Really need help/advice....very lengthy...
08-18-2009, 11:25 AM
#21
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Pensacola Florida GO GATORS!!! www.rlsebring.com www.c6c7vette.com
Posts: 11,216
Received 174 Likes
on
92 Posts
St. Jude Donor '17
altho I respect wayne's post and logic, hearing someone at the shop talk about putting a hole in every body part does not make me feel this is a quality operation. they may do great work, but this is not a shop that operates with integrity, not with that mindset and kind of statement.
My whole persona would have changed at this point. I would now know what my relationship with this business is. My car would have been out of that shop and legal battle begun. I am the nicest person in the world until that line is drawn in the sand.
08-18-2009, 11:52 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
Member Since: May 2006
Location: MN
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People seem to be forgetting something here - this was an INSURANCE work order. The insurance company is paying the bills here, with the OP paying for some stuff on top of that. What does the OP's insurance company say about all this? If the shop is submitting insurance claims to get paid, and the work isn't being done, the insurance company will come after them like the Four Horsemen. Talk to the insurance company first.
08-18-2009, 12:02 PM
#24
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
Posts: 46,111
Received 2,485 Likes
on
1,947 Posts
St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
People seem to be forgetting something here - this was an INSURANCE work order. The insurance company is paying the bills here, with the OP paying for some stuff on top of that. What does the OP's insurance company say about all this? If the shop is submitting insurance claims to get paid, and the work isn't being done, the insurance company will come after them like the Four Horsemen. Talk to the insurance company first.
Am I missing some sentence/paragraph?
08-18-2009, 12:06 PM
#25
Racer
Member Since: May 2005
Location: pensacola fl
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you don't need a lawyer for this. get an estimate or two from other shops. get your insurance company involved. ask the shop what is up with the rental car.
for 2300, you can go to small claims court and get this worked out if the time comes. armed with the other estimates, whatever they charge you over that amount MAY be paid back to you by them. if the estimates all come back very close to what you are paying, your only other beef will be the time frame. that probably isn't worth taking to small claims court. just tell them you are frustrated and they should make it up to you. they probably will. but definitely get your car back even if they aren't done by your due date. you said you paid them in advance, so if they aren't done they cannot keep your car. if they do, immediately file a claim in small claims court. even without your documentation the facts should fall into place. good luck.
for you serving our country. my brother in law just finished his second deployment and is looking forward to civilian life.
for 2300, you can go to small claims court and get this worked out if the time comes. armed with the other estimates, whatever they charge you over that amount MAY be paid back to you by them. if the estimates all come back very close to what you are paying, your only other beef will be the time frame. that probably isn't worth taking to small claims court. just tell them you are frustrated and they should make it up to you. they probably will. but definitely get your car back even if they aren't done by your due date. you said you paid them in advance, so if they aren't done they cannot keep your car. if they do, immediately file a claim in small claims court. even without your documentation the facts should fall into place. good luck.
for you serving our country. my brother in law just finished his second deployment and is looking forward to civilian life.
08-18-2009, 12:06 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
Never pay ANY MONEY towards labor before you pick up your car. Your car is the deposit. And for parts, try to only pay 50% in advance. Make sure you have a contract with them that clearly spells out what they are doing for you, and what the charges are. It should also have completion dates on it.
Best advice in this thread so far. Never pay for labor up front and pay as little for parts as possible. If both parties still need something out of the deal then it's more likely to stay on course. If the shop gets all their money there's no incentive to work on the car etc.
Now $2,300 isn't a bad deal if there's paint and body work going on. I don't know a shop that can afford to do paint and body work for $1,000. Going in you should know that you should double your original budget just in case. If they did $1,000 worth of work and the job needed more, they should have notified you of the issues and received approval before proceeding.
You could always pay with an Amex and get the car. As soon as you drive off with it dispute the charges. This will of course, flush any relationship with the shop down the drain and should only be used as a last ditch effort.
08-18-2009, 12:29 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
I Hope you can get it resolved and get your car back. The comment about drilling holes in each panel shows you just how "legit" this shop is. The proper legal response was "well we could put a lein on your car and auction it off" or something.
You need to get your car out of there ASAP - they obviously can't keep their word, and are childish if they threaten damage. If they feel the need to drill holes in someone's car, does that mean you now have the right to set their shop on fire due to endless delays?
On the topic of them deducting the rental from your final bill, I wouldn't trust that because all they would do is add an extra couple of hours to the bill to get out from losing any money.
You need to get your car out of there ASAP - they obviously can't keep their word, and are childish if they threaten damage. If they feel the need to drill holes in someone's car, does that mean you now have the right to set their shop on fire due to endless delays?
On the topic of them deducting the rental from your final bill, I wouldn't trust that because all they would do is add an extra couple of hours to the bill to get out from losing any money.
08-18-2009, 12:31 PM
#28
Intermediate
Member Since: Aug 2009
Location: Buckhannon WV
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must be missing it, MN, I don't see insurance anywhere in the posts by OP other than para. 2 of the first post where he said he's dropping some of his coverage while deployed. And from the tone of his paying for it all, it sounds as if there was a claim he was paid for it and is paying for all of it, including whatever was reimbursed by insurance.
Am I missing some sentence/paragraph?
Am I missing some sentence/paragraph?
As some of you may remember I hit a semi tire Last October. Well instead of just "fixing" what was broke I opted to go for a full customization.
i think that is the statement they are referring to
08-18-2009, 04:49 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08
The part i paid was about 7k and now they are saying it is over 16k for the work. Just curious, but when a shop does an estimate and gives you a time frame...can they breech that? can they just charge whatever they feel then and take how ever long. I mean technically the final bill is more than the original estimate, even though they are only asking me for 2300.
08-18-2009, 04:59 PM
#30
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
Posts: 46,111
Received 2,485 Likes
on
1,947 Posts
St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
in my opinion, yes they can. they can exceed the estimate; they can take longer; they can require you to pay up even with no documentation. and they can manufacture documentation after the fact and you can't prove otherwise.
remember that thing about possession being 9/10ths of the law? they've got your car. that's possession.
you have no contract. you have little to nothing in writing except a very old estimate.
unfortunately, no one, yourself included, stayed on top of this with weekly visits to the shop to check on progress, parts, labor, etc. in short, you now have a mess.
unless you want to pay the full boat which I think you're going to have to anyway, you'll need to spend more money and get a lawyer. maybe you can get away cheaply with a lawyer, some letters on legal letterhead, etc., but I doubt it.
as I thought, the only insurance money and company involved was already paid out to you, and their hands are now washed of the whole rebuild. it's all on you now. sorry to say, it's decision time.
remember that thing about possession being 9/10ths of the law? they've got your car. that's possession.
you have no contract. you have little to nothing in writing except a very old estimate.
unfortunately, no one, yourself included, stayed on top of this with weekly visits to the shop to check on progress, parts, labor, etc. in short, you now have a mess.
unless you want to pay the full boat which I think you're going to have to anyway, you'll need to spend more money and get a lawyer. maybe you can get away cheaply with a lawyer, some letters on legal letterhead, etc., but I doubt it.
as I thought, the only insurance money and company involved was already paid out to you, and their hands are now washed of the whole rebuild. it's all on you now. sorry to say, it's decision time.
08-18-2009, 05:04 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08
I'm not sure what a "full customization" is but with any custom work estimates most often escalate and delays are commonplace. I've experienced delays on several occasions simply because a vendor forgot a part or sent the wrong part. All shops have to prioritize their work and with you not being around you were a lower priority.
I don't know the full story or the extent of the work but after 6.5 months you'd think the job would be done. I'd also question their lack of documentation...most shops log their labor and materials. I think you need to consider how much you value your relationship with the shop and to what extent they're discounting the work for you.
My friend had a custom street rod done at a very high-end and expensive shop. The work took over 14 months and cost in excess of $110,000. When it was done the final bill exceeded their estimate by a quite-a-bit. My friend could have held them to the estimated price but he didn't...he realized the additional costs were legitimate and the quality of workmanship was impeccable. Not wanting to screw the shop or jeopardize his relationship with them, he paid the overage which was over $10K.
At this point (and after 6+ months) what's the status of the car? I'd find out exactly what remains to be done and nail down how long it should take to finish. Again, IMO a lot depends on how much you value your ongoing relationship with the shop and how much they're discounting the work for you. If they said they're paying for the rental car, I'd hold them to it. Have them call the rental car agency and arrange for payment. If they're paying for your rental car that should motivate them to wrap things up. As for the overage, I'd be fair about it. I'd pay them their legitimate costs in the project, however, if you pay for the rental car I'd tell them you're deducting the rental car costs from the final bill. Good luck!
I don't know the full story or the extent of the work but after 6.5 months you'd think the job would be done. I'd also question their lack of documentation...most shops log their labor and materials. I think you need to consider how much you value your relationship with the shop and to what extent they're discounting the work for you.
My friend had a custom street rod done at a very high-end and expensive shop. The work took over 14 months and cost in excess of $110,000. When it was done the final bill exceeded their estimate by a quite-a-bit. My friend could have held them to the estimated price but he didn't...he realized the additional costs were legitimate and the quality of workmanship was impeccable. Not wanting to screw the shop or jeopardize his relationship with them, he paid the overage which was over $10K.
At this point (and after 6+ months) what's the status of the car? I'd find out exactly what remains to be done and nail down how long it should take to finish. Again, IMO a lot depends on how much you value your ongoing relationship with the shop and how much they're discounting the work for you. If they said they're paying for the rental car, I'd hold them to it. Have them call the rental car agency and arrange for payment. If they're paying for your rental car that should motivate them to wrap things up. As for the overage, I'd be fair about it. I'd pay them their legitimate costs in the project, however, if you pay for the rental car I'd tell them you're deducting the rental car costs from the final bill. Good luck!
This is my problem. They sat on my car and didn't work and took in other insurance claims to make the money. then my car doesn't get done, and now they want more money on top of that. Even one of there own employees told me they sat on the car and didn't work it.
08-18-2009, 05:05 PM
#32
Racer
Member Since: May 2005
Location: pensacola fl
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes that is where the insurance part came into play. I did do a claim and that body shop did the estimate of stuff. I opted to have my insurance company cut me a check for the amount of this. The rest of the stuff is coming out of my pocket. No insurance after that point. I got about 11k for the claim and spent about 8-10k on parts. The rest of the labor and shop materials is on me.
The part i paid was about 7k and now they are saying it is over 16k for the work. Just curious, but when a shop does an estimate and gives you a time frame...can they breech that? can they just charge whatever they feel then and take how ever long. I mean technically the final bill is more than the original estimate, even though they are only asking me for 2300.
The part i paid was about 7k and now they are saying it is over 16k for the work. Just curious, but when a shop does an estimate and gives you a time frame...can they breech that? can they just charge whatever they feel then and take how ever long. I mean technically the final bill is more than the original estimate, even though they are only asking me for 2300.
just because they have your car doesn't mean you don't have rights.
08-18-2009, 05:07 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08
in my opinion, yes they can. they can exceed the estimate; they can take longer; they can require you to pay up even with no documentation. and they can manufacture documentation after the fact and you can't prove otherwise.
remember that thing about possession being 9/10ths of the law? they've got your car. that's possession.
you have no contract. you have little to nothing in writing except a very old estimate.
unfortunately, no one, yourself included, stayed on top of this with weekly visits to the shop to check on progress, parts, labor, etc. in short, you now have a mess.
unless you want to pay the full boat which I think you're going to have to anyway, you'll need to spend more money and get a lawyer. maybe you can get away cheaply with a lawyer, some letters on legal letterhead, etc., but I doubt it.
as I thought, the only insurance money and company involved was already paid out to you, and their hands are now washed of the whole rebuild. it's all on you now. sorry to say, it's decision time.
remember that thing about possession being 9/10ths of the law? they've got your car. that's possession.
you have no contract. you have little to nothing in writing except a very old estimate.
unfortunately, no one, yourself included, stayed on top of this with weekly visits to the shop to check on progress, parts, labor, etc. in short, you now have a mess.
unless you want to pay the full boat which I think you're going to have to anyway, you'll need to spend more money and get a lawyer. maybe you can get away cheaply with a lawyer, some letters on legal letterhead, etc., but I doubt it.
as I thought, the only insurance money and company involved was already paid out to you, and their hands are now washed of the whole rebuild. it's all on you now. sorry to say, it's decision time.
really sux that they can just do whatever cause they have your car now, though!
08-18-2009, 05:11 PM
#34
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Pensacola Florida GO GATORS!!! www.rlsebring.com www.c6c7vette.com
Posts: 11,216
Received 174 Likes
on
92 Posts
St. Jude Donor '17
There's not a magic bullet here. Sounds to me like all in all the best course of action and the least painful would be to sit down with them and lay out a plan and then be on them like stink on poop. Do not pay anymore money until completed. Unfortunately they will not finish until they finish. Refusing to pay anymore until completed will give them a carrot to go after. Hold their feet to the fire to a certain degree.
The only other option is to sue them, get a judgment then try and collect that judgment. Nothing you can say or do in court will get you anything better than a judgment. The court will not force them to pay the money only make it a court order to pay. It's up to you to collect by what ever means.
The only other option is to sue them, get a judgment then try and collect that judgment. Nothing you can say or do in court will get you anything better than a judgment. The court will not force them to pay the money only make it a court order to pay. It's up to you to collect by what ever means.
08-18-2009, 05:12 PM
#35
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
Posts: 46,111
Received 2,485 Likes
on
1,947 Posts
St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Well my wife did go a couple times a month sometimes weekly and asked them why they weren't working on it, and i would ask them this also. They of course can say whatever to us though, cause like you said we are not there daily to check on it.
really sux that they can just do whatever cause they have your car now, though!
really sux that they can just do whatever cause they have your car now, though!
08-18-2009, 05:22 PM
#36
Safety Car
Next time you talk to them, use a hidden digital recorder ( they are like 50 to 60 bucks). You might be able to fish out some good stuff. I always use it for car squabbles. I needed it once...
08-18-2009, 05:26 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08
There's not a magic bullet here. Sounds to me like all in all the best course of action and the least painful would be to sit down with them and lay out a plan and then be on them like stink on poop. Do not pay anymore money until completed. Unfortunately they will not finish until they finish. Refusing to pay anymore until completed will give them a carrot to go after. Hold their feet to the fire to a certain degree.
The only other option is to sue them, get a judgment then try and collect that judgment. Nothing you can say or do in court will get you anything better than a judgment. The court will not force them to pay the money only make it a court order to pay. It's up to you to collect by what ever means.
The only other option is to sue them, get a judgment then try and collect that judgment. Nothing you can say or do in court will get you anything better than a judgment. The court will not force them to pay the money only make it a court order to pay. It's up to you to collect by what ever means.
I am staring to think i have to just bite the bullet on this one and pay them to get my car back. Pay them after it is done of course. maybe then and only then I can try and renegotiate cause i will have the car then....
08-18-2009, 05:28 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08
I "heard" that if you go to court with something like that they have to know about or is is not allowed as evidence. I did think about this since I threatened using emails i no longer have.
08-18-2009, 05:41 PM
#39
Also, unless a "time is of the essence" provision is part of the contract and damages for that delay contemplated, it may be difficult to make a claim on the fact the work was delayed.
The fact that you don't have a written contract does not mean you didn't have a valid contract - it just makes it more difficult to prove what the terms and conditions of that contract were.
08-18-2009, 06:14 PM
#40
Safety Car
In some states it is unlawful to record a conversation unless both parties know the recording is being made.
Also, unless a "time is of the essence" provision is part of the contract and damages for that delay contemplated, it may be difficult to make a claim on the fact the work was delayed.
The fact that you don't have a written contract does not mean you didn't have a valid contract - it just makes it more difficult to prove what the terms and conditions of that contract were.
Also, unless a "time is of the essence" provision is part of the contract and damages for that delay contemplated, it may be difficult to make a claim on the fact the work was delayed.
The fact that you don't have a written contract does not mean you didn't have a valid contract - it just makes it more difficult to prove what the terms and conditions of that contract were.
