Applying the parking brake if the car is traveling around a curve, sideways force, will indeed cause the rear end to swing out and fishtail. I agree.
But I was talking about if you were traveling forward in a straight line, then the rear wheels spin due to too much power to the wheels / loss of traction... the momentum of the car is forward in the original direction of the car... but now the rear of the car is sideways... I'd think that adding resistance to the rear end of the car (by applying the parking brake) would cause the rear to hang back and allow th-e front of the car (less resistance) to lead.
Example... take a toy car, lock the rear wheels only somehow, then slide the car randomly across a smooth floor... even put a little spin on it, send it skidding across the floor... as the car slides, eventually it will "straighten out", the front wheels will lead and the rear wheels will "drag" behind.
Again, just a thought.
HORRIBLE idea.
I guarantee you if you yank the handbrake at 60 miles an hour you WILL crash, even if the steering wheel is pointed perfectly straight. The car will almost always go into an uncontrollable swing and spin out because the back end is sliding.
Pulling the handbrake is about one of the stupidest things you can do in a car that is moving at a high rate of speed. It may be THE stupidest thing you can do, short of purposely aiming for a solid stationary object.
I certainly understand this view... hopefully no one here will take any posted "opinions" as gospel. Just meant as discussion.
Indeed the only way to truly figure out how to handle a C6 is to learn via hands-on experience whether just experimenting or going to a track school. I much look forward to going to a track school at some point, but this is not possible for me right now.
As I stated in my last post here, there is a good deal of general confusion in this thread due to lack of clarification of the original concern. For instance, in my original post, I referred to fishtailing due to too much throttle around a curve and also fishtailing due to too much throttle going straight... in one regard, similar events, but in fact very different. Direction of the car is very important. What you do to correct a fishtail in a turn will not be exactly the same as when correcting in a straight line.... and of course there are a host of other factors that need to be addressed per situation.
By the way I was not at all recommending using the parking brake... just posted that to spark more comments on how to bring the rear end back in line when fishtailing while originally headed STRAIGHT. Of course, pulling the parking brake while going around a CURVE will cause the rear end to spin out immediately. Doing so would make no sense.
But, for fishtailing when headed STRAIGHT... again, if you take a toy car, lock one axle, then send the toy car sliding along a floor, the car will automatically travel in a straight line, the free wheels leading, the locked wheels trailing... thus it does make at least a tiny bit of sense that if a car was spinning out of control while traveling fast, if you were to lock ONLY the rear wheels, eventually the car would "correct" itself and travel nose-first and straight. I guess this really doesn't apply in the real world though when you're trying to stay in a tight lane or between guardