Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6...
12-26-2001, 01:05 PM
#1
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Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6...
I was reading a book called "Corvette: An American Classic" by Dan Lyons and John F. Katz, and I was reading the chapter on the C4 and there's a quote by David R. McClellan (Corvette chief engineer) that explains the philosophy behind the C4:
"If something that is uniquely a Corvette characteristic is worth doing, then it is worth doing better than anybody else... If the car is supposed to go fast, for example, it might as well go faster than anything else... I'd be the first one to admit that at times we've compromisedthe ride quality of the Corvette as a passenger car to achieve a handling objective..."
I believe that most of the people who own Corvettes wish the 'vette were true to that philosophy. However, Dave Hill seems to think in different terms, which I believe are more practical, though they will not make the the Corvette the car of choice when you're playing Gran Turismo 4 on your Playstation 3 in a few years. I suspect that the Viper will still hold the throne as the "king of the hill" because it targets the audience GM has to ignore when trying to sell in the volumes needed to make the Corvette a profitable brand.
I do think GM had better be careful about making performance a secondary concern with the new generation of pocket rockets coming out of Japan (Subaru WRX STi and Mitsu Lancer Evo VII) pushing close to 300hp from cars that are small and have AWD. It simply won't do to have a $50,000 Corvette be "threatened" off the line by a $25,000 import... but I suspect that in the next 3-4 years, we'll see a WRX or Lancer that can run with today's stock C5s.
(if any are still stock, that is :lol: )
So, performance-wise, I suspect that they will up the ante in terms of power. They are going to need 400hp as a baseline for the C6, and I would suspect that we'll see refinements in size (I expect it to be slightly smaller) and weight (I think just under 3000 lbs. is doable, though I don't know if that will happen with a bigger engine).
Stylistically, I think we'll see something that is more aggressive than the C5, perhaps with more blatant curves and edges. The C5 still looks futuristic next to "edgy" designs, even though it has softer cues. I suspect that the next Corvette will exaggerate the styling cues a notch in order to make the car more stunning visually.
So my call:
2005 C6 Coupe
405+ hp (it would have to beat today's Z06 in it's base form)
3000 lbs. even for weight (original goal of the C5 project)
upgraded interior (Dave Hill's competition is the Boxster and the Z3, not the Viper)
Sticker price will probably be around $45,000 for a coupe.
My question to everyone is: would you buy one of these if Subaru and Mitsubish are making rally cars for the masses? Are we destined to wind up like Boxster owners who have a great car, but not one that is the "best at anything" that it does?
[Modified by flipm, 11:06 AM 12/26/2001]
"If something that is uniquely a Corvette characteristic is worth doing, then it is worth doing better than anybody else... If the car is supposed to go fast, for example, it might as well go faster than anything else... I'd be the first one to admit that at times we've compromisedthe ride quality of the Corvette as a passenger car to achieve a handling objective..."
I believe that most of the people who own Corvettes wish the 'vette were true to that philosophy. However, Dave Hill seems to think in different terms, which I believe are more practical, though they will not make the the Corvette the car of choice when you're playing Gran Turismo 4 on your Playstation 3 in a few years. I suspect that the Viper will still hold the throne as the "king of the hill" because it targets the audience GM has to ignore when trying to sell in the volumes needed to make the Corvette a profitable brand.
I do think GM had better be careful about making performance a secondary concern with the new generation of pocket rockets coming out of Japan (Subaru WRX STi and Mitsu Lancer Evo VII) pushing close to 300hp from cars that are small and have AWD. It simply won't do to have a $50,000 Corvette be "threatened" off the line by a $25,000 import... but I suspect that in the next 3-4 years, we'll see a WRX or Lancer that can run with today's stock C5s.
(if any are still stock, that is :lol: )
So, performance-wise, I suspect that they will up the ante in terms of power. They are going to need 400hp as a baseline for the C6, and I would suspect that we'll see refinements in size (I expect it to be slightly smaller) and weight (I think just under 3000 lbs. is doable, though I don't know if that will happen with a bigger engine).
Stylistically, I think we'll see something that is more aggressive than the C5, perhaps with more blatant curves and edges. The C5 still looks futuristic next to "edgy" designs, even though it has softer cues. I suspect that the next Corvette will exaggerate the styling cues a notch in order to make the car more stunning visually.
So my call:
2005 C6 Coupe
405+ hp (it would have to beat today's Z06 in it's base form)
3000 lbs. even for weight (original goal of the C5 project)
upgraded interior (Dave Hill's competition is the Boxster and the Z3, not the Viper)
Sticker price will probably be around $45,000 for a coupe.
My question to everyone is: would you buy one of these if Subaru and Mitsubish are making rally cars for the masses? Are we destined to wind up like Boxster owners who have a great car, but not one that is the "best at anything" that it does?
[Modified by flipm, 11:06 AM 12/26/2001]
12-26-2001, 04:00 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (flipm)
Performance has been and always will be high on the Corvette team's design criteria.
The Corvette team missed the mark with the C5 in terms of pricing. They can deliver the killer interior and shattering performance owners crave but the design/engineering team is not sure where the price point should be. Corvette buyers have demonstrated that $40K is not it.
They have demonstrated this with the following:
1. The sheer sales volume
2. The majority of cars go out the door fully loaded or very close to it
3. The more expensive convertibles sell out every year (equipped as above)
4. The Z06 has been a sales success
5. All indicators are that demand for the Z06 would eclipse the “regular” car if the upgrade package were offered on the coupe and convertible
6. The considerable sums C5 owners spend yearly on aftermarket enhancements
The Z06 is where the coupe should have been introduced both from a power and price standpoint. The C6 should be engineered such that its base price is $50K. That would enable GM to include all the requisite go fast bits and then some. They could then turn around and sell 20,000 - 25,000 units of this car instead of the 30,000 units which have helped dilute the car's prestige by putting one on every corner :mad They would still turn a considerable profit as I believe 10,000 units was the original yearly sales target for the C5.
Rumor has it that the car will get smaller as Lutz is keen on the thoughts and preferences of the Europeans. This is a terrible idea and will hurt the car's road presence. I have seen a number of RX7's on the road, supercars in their day. Next to a Vette they look like toy cars. Odd that the Europeans who grumble about the Vette's size see nothing wrong with the gargantuan dimensions of the Ferrari 550 Maranello and Lamborghini Diablo. They also say nothing of the fact that the 360 Modena is wider than a Vette. I wonder if Americans complained about the diminutive 911 if Porsche would look to upsize that car :rolleyes:
If the Vette team drops the ball I will be off to my Viper dealer where they make no apologies for American design, heritage and style.
The Corvette team missed the mark with the C5 in terms of pricing. They can deliver the killer interior and shattering performance owners crave but the design/engineering team is not sure where the price point should be. Corvette buyers have demonstrated that $40K is not it.
They have demonstrated this with the following:
1. The sheer sales volume
2. The majority of cars go out the door fully loaded or very close to it
3. The more expensive convertibles sell out every year (equipped as above)
4. The Z06 has been a sales success
5. All indicators are that demand for the Z06 would eclipse the “regular” car if the upgrade package were offered on the coupe and convertible
6. The considerable sums C5 owners spend yearly on aftermarket enhancements
The Z06 is where the coupe should have been introduced both from a power and price standpoint. The C6 should be engineered such that its base price is $50K. That would enable GM to include all the requisite go fast bits and then some. They could then turn around and sell 20,000 - 25,000 units of this car instead of the 30,000 units which have helped dilute the car's prestige by putting one on every corner :mad They would still turn a considerable profit as I believe 10,000 units was the original yearly sales target for the C5.
Rumor has it that the car will get smaller as Lutz is keen on the thoughts and preferences of the Europeans. This is a terrible idea and will hurt the car's road presence. I have seen a number of RX7's on the road, supercars in their day. Next to a Vette they look like toy cars. Odd that the Europeans who grumble about the Vette's size see nothing wrong with the gargantuan dimensions of the Ferrari 550 Maranello and Lamborghini Diablo. They also say nothing of the fact that the 360 Modena is wider than a Vette. I wonder if Americans complained about the diminutive 911 if Porsche would look to upsize that car :rolleyes:
If the Vette team drops the ball I will be off to my Viper dealer where they make no apologies for American design, heritage and style.
12-26-2001, 07:59 PM
#3
Racer
Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (Bwright)
I would just like to take a moment and say that these 2 first posts are excellent. Both you two
gentlemen have done an excellent job of analyzing the importance of performance with relates to
size and power. Out of all the C6 posts I have read, not one has been as concise and well written as you
two individuals have done. I want to commend you both. As a previous owner of a Acura NSX and a 99 Corvette
Coupe I understand the differences in the automobiles nature. Although I love a midengine high rpm car, what
makes the corvette so special is the power and torque, if GM can get the interior quality materials up and push
the performance envelope up a bit further I think they would have another winner on their hands. Just my thoughts.
gentlemen have done an excellent job of analyzing the importance of performance with relates to
size and power. Out of all the C6 posts I have read, not one has been as concise and well written as you
two individuals have done. I want to commend you both. As a previous owner of a Acura NSX and a 99 Corvette
Coupe I understand the differences in the automobiles nature. Although I love a midengine high rpm car, what
makes the corvette so special is the power and torque, if GM can get the interior quality materials up and push
the performance envelope up a bit further I think they would have another winner on their hands. Just my thoughts.
12-27-2001, 12:51 PM
#4
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Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (Senna1994)
From the rumors, it looks like Chevy is giving just as much emphasis on
improving performance for the C6 over the C5 as the C5 over the C4.
With the start C5 we got a 345 HP LS1 vs the 330 HP LT4 and also
a significantly better chassis to put the power to the pavement.
With the C6 rumored 405 HP we are getting a bigger jump in power
and displacement 6.0 vs 5.7 for even more room to increase at the start
of the new model but handling improvements will not be as dramatic.
improving performance for the C6 over the C5 as the C5 over the C4.
With the start C5 we got a 345 HP LS1 vs the 330 HP LT4 and also
a significantly better chassis to put the power to the pavement.
With the C6 rumored 405 HP we are getting a bigger jump in power
and displacement 6.0 vs 5.7 for even more room to increase at the start
of the new model but handling improvements will not be as dramatic.
12-28-2001, 01:42 AM
#5
Le Mans Master
GM is not sleeping.
Rest assured, GM is not sleeping at the wheel. Corvette will not be bested by a production rally-inspired car.
Corvette gives up less than a hundred pounds to the Subaru WRX. It will be two years before the 300hp versions make it here; by then Corvette will be knocking on 400hp. And let's not forget the breadth of the powerband. Corvette has it, high-pressure small-displacement turbo motors not so much.
C6 will almost certainly cost more and include more base equipment than C5 did at its introduction. But a $50,000 starting point is a mistake. Corvette is appealing because it is attainable by the motivated common man. It can't afford to move too far upmarket.
Thirty thousand Corvettes a year is a GOOD thing. News flash: Corvette has NEVER been exclusive, and it NEVER will be. It is a Chevrolet. Many people give it respect begrudgingly and only then because of its world-class performance, but there is a limit on what people will pay for a Corvette no matter how good it is. And in the big picture the difference between 20,000 and 30,000 cars a year means instead of seeing 4 a month you'll see 3 a month. If you want exclusive, buy a Ferrari.
Corvette is a performance car. GM knows this. GM also knows that you don't make the car any more powerful than it has to be to sell. We don't have a 400hp base C5 only because a 350hp base C5 continues to be competitive (Germany's hottest $50k convertibles still can't best it) and sells all they can make at a healthy profit. If tomorrow Ford built a Cobra with anywhere near 375 lb-ft of torque you can bet the 2003 Corvette would come with 400. Remember, bumping the power every year burns you -- customers learn to wait instead of buying, depreciation is worse which affects leasing and scares off some buyers.
Corvette is not getting smaller. (A couple of inches off the ends is not getting smaller.) It might get LIGHTER, but packaging efficiency is about as good as it's going to get, and if they lose the interior's comfort and utility they lose their market. If you want a cozy V8, buy a Miata conversion.
Corvette character is not about to change. It will always have more power, better handling, more room, and more road presence than anything in its price range. It will always be within reach of many. It will always compete with or exceed the performance level of exotic cars costing two and three times as much.
And a certain number of Corvette owners will complain that it's not good enough.
.Jinx
2001 navy coupe
Corvette gives up less than a hundred pounds to the Subaru WRX. It will be two years before the 300hp versions make it here; by then Corvette will be knocking on 400hp. And let's not forget the breadth of the powerband. Corvette has it, high-pressure small-displacement turbo motors not so much.
C6 will almost certainly cost more and include more base equipment than C5 did at its introduction. But a $50,000 starting point is a mistake. Corvette is appealing because it is attainable by the motivated common man. It can't afford to move too far upmarket.
Thirty thousand Corvettes a year is a GOOD thing. News flash: Corvette has NEVER been exclusive, and it NEVER will be. It is a Chevrolet. Many people give it respect begrudgingly and only then because of its world-class performance, but there is a limit on what people will pay for a Corvette no matter how good it is. And in the big picture the difference between 20,000 and 30,000 cars a year means instead of seeing 4 a month you'll see 3 a month. If you want exclusive, buy a Ferrari.
Corvette is a performance car. GM knows this. GM also knows that you don't make the car any more powerful than it has to be to sell. We don't have a 400hp base C5 only because a 350hp base C5 continues to be competitive (Germany's hottest $50k convertibles still can't best it) and sells all they can make at a healthy profit. If tomorrow Ford built a Cobra with anywhere near 375 lb-ft of torque you can bet the 2003 Corvette would come with 400. Remember, bumping the power every year burns you -- customers learn to wait instead of buying, depreciation is worse which affects leasing and scares off some buyers.
Corvette is not getting smaller. (A couple of inches off the ends is not getting smaller.) It might get LIGHTER, but packaging efficiency is about as good as it's going to get, and if they lose the interior's comfort and utility they lose their market. If you want a cozy V8, buy a Miata conversion.
Corvette character is not about to change. It will always have more power, better handling, more room, and more road presence than anything in its price range. It will always be within reach of many. It will always compete with or exceed the performance level of exotic cars costing two and three times as much.
And a certain number of Corvette owners will complain that it's not good enough.
.Jinx
2001 navy coupe
12-28-2001, 10:45 AM
#6
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Re: GM is not sleeping.
Jinx: >> Corvette has NEVER been exclusive <<
True. However, I think GM can do a lot better, without significantly raising the price. Personally I want a car with some distinction. It's one of the factors in my decision to move to an NSX. The C5 lost any sense of exclusivity after the first 3 years. Now it really hurts when someone can pay 20k for 97', and only a Vette lover can tell it from a 50k Z06.
I agree with you, building a $50k base car is not the answer. How about a face-lift every 3-4 years, w/ an engine upgrade. Other than wheels, the C5 has gone unchanged since inception. When GM upped the HP to 350, throwing in some fixed HID headlights, and a butt lift would have gone a long way in getting more press, and improving the satisfaction of new buyers.
True. However, I think GM can do a lot better, without significantly raising the price. Personally I want a car with some distinction. It's one of the factors in my decision to move to an NSX. The C5 lost any sense of exclusivity after the first 3 years. Now it really hurts when someone can pay 20k for 97', and only a Vette lover can tell it from a 50k Z06.
I agree with you, building a $50k base car is not the answer. How about a face-lift every 3-4 years, w/ an engine upgrade. Other than wheels, the C5 has gone unchanged since inception. When GM upped the HP to 350, throwing in some fixed HID headlights, and a butt lift would have gone a long way in getting more press, and improving the satisfaction of new buyers.
12-28-2001, 11:31 AM
#7
Melting Slicks
Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (Senna1994)
:cheers:
12-28-2001, 03:32 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Re: GM is not sleeping. (Jinx)
If a $50K starting point is a mistake then perhaps you can explain why GM sells every Z06 and Corvette convertible they make. While you're at it you can also explain why almost 90% of C5 coupes go out the door fully loaded plus tax which in effect makes them $50K cars. Any idea why Ecklers and Mid-America do tens of millions of dollars a year in business on C5 upgrades?
The fact is that given the way new Corvette and aftermarket parts sales are currently going, pricing the car at $50K would simply be bringing it in line with reality. Attainability by the common man is a relative concept. Given that the average salary of a C5 owner is $100,000, more than twice the national average, I would hardly describe them as the "common man." Corvettes also generally necessitate having a second car due to their relatively limited utility as far as passenger capacity and bad weather. Two car households are not as common as you might think especially when the second car is a supercar.
While pricing is a key factor in the Corvette's longevity the current price point is demonstrably incorrect. Even at $50K its closest competitor, the next generation Viper, is said to be coming to market at $75K, a 50% increase over where 90% of Vettes go out the door. Non competitive cars like the standard 911, Lotus and NSX's are $65K, and $84K respectively at sticker, base. This means that even at $50K the Corvette would be a bargain especially when one considers that the current Z06 has been proven twice to take down a 911 Turbo on a track and can put a 20 car plus lead on a Ferrari 360 Modena at the 1 mile mark. The Z06 can in fact match fenders with a 550 Maranello. This is one of the reasons I have not purchased a Ferrari. Thanks for the suggestion though. The others are that no sports car extant, including Ferrari, can match the Corvette's 50-year heritage or the advances in technology that it demonstrates.
Corvettes have always been relatively exclusive cars. 30,000 units may not seem like a lot in a world in which Ford sells 15,000 plus F150's per week and Honda and Toyota sell over 8,000 Accords and Camrys in the same time frame, but for a supercar this is a lot. Corvette outsells Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Acura's NSX, Lotus and Aston Martin combined. While the extreme exclusivity demonstrated by some of these marques is not what Corvette is currently about 30,000 units was not what even GM planned for. As Dave Hill has said they will stop building the car when they start having to offer rebates to sell them. Given this, you always want to be on the low side of sales so you do not put yourself at risk of excess inventory or production capacity. An effective way to trim sales is not to arbitrarily cut back production but rather to increase the price, not gratuitously but through increased content. This helps keeps the car true to its performance mandate. The Z06 matches what Corvette owners want as far as performance but the cost of the upgrades helped, in part, dictate its price.
While we're talking performance here's a news flash for you: Ford builds a Mustang with 385hp and 385lb.-ft. of torque. It's called the SVT Cobra R. Car & Driver tested it against a Z06 and a Viper about a year ago. The Z06 won.
Here's another flash: The primary constraints on Corvette's power level is not what GM thinks won't make it "any more powerful than it has to be to sell." The reasons are in fact twofold. The first is that GM mandates that no car they sell will have a gas guzzler tax. The C5R engine makes 670-700hp. It would be fairly easy to make a C5 with a 445-500hp engine. Virtually every competitor for the C5 simply ramps up the power and passes on the resultant tax to the buyer. The second is the point of this discussion, price. The car is engineered to a low price point and so key technologies, performance, safety and otherwise are left out.
Several examples are:
1. Side impact airbags. you can get these in a Civic. They would add about $500 to the cost. Put a price on your life if these happen to save it.
2. HID lights which would easily better the poor units currently fitted. Expect a $1,000 addition as the current laws mandate self-leveling and cleaning systems. As above for relative price if they happen to help you see and avoid something which might have killed or seriously injured you.
3. Rollover protection for the Convertible. Self explanatory.
4. Automatic convertible top. This should be standard in the Convertible. They have this on Honda's cheaper S2000. It's omission on the C5 which is a league beyond it is unacceptable. Expect $2K-3K up on price for the convertible.
5. Upgraded interior quality. Expect a $1K - $1,500 increase.
6. Optional ceramic brakes. Remember I said optional. Expect to pay $4k for those. Think that's a lot? Porsche sells them for $8K. They are expected to last the life of the car. Calculate the relative cost of brake changes for an owner over the life of the car and see which one comes out ahead. Ceramics are also 1/2 the weight of comparable disc brakes. Think of the performance and lifetime fuel savings of this advance when doing your calculations.
7. Electrohydraulic brakes or brake-by-wire. The elimination of the mechanical systems now in place will not only provide significant weight savings but allow more precise system controls as realized by the throttle-by-wire system currently employed on the C5. You don't even want to hear what that might cost.
Corvette does indeed have more power, better handling, more room, and more road presence than anything in its price range. It will also always be within reach of many, though this has to be considered a relative term given the pool of people looking for that type of performance. It will indeed also always compete with or exceed the performance level of exotic cars costing two and three times as much.
Despite all this there will always be some who say it costs too much now and projected. OK. We can build a $20K car and put the Corvette name on it. Wonder what would they suggest we decontent first?
The fact is that given the way new Corvette and aftermarket parts sales are currently going, pricing the car at $50K would simply be bringing it in line with reality. Attainability by the common man is a relative concept. Given that the average salary of a C5 owner is $100,000, more than twice the national average, I would hardly describe them as the "common man." Corvettes also generally necessitate having a second car due to their relatively limited utility as far as passenger capacity and bad weather. Two car households are not as common as you might think especially when the second car is a supercar.
While pricing is a key factor in the Corvette's longevity the current price point is demonstrably incorrect. Even at $50K its closest competitor, the next generation Viper, is said to be coming to market at $75K, a 50% increase over where 90% of Vettes go out the door. Non competitive cars like the standard 911, Lotus and NSX's are $65K, and $84K respectively at sticker, base. This means that even at $50K the Corvette would be a bargain especially when one considers that the current Z06 has been proven twice to take down a 911 Turbo on a track and can put a 20 car plus lead on a Ferrari 360 Modena at the 1 mile mark. The Z06 can in fact match fenders with a 550 Maranello. This is one of the reasons I have not purchased a Ferrari. Thanks for the suggestion though. The others are that no sports car extant, including Ferrari, can match the Corvette's 50-year heritage or the advances in technology that it demonstrates.
Corvettes have always been relatively exclusive cars. 30,000 units may not seem like a lot in a world in which Ford sells 15,000 plus F150's per week and Honda and Toyota sell over 8,000 Accords and Camrys in the same time frame, but for a supercar this is a lot. Corvette outsells Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Acura's NSX, Lotus and Aston Martin combined. While the extreme exclusivity demonstrated by some of these marques is not what Corvette is currently about 30,000 units was not what even GM planned for. As Dave Hill has said they will stop building the car when they start having to offer rebates to sell them. Given this, you always want to be on the low side of sales so you do not put yourself at risk of excess inventory or production capacity. An effective way to trim sales is not to arbitrarily cut back production but rather to increase the price, not gratuitously but through increased content. This helps keeps the car true to its performance mandate. The Z06 matches what Corvette owners want as far as performance but the cost of the upgrades helped, in part, dictate its price.
While we're talking performance here's a news flash for you: Ford builds a Mustang with 385hp and 385lb.-ft. of torque. It's called the SVT Cobra R. Car & Driver tested it against a Z06 and a Viper about a year ago. The Z06 won.
Here's another flash: The primary constraints on Corvette's power level is not what GM thinks won't make it "any more powerful than it has to be to sell." The reasons are in fact twofold. The first is that GM mandates that no car they sell will have a gas guzzler tax. The C5R engine makes 670-700hp. It would be fairly easy to make a C5 with a 445-500hp engine. Virtually every competitor for the C5 simply ramps up the power and passes on the resultant tax to the buyer. The second is the point of this discussion, price. The car is engineered to a low price point and so key technologies, performance, safety and otherwise are left out.
Several examples are:
1. Side impact airbags. you can get these in a Civic. They would add about $500 to the cost. Put a price on your life if these happen to save it.
2. HID lights which would easily better the poor units currently fitted. Expect a $1,000 addition as the current laws mandate self-leveling and cleaning systems. As above for relative price if they happen to help you see and avoid something which might have killed or seriously injured you.
3. Rollover protection for the Convertible. Self explanatory.
4. Automatic convertible top. This should be standard in the Convertible. They have this on Honda's cheaper S2000. It's omission on the C5 which is a league beyond it is unacceptable. Expect $2K-3K up on price for the convertible.
5. Upgraded interior quality. Expect a $1K - $1,500 increase.
6. Optional ceramic brakes. Remember I said optional. Expect to pay $4k for those. Think that's a lot? Porsche sells them for $8K. They are expected to last the life of the car. Calculate the relative cost of brake changes for an owner over the life of the car and see which one comes out ahead. Ceramics are also 1/2 the weight of comparable disc brakes. Think of the performance and lifetime fuel savings of this advance when doing your calculations.
7. Electrohydraulic brakes or brake-by-wire. The elimination of the mechanical systems now in place will not only provide significant weight savings but allow more precise system controls as realized by the throttle-by-wire system currently employed on the C5. You don't even want to hear what that might cost.
Corvette does indeed have more power, better handling, more room, and more road presence than anything in its price range. It will also always be within reach of many, though this has to be considered a relative term given the pool of people looking for that type of performance. It will indeed also always compete with or exceed the performance level of exotic cars costing two and three times as much.
Despite all this there will always be some who say it costs too much now and projected. OK. We can build a $20K car and put the Corvette name on it. Wonder what would they suggest we decontent first?
12-30-2001, 11:37 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (flipm)
I'm voting for Bwright over Dave Hill in the next Vette Head Honcho election.
:cheers:
:cheers:
12-31-2001, 12:03 AM
#10
Team Owner
Re: GM is not sleeping. (Bwright)
Attainability by the common man is a relative concept. Given that the average salary of a C5 owner is $100,000, more than twice the national average, I would hardly describe them as the "common man."
I would also like to state that the "average" Corvette owner's income can be nowhere near $100,000 .... I would guess that for most Vette owners.. the car is probably 1 years pay....
Granted in New York $100,000 is not "worth" as much as $100,000 in Cleveland... but my firm has offices in both... but starting in Cleveland is $60,000 and in NYC its about $83,000...
I lived in NYC for 3 months... and for what my brother pays for Rent, Insurance and daily expenses for an apartment...(around $4,000 per month) ... I could live in one of Clevelands best apartments.... yet he lives in a middle class environment....
The $100,000 would be a good assumption for the Bigger Cities, NYC, LA, Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Houston , Dallas....etc.... but for the rest of us its not..... but since your cost of living is SOOOOO much higher... its sort of evens out in every way except automobile purchases... :D
12-31-2001, 03:30 AM
#11
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Re: GM is not sleeping. (Bwright)
I am with Bwright: I want Corvette to be the leader in performance for all but the most exotic (F60, Buggati, etc.). I think this will mean either "optional" engines or models as there are many that still want the price point car.
For GM to reach these goals in a 2004 C6, GM needs: enhanced exterior styling; HID; Brembo Brakes; better Interior; at least 500hp.
It will be interesting to see what GM does... .
For GM to reach these goals in a 2004 C6, GM needs: enhanced exterior styling; HID; Brembo Brakes; better Interior; at least 500hp.
It will be interesting to see what GM does... .
12-31-2001, 06:06 AM
#12
Le Mans Master
Re: GM is not sleeping. (Bwright)
If a $50K starting point is a mistake then perhaps you can explain why GM sells every Z06 and Corvette convertible they make.
While you're at it you can also explain why almost 90% of C5 coupes go out the door fully loaded plus tax which in effect makes them $50K cars.
Any idea why Ecklers and Mid-America do tens of millions of dollars a year in business on C5 upgrades?
How much of that C5 upgrade money is significant interior quality or power improvements, and how much is exhaust plates and chrome letters and bras and Z06-red engine beauty covers?
Corvettes also generally necessitate having a second car due to their relatively limited utility as far as passenger capacity and bad weather. Two car households are not as common as you might think especially when the second car is a supercar.
This means that even at $50K the Corvette would be a bargain especially when one considers that the current Z06...
While the extreme exclusivity demonstrated by some of these marques is not what Corvette is currently about 30,000 units was not what even GM planned for.
As Dave Hill has said they will stop building the car when they start having to offer rebates to sell them. Given this, you always want to be on the low side of sales so you do not put yourself at risk of excess inventory or production capacity.
While we're talking performance here's a news flash for you: Ford builds a Mustang with 385hp and 385lb.-ft. of torque. It's called the SVT Cobra R. Car & Driver tested it against a Z06 and a Viper about a year ago. The Z06 won.
Here's another flash: The primary constraints on Corvette's power level is not what GM thinks won't make it "any more powerful than it has to be to sell." The reasons are in fact twofold. The first is that GM mandates that no car they sell will have a gas guzzler tax.
The second is the point of this discussion, price. The car is engineered to a low price point and so key technologies, performance, safety and otherwise are left out.
Side impact airbags. you can get these in a Civic. A Civic that was designed years after C5, and was designed to include them. C6 will probably have them.
HID lights which would easily better the poor units currently fitted. C6 will have these, optional, because they'll make more profit that way and keep the base car cost down.
Rollover protection for the Convertible. Self explanatory. Doesn't increase the cost of the coupe; fine with me.
Automatic convertible top. I think GM was hoping retro simplicity and weight reduction would be effective cover for this cheapskate move. I bet C6 doesn't repeat this mistake. See previous point.
Upgraded interior quality. Expect a $1K - $1,500 increase. In a pig's eye. The cost will increase a couple hundred bucks, tops. This amounts to wrapping more interior pieces like they did the dashboard and using better leather on the seats. They'll probably rip willing customers for $1,500 in an interior option package, though.
Optional ceramic brakes. Sounds great, as long as it's not tied to a twelve-speaker sound system upgrade and heated seats. Again, as an option this does nothing to increase the base cost.
Electrohydraulic brakes or brake-by-wire. Not gonna happen with C6. There's leading edge, and then there's bleeding edge. GM is not going to be first to market with this technology. They'll let the Germans stick their necks out in Europe first where people aren't so sue-happy. C7.
Despite all this there will always be some who say it costs too much now and projected. OK. We can build a $20K car and put the Corvette name on it. Wonder what would they suggest we decontent first?
.Jinx
12-31-2001, 12:29 PM
#13
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Re: GM is not sleeping. (Bwright)
4. Automatic convertible top. This should be standard in the Convertible. They have this on Honda's cheaper S2000. It's omission on the C5 which is a league beyond it is unacceptable. Expect $2K-3K up on price for the convertible.
2) Manual tops cost less. Everyone likes that.
3) The manual top on the C5 is simply wonderful. It can be operated more quickly than any automatic that I know of, and you can even do it without getting out of the car.
Why in the world would you want to change that? The only thing an automatic top gives you is more weight and a higher price tag. Buy a Lexus if you want luxury, a Vette is supposed to be about performance. If they pork up the C6 'vert with an auto top I'll save my money and buy a used C5.
12-31-2001, 02:12 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Re: GM is not sleeping. (Jinx)
Last time I checked the base cost of a Z06 was $50K and a Convertible was $48K. This is neither significantly different nor does it require fudging numbers. Those two cars account for roughly 60% of annual Corvette sales. As even Corvette's engineers have admitted a large proportion of both the Coupe and Convertible buyers, The former about a third of buyers, have asked when they can expect the Z06 performance package to become available on the Coupe and Convertible. Dave Hill said no as it would negatively impact the car's fuel use. More on this later.
So if two thirds of Vettes have a $50K base to start and a large portion of the remaining third are not only going out the door loaded but buyers of both that car and the Convertible are asking for the Z06 package then how is a $50K base price a stretch? They sell every Corvette they make because the car is underpriced to start. A $50K base price for a well-equipped Vette brings the car in line with the reality of what owners are paying now and drops the marketing pretense of the base car's price. Virtually nobody buys such a Corvette. Ask any dealer.
If someone does not want to pay additional funds for a fully loaded Vette from $50K then fine. Don't order the options. At $50K the no pretense car would be well-equipped with everything that is now optional and a few things that were never made available. For those that want the options that could be made available for additional funds, go for it. The trouble now is that Corvette buyers are not even given a choice of such options.
Yes Mugen does a significant amount of business on aftermarket parts for Hondas and Acuras. However, a fair comparison cannot be made between the aftermarket business for the vast amount of those cars and Mid America's relatively small C5 Corvette business. And yes, you will find a considerable number of Honda and Acura owners who are spending their money at Mugen who will complain about the available content on their cars.
How much of the C5 money is spent on which upgrade is only part of the question. A single exhaust system or set of tires encompasses quite a few exhaust plates, chrome letters and bras and Z06-red engine beauty covers. The better question, whose answer has already been given by Corvette buyers, is what are owners prepared to pay now for an OEM car equipped the way they want it. A lot of C5 owners have more than enough money to buy aftermarket performance parts but do not want the inherent warranty and logistical headaches of ordering and installing them.
Using your neck of the woods to extrapolate to the country is illogical. The numbers back this up. IRS data indicates that fully 80% of this country's tax filing citizens makes $15K-$72K. I would be happy to send the data to you. While it is technically possible that a family in this income range can purchase two cars where one costs $30K cost and the additional is 50% more it is unlikely that they will take that sort of financial risk on a pair of depreciating assets especially if they have kids and a mortgage. The remaining 20% of the country is neither solidly middle class nor representative of it. Fact is Corvette buyers, yourself included whether you believe it or not, are necessarily a financial cut above the population at large.
No the base coupe and convertible cannot take a 911TT or Modena but that's not because they need to be cheaper it is because GM will not put the Z06 package in those cars. Dave Hill specifically said the resultant weight increase would tip them into gas-guzzler territority and this is not allowed by current GM policy. Buyers want it, GM will not give it to them. No other supercar maker handicaps themselves like this.
Regular production of 30,000 units is indeed a happy accident. GM never planned for that and has to run the factory at the ragged edge of capacity to keep from falling seriously behind demand. The reason you can afford to stay on the relatively high side of cost is that the market for luxury goods cannot be compared to the market for other goods. All economic indicators point to current lean times. Go ahead and try to get on the order list for a Murcielago, Viper SRT/10, Aston Martin Vanquish or any Ferrari. Ask Porsche how they did this year. Check GM's sales of the Corvette.
Threats to the C5 do exist now and worse is projected. The SLK32AMG, of all cars, managed to put a devastating lead on a Vette in a recent test. Don't idly threaten BMW's M5 sedan or Mercedes' E55 AMG on the street. Trust me. Upcoming treats next year will include the 478hp SL55 and Porsche is hard at work on a V8 engine for the standard 911 so as to leave the 6-cylinder duties to the Boxster.
While we're talking threats, trying to gauge the SVT Cobra's impact on the Corvette through sales figures misses part of the point about performance cars. If your performance credentials fall beneath that of a comparable OEM car from another manufacturer then it is time to raise the bar.
Yes, retrofitting the C5 with some of the advances I referred to is indeed presposterous which is why I never said they should. I simply suggested that they should have been included in the first place. The C5 could have been designed with those advances at the outset but GM was not convinced that owners would stomach the price. They also wanted to bring the car to market with a price that would technically be below $40K in 1997. This bit of timidity and marketing gamesmanship cost owners content which it is indeed preposterous to try and rectify now.
A couple hundred bucks for an interior upgrade :eek: ?! If it were that cheap they would have done it a long time ago. Fact is, a bespoke interior with parts unique to one limited production car becomes expensive quickly. If GM is thinking of genuine aluminum or carbon fiber trim then the cost increase will be more than a couple hundre bucks.
I agree on the ceramic brakes.
The electro-hydraulic brakes are out in Europe on the next generation SL and will be here in less than a year. GM's considerable ability to spread such a system cost over Cadillac for example should put such a system in the C6.
No you should not have your arm twisted into buying Connolly hides over heated twelve-way power seats and dozens of electronic dashboard toys. That was never my recommendation. All of my suggestions were either performance, as I do realize that comes first, or safety related.
A $45K C6 with 400hp? Perhaps. But I do firmly believe and the available sales data seems to support that a lot of Corvette buyers would like to see a 450 - 500hp C6 generously equipped at $50K with a few options.
So if two thirds of Vettes have a $50K base to start and a large portion of the remaining third are not only going out the door loaded but buyers of both that car and the Convertible are asking for the Z06 package then how is a $50K base price a stretch? They sell every Corvette they make because the car is underpriced to start. A $50K base price for a well-equipped Vette brings the car in line with the reality of what owners are paying now and drops the marketing pretense of the base car's price. Virtually nobody buys such a Corvette. Ask any dealer.
If someone does not want to pay additional funds for a fully loaded Vette from $50K then fine. Don't order the options. At $50K the no pretense car would be well-equipped with everything that is now optional and a few things that were never made available. For those that want the options that could be made available for additional funds, go for it. The trouble now is that Corvette buyers are not even given a choice of such options.
Yes Mugen does a significant amount of business on aftermarket parts for Hondas and Acuras. However, a fair comparison cannot be made between the aftermarket business for the vast amount of those cars and Mid America's relatively small C5 Corvette business. And yes, you will find a considerable number of Honda and Acura owners who are spending their money at Mugen who will complain about the available content on their cars.
How much of the C5 money is spent on which upgrade is only part of the question. A single exhaust system or set of tires encompasses quite a few exhaust plates, chrome letters and bras and Z06-red engine beauty covers. The better question, whose answer has already been given by Corvette buyers, is what are owners prepared to pay now for an OEM car equipped the way they want it. A lot of C5 owners have more than enough money to buy aftermarket performance parts but do not want the inherent warranty and logistical headaches of ordering and installing them.
Using your neck of the woods to extrapolate to the country is illogical. The numbers back this up. IRS data indicates that fully 80% of this country's tax filing citizens makes $15K-$72K. I would be happy to send the data to you. While it is technically possible that a family in this income range can purchase two cars where one costs $30K cost and the additional is 50% more it is unlikely that they will take that sort of financial risk on a pair of depreciating assets especially if they have kids and a mortgage. The remaining 20% of the country is neither solidly middle class nor representative of it. Fact is Corvette buyers, yourself included whether you believe it or not, are necessarily a financial cut above the population at large.
No the base coupe and convertible cannot take a 911TT or Modena but that's not because they need to be cheaper it is because GM will not put the Z06 package in those cars. Dave Hill specifically said the resultant weight increase would tip them into gas-guzzler territority and this is not allowed by current GM policy. Buyers want it, GM will not give it to them. No other supercar maker handicaps themselves like this.
Regular production of 30,000 units is indeed a happy accident. GM never planned for that and has to run the factory at the ragged edge of capacity to keep from falling seriously behind demand. The reason you can afford to stay on the relatively high side of cost is that the market for luxury goods cannot be compared to the market for other goods. All economic indicators point to current lean times. Go ahead and try to get on the order list for a Murcielago, Viper SRT/10, Aston Martin Vanquish or any Ferrari. Ask Porsche how they did this year. Check GM's sales of the Corvette.
Threats to the C5 do exist now and worse is projected. The SLK32AMG, of all cars, managed to put a devastating lead on a Vette in a recent test. Don't idly threaten BMW's M5 sedan or Mercedes' E55 AMG on the street. Trust me. Upcoming treats next year will include the 478hp SL55 and Porsche is hard at work on a V8 engine for the standard 911 so as to leave the 6-cylinder duties to the Boxster.
While we're talking threats, trying to gauge the SVT Cobra's impact on the Corvette through sales figures misses part of the point about performance cars. If your performance credentials fall beneath that of a comparable OEM car from another manufacturer then it is time to raise the bar.
Yes, retrofitting the C5 with some of the advances I referred to is indeed presposterous which is why I never said they should. I simply suggested that they should have been included in the first place. The C5 could have been designed with those advances at the outset but GM was not convinced that owners would stomach the price. They also wanted to bring the car to market with a price that would technically be below $40K in 1997. This bit of timidity and marketing gamesmanship cost owners content which it is indeed preposterous to try and rectify now.
A couple hundred bucks for an interior upgrade :eek: ?! If it were that cheap they would have done it a long time ago. Fact is, a bespoke interior with parts unique to one limited production car becomes expensive quickly. If GM is thinking of genuine aluminum or carbon fiber trim then the cost increase will be more than a couple hundre bucks.
I agree on the ceramic brakes.
The electro-hydraulic brakes are out in Europe on the next generation SL and will be here in less than a year. GM's considerable ability to spread such a system cost over Cadillac for example should put such a system in the C6.
No you should not have your arm twisted into buying Connolly hides over heated twelve-way power seats and dozens of electronic dashboard toys. That was never my recommendation. All of my suggestions were either performance, as I do realize that comes first, or safety related.
A $45K C6 with 400hp? Perhaps. But I do firmly believe and the available sales data seems to support that a lot of Corvette buyers would like to see a 450 - 500hp C6 generously equipped at $50K with a few options.
12-31-2001, 07:03 PM
#15
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Re: GM is not sleeping. (WallyWest)
3) The manual top on the C5 is simply wonderful. It can be operated more quickly than any automatic that I know of, and you can even do it without getting out of the car.
12-31-2001, 08:51 PM
#16
Team Owner
Re: GM is not sleeping. (Bwright)
Using your neck of the woods to extrapolate to the country is illogical. The numbers back this up. IRS data indicates that fully 80% of this country's tax filing citizens makes $15K-$72K. I would be happy to send the data to you. While it is technically possible that a family in this income range can purchase two cars where one costs $30K cost and the additional is 50% more it is unlikely that they will take that sort of financial risk on a pair of depreciating assets especially if they have kids and a mortgage. The remaining 20% of the country is neither solidly middle class nor representative of it. Fact is Corvette buyers, yourself included whether you believe it or not, are necessarily a financial cut above the population at large.
A $45K C6 with 400hp? Perhaps. But I do firmly believe and the available sales data seems to support that a lot of Corvette buyers would like to see a 450 - 500hp C6 generously equipped at $50K with a few options.
A $45K C6 with 400hp? Perhaps. But I do firmly believe and the available sales data seems to support that a lot of Corvette buyers would like to see a 450 - 500hp C6 generously equipped at $50K with a few options.
You are right that for most ... MOST.. Corvette owners the Vette is not their first car ... and if it is then you may be able to afford the Vette on the low end of the the 15K-72K range...
But the Corvette has alway been marketed as an "affordable" Supercar... and since the Camaro is gone for a few years... more people my look at the Vette....
12-31-2001, 11:40 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (flipm)
You've started a pretty good discussion flipm. The debate is very entertaining, but really boils down to our internal concept of what the Corvette is, what the C6 should be and what we would like in the way of value and price for the new 2004 model.
flipm wants a $45,000 coupe with 400 HP that is siightly smaller, lighter and more stunning visually.
Bwright wants to see a generously equipped, 450-500 HP coupe, priced at $50,000 with few options. It appears that he believes that this will reduce sales volume to the 20,000 to 25,000 unit range and boost the car's prestige. The new design should retain the good old American design, heritage and style.
Jinx thinks that a $50,000 starting point is a mistake (must say that I agree). He feels that the Vette has more power, better handling, more room and road presence than anything in it's price range, and that GM will balance the features, horsepower, handling and technology to provide better competitive value in its price range. He's looking for a $45,000 C6 coupe with 400 HP (sounds good to me).
Mako wants enhanced exterior styling, HID, Brembo Brekes, better interior and at least 500 HP
All this is purely academic and makes for interesting debate, but what really counts is what is coming out of GM. Below are a few condenced comments by Dave Hill in an artical in the Cleveland Plain Dealer on 12/27/01:
The essence of a Corvette is balanced performance, unexpected riding comfort for long trips, and an exciting visual statement.
The C6 will have an upgraded platform. It will be a tweaked C5 platform and not a radical recomfiguration.
C5 owners love performance and roominess, distinctiveness af the car and the power to pass anything on the road.
Need to upgrade the interior
Add features to remove the driving drudgery without removing the driving fun.
Will continue to have the best, non-intrusive, skid control system,,, meaning faster commumications around the car between the chassis and powertrain
By the way Hill says he's partial to the Boxster as a pretty lovable car that does quite a lot of thing well.
The full text of the comments can be found at: http://cleveland.com/autos/plaindeal...54101247591.xm
My own feeling on the C6 is that it will be improved in many functional and visual areas, all to the betterment of the Corvette name and its visual sex appeal. I think it will be slightly smaller on the outside, but the same roominess on the inside, there will be improvement in the interior appointments and trim and better passenger features, ergonomics and comfort, the weight should be down by about 150 pounds and the HP up to the Z06 range for the coupe and vert., on the technical side, I think that we will see improvements in the brakes(nothing revelotionary), suspension, and the electronics (such as the skid control system).To cover a broad price market , I think that the base coupe and vert will have a long list of options, as they do now, so that the $45,000 base price (a very well equipped Coupe)could go out the door in the $55,000 range.
When the Z06 surfaces, or what ever they are going to call the next "performance" model, this is when we start to see a more expensive and technically oriented performance vehicle with more improvements in horsepower, weight reduction, and handeling. It will be targeted toward the people who perfer performance driving over everything else, which is a fairly small percentage of total Corvette buyers, although the discussions on the Corvette Forum tend to convence us that all Vette Buyers are primarily interested only in performance.
The bottom line is that GM will engineer and deliver a "best bang for the buck car" over a broad range and continue to provide more"Value" than its competition throughout the range of prices.
:D :D
flipm wants a $45,000 coupe with 400 HP that is siightly smaller, lighter and more stunning visually.
Bwright wants to see a generously equipped, 450-500 HP coupe, priced at $50,000 with few options. It appears that he believes that this will reduce sales volume to the 20,000 to 25,000 unit range and boost the car's prestige. The new design should retain the good old American design, heritage and style.
Jinx thinks that a $50,000 starting point is a mistake (must say that I agree). He feels that the Vette has more power, better handling, more room and road presence than anything in it's price range, and that GM will balance the features, horsepower, handling and technology to provide better competitive value in its price range. He's looking for a $45,000 C6 coupe with 400 HP (sounds good to me).
Mako wants enhanced exterior styling, HID, Brembo Brekes, better interior and at least 500 HP
All this is purely academic and makes for interesting debate, but what really counts is what is coming out of GM. Below are a few condenced comments by Dave Hill in an artical in the Cleveland Plain Dealer on 12/27/01:
The essence of a Corvette is balanced performance, unexpected riding comfort for long trips, and an exciting visual statement.
The C6 will have an upgraded platform. It will be a tweaked C5 platform and not a radical recomfiguration.
C5 owners love performance and roominess, distinctiveness af the car and the power to pass anything on the road.
Need to upgrade the interior
Add features to remove the driving drudgery without removing the driving fun.
Will continue to have the best, non-intrusive, skid control system,,, meaning faster commumications around the car between the chassis and powertrain
By the way Hill says he's partial to the Boxster as a pretty lovable car that does quite a lot of thing well.
The full text of the comments can be found at: http://cleveland.com/autos/plaindeal...54101247591.xm
My own feeling on the C6 is that it will be improved in many functional and visual areas, all to the betterment of the Corvette name and its visual sex appeal. I think it will be slightly smaller on the outside, but the same roominess on the inside, there will be improvement in the interior appointments and trim and better passenger features, ergonomics and comfort, the weight should be down by about 150 pounds and the HP up to the Z06 range for the coupe and vert., on the technical side, I think that we will see improvements in the brakes(nothing revelotionary), suspension, and the electronics (such as the skid control system).To cover a broad price market , I think that the base coupe and vert will have a long list of options, as they do now, so that the $45,000 base price (a very well equipped Coupe)could go out the door in the $55,000 range.
When the Z06 surfaces, or what ever they are going to call the next "performance" model, this is when we start to see a more expensive and technically oriented performance vehicle with more improvements in horsepower, weight reduction, and handeling. It will be targeted toward the people who perfer performance driving over everything else, which is a fairly small percentage of total Corvette buyers, although the discussions on the Corvette Forum tend to convence us that all Vette Buyers are primarily interested only in performance.
The bottom line is that GM will engineer and deliver a "best bang for the buck car" over a broad range and continue to provide more"Value" than its competition throughout the range of prices.
:D :D
01-01-2002, 03:39 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
Re: GM is not sleeping. (Bwright)
Bwright, we don't agree and that's fine, but there are a couple of new points worth rebutting:
An exhaust system is not a performance upgrade to C5. People are buying it for the sound, not the performance. A year and a half of reading about exhaust upgrades here makes that clear. A chunk (I would say a significant minority, perhaps 25%) of Corvette owners would like a louder more rumbling exhaust. GM is too conservative to make big changes here, and that's a good thing. And most buyers don't "upgrade" their tires until they're worn out. So using aftermarket money spent on exhausts and tires as evidence that GM needs to spend thousands more on base Corvette performance is stretching it.
Interior: aluminum? By the time C6 hits the street aluminum will be passe. Anyway, most aluminum-look interiors are actually plastic.
Interior: carbon-fiber? I've said this before: carbon-fiber interior trim is one of the most retarded things I've ever heard of. The point of carbon-fiber is low weight and high strength. Race cars and exotics use it in structural members and body panels despite its expense because it's strong and light. A race car would have NO interior trim bits, not carbon-fiber interior trim bits! Carbon fiber is ugly, and if you liked the look, plastic that looks like carbon fiber works just as well without the cost. Carbon fiber interiors are tacky and pointless. And that look too will be passe by the time C6 hits the streets. I hope GM is smart enough to realize that.
C5 interior is cheap because the carpet is a little too thin, the floor mats are a little too flimsy, the seat leather is too stiff, the door pulls are a little too rubbery (though I'm okay with them) and the hard plastic used for the center console isn't rewarding to the eye or the hand. These are already bespoke pieces, so we're not talking about adding tooling costs where they don't exist now. We're talking a modest improvement in materials, and that's a few hundred bucks, not a couple grand.
I know it's not practical for durability reasons, but I wish the center console piece were painted to match the body :-) Of course this works better for some colors than others...
Black plastic is fine, so long as it's *good* plastic.
Cobra R was a race car available from Ford's in-house tuners. It does not indicate anything about Corvette's performance vulnerability. Is 350/375 enough for 2005? No. But C6 will have enough.
As for technology that should have been included in C5 in the first place, I think given the weakness of the sports car market when C5 was designed this is an unfair criticism. Especially when many of the things you mentioned were pie-in-the-sky things then and are only in the last two years "commodities."
I think our real problem is that Corvette sales are as strong as they are because the car is just too damn good for the price. Our expectations are raised to ZR1 levels.
It's only a matter of time before C6 hits a $50,000 base price for the coupe. But I think it should be nearer the end of its run, not the beginning.
In any case, this entire discussion is too late -- C6 must be so nearly locked in at this point that the fundamental base cost of the platform devoid of luxury silliness is unchangeable.
It's good to hold GM's feet to the fire, but I'm not going to say that C5 should have been designed to $45,000 or that C6 should be designed to $50,000 and 20,000 units a year.
But whatever it costs, I'll buy it. And whatever I buy will probably be as devoid of luxury as I can spec it.
.Jinx
2001 navy coupe, 1SA Z51 MN6 R8C only
An exhaust system is not a performance upgrade to C5. People are buying it for the sound, not the performance. A year and a half of reading about exhaust upgrades here makes that clear. A chunk (I would say a significant minority, perhaps 25%) of Corvette owners would like a louder more rumbling exhaust. GM is too conservative to make big changes here, and that's a good thing. And most buyers don't "upgrade" their tires until they're worn out. So using aftermarket money spent on exhausts and tires as evidence that GM needs to spend thousands more on base Corvette performance is stretching it.
Interior: aluminum? By the time C6 hits the street aluminum will be passe. Anyway, most aluminum-look interiors are actually plastic.
