized and Class 2 traffic flows to/from the XM Receiver but the PAL is still watching. I "think" the setting done with the TECH II directs the PAL to handle all XM traffic as if an XM receiver was actually installed. When the BCM checks for the XM Receiver, the PAL answers to fool the BCM.

The relay is not actually required in cars without XM. It is entirely possible that the setting done with the TECH II also disables the relay from being energized. I could only tell that by making measurements on the PAL PCB in a non XM equipped car, or by having access to the firmware running on the ARM processor (I don't think there is any chance of that happening).

Check to see if your iPod is also left on. Start the car with the iPod working and in view, then shut off the car and open and close the drivers door so the BCM thinks you have exited. The courtesy lights should dim and then turn off in about 30 seconds or so and the green light behind the start button should also go out. At this point I think the iPod will still be on, but it should also go off with a few minutes. If the iPod does not go off, that just adds to the problem.

Let us know how your iPod behaves in the shut down mode described above.

Save The Wave,
John

bterwilliger

Ok, listening today as I showed someone the install and I noticed that there is a constantly clicking relay in the PAL (every 1min or so) when the car is parked and totally off (not in RAP). That could cause a dead battery I imagine...

jbeidl

I don't know what the current drain is for the PAL and the relay used to filter Class 2 data to the XM radio, but I am sure given enough time it would drain the battery.

When this is happening, what is the state of the iPod? Is it completely off and not charging the battery?

I am not sure, but I think to make this check you will have to sit in the trunk and close the hatch and wait for a few minutes. Lots of things "Wake Up" when any door or the hatch is open.

Save The Wave,
John

kawal

I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but it sounds like there are a few owners here who have installed or want to install the PAL in a car without XM. In each of these cars, the PAL module MUST be reprogrammed with the Tech 2 to operate without XM - otherwise you will not see the XM softkeys on the Nav screen needed to operate the PAL.

Many dealers may not yet have the programming steps necessary for the Tech 2, but they are available to the dealers. Here is a link for the procedure:

http://www.kawal.net/noxm.doc

But there is still the issue of the battery being drained in cars without XM and the PAL installed with the above Tech 2 procedure. GM is working on that problem, but a solution has not yet been finalized.

Ray

dpat1

Well I got the car back from Scotty's today after having some other work done and having him get the system configured to see the PAL that I installed a few weeks ago. Everything with the PAL works just as advertised. The volume is a little less than the FM and CD but that can be dealt with by tweeking the songs on the ipod. The sound quality is fantastic! As good if not better than FM and equal to the CD player. There is still the issue of the ipod not shutting down so the potential to drain the battery is still there. Until GM comes up with a fix I am just unplugging the ipod if the car is going to sit for more than three or four hours. A small price to pay for a well integrated device that I have been waiting a long time for. So for those with an 05 without XM the system works and is well worth the effort to install. BTW I installed per the GM instructions but without messing with the splice pack.