Interior: carbon-fiber? I've said this before: carbon-fiber interior trim is one of the most retarded things I've ever heard of. The point of carbon-fiber is low weight and high strength. Race cars and exotics use it in structural members and body panels despite its expense because it's strong and light. A race car would have NO interior trim bits, not carbon-fiber interior trim bits! Carbon fiber is ugly, and if you liked the look, plastic that looks like carbon fiber works just as well without the cost. Carbon fiber interiors are tacky and pointless. And that look too will be passe by the time C6 hits the streets. I hope GM is smart enough to realize that.
C5 interior is cheap because the carpet is a little too thin, the floor mats are a little too flimsy, the seat leather is too stiff, the door pulls are a little too rubbery (though I'm okay with them) and the hard plastic used for the center console isn't rewarding to the eye or the hand. These are already bespoke pieces, so we're not talking about adding tooling costs where they don't exist now. We're talking a modest improvement in materials, and that's a few hundred bucks, not a couple grand.
I know it's not practical for durability reasons, but I wish the center console piece were painted to match the body :-) Of course this works better for some colors than others...
Black plastic is fine, so long as it's *good* plastic.
Cobra R was a race car available from Ford's in-house tuners. It does not indicate anything about Corvette's performance vulnerability. Is 350/375 enough for 2005? No. But C6 will have enough.
As for technology that should have been included in C5 in the first place, I think given the weakness of the sports car market when C5 was designed this is an unfair criticism. Especially when many of the things you mentioned were pie-in-the-sky things then and are only in the last two years "commodities."
I think our real problem is that Corvette sales are as strong as they are because the car is just too damn good for the price. Our expectations are raised to ZR1 levels.
It's only a matter of time before C6 hits a $50,000 base price for the coupe. But I think it should be nearer the end of its run, not the beginning.
In any case, this entire discussion is too late -- C6 must be so nearly locked in at this point that the fundamental base cost of the platform devoid of luxury silliness is unchangeable.
It's good to hold GM's feet to the fire, but I'm not going to say that C5 should have been designed to $45,000 or that C6 should be designed to $50,000 and 20,000 units a year.
But whatever it costs, I'll buy it. And whatever I buy will probably be as devoid of luxury as I can spec it.
.Jinx
2001 navy coupe, 1SA Z51 MN6 R8C only
01-01-2002, 04:42 PM
#19
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Re: Why GM better put performance HIGH on it's list for the C6... (Jim 47)
You've started a pretty good discussion flipm. The debate is very entertaining, but really boils down to our internal concept of what the Corvette is, what the C6 should be and what we would like in the way of value and price for the new 2004 model.
flipm wants a $45,000 coupe with 400 HP that is siightly smaller, lighter and more stunning visually.
flipm wants a $45,000 coupe with 400 HP that is siightly smaller, lighter and more stunning visually.
Okay, but truth be told, I actually bought a 2002 Convertible for $53,000 with only 350 hp. :-)
What I'd "want" would be a car that has enough performance to spank contenders for a few years... so I'd like to see at least 405hp (today's Z06)
in the coupe for about $45,000. Convertibles would start at $52,000.
I'd really like to see them resurrect the ZR-1 designation and create a super-Vette for ~$75,000 that is basically the "king of the hill" that reuses everything the other models have (exterior, interior, etc...) but has been optimized for performance the way SVT does the Cobra R's. I think a GM "high performance" team let loose to do a factory "racer" like that would rock, and people would line up to get one. And at $75,000 it would be in the
same price range as the NSX, Viper, and 911, but have the benefit of sharing
parts with the "mass produced" 'vettes so that more could go into the racing characteristics.
The Z06 is an affordable race car. The ZR-1 was an aspirational, rare, sports car. While I myself would probably not be able to buy one -right now-, I want to see a ZR-1 class of Corvette come back into the fold if it is at all possible...
All this is purely academic and makes for interesting debate, but what really counts is what is coming out of GM. Below are a few condenced comments by Dave Hill in an artical in the Cleveland Plain Dealer on 12/27/01:
The essence of a Corvette is balanced performance, unexpected riding comfort for long trips, and an exciting visual statement.
The C6 will have an upgraded platform. It will be a tweaked C5 platform and not a radical recomfiguration.
C5 owners love performance and roominess, distinctiveness af the car and the power to pass anything on the road.
...except a 911 Twin Turbo or a Viper. :troll
Need to upgrade the interior
Add features to remove the driving drudgery without removing the driving fun.
Will continue to have the best, non-intrusive, skid control system,,, meaning faster commumications around the car between the chassis and powertrain
By the way Hill says he's partial to the Boxster as a pretty lovable car that does quite a lot of thing well.
The "fantasy" ZR-1 should be more Viper-like in its approach.
The full text of the comments can be found at: http://cleveland.com/autos/plaindeal...54101247591.xm
My own feeling on the C6 is that it will be improved in many functional and visual areas, all to the betterment of the Corvette name and its visual sex appeal. I think it will be slightly smaller on the outside, but the same roominess on the inside, there will be improvement in the interior appointments and trim and better passenger features, ergonomics and comfort, the weight should be down by about 150 pounds and the HP up to the Z06 range for the coupe and vert., on the technical side, I think that we will see improvements in the brakes(nothing revelotionary), suspension, and the electronics (such as the skid control system).To cover a broad price market , I think that the base coupe and vert will have a long list of options, as they do now, so that the $45,000 base price (a very well equipped Coupe)could go out the door in the $55,000 range.
When the Z06 surfaces, or what ever they are going to call the next "performance" model, this is when we start to see a more expensive and technically oriented performance vehicle with more improvements in horsepower, weight reduction, and handeling. It will be targeted toward the people who perfer performance driving over everything else, which is a fairly small percentage of total Corvette buyers, although the discussions on the Corvette Forum tend to convence us that all Vette Buyers are primarily interested only in performance.
The bottom line is that GM will engineer and deliver a "best bang for the buck car" over a broad range and continue to provide more"Value" than its competition throughout the range of prices.
:D :D
01-01-2002, 04:51 PM
#20
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Re: GM is not sleeping. (Jinx)
Rest assured, GM is not sleeping at the wheel. Corvette will not be bested by a production rally-inspired car.
I sincerely hope not... but realistically, I think that a mildly modded WRX STi would be fairly good competition at the track, though it wouldn't necessarily win a beauty pageant or have much pull with the ladies. :D
Corvette gives up less than a hundred pounds to the Subaru WRX. It will be two years before the 300hp versions make it here; by then Corvette will be knocking on 400hp. And let's not forget the breadth of the powerband. Corvette has it, high-pressure small-displacement turbo motors not so much.
True, true, true... I haven't run a current WRX yet, so I don't know how they hold up in their 227 hp form, but I'll say this... I had a Toyota MR-2 at 2100 lbs. try to sneak me recently, and with only 140 hp he kept up with me a lot better than I think he should have. Granted, I toyed with him too much off the line. :D
That said, in my life's "plan", my current 'vette is a bright yellow "cruiser". It's not meant to be a hardcore race car, so I don't mind if people try to run me, though I will go up to 143 mph if a Mercedes SL500 thinks he can run me on I-95 while I'm on the way to church. :reddevil However, my next car will hopefully be the C6 in "race trim", ready to run fast and hard and be my rod of correction for all the young pups who rice out their cars and want to run me in their Sentra Spec Vs, Civic Si's, and WRX's. :D
[Modified by flipm, 2:52 PM 1/1/2002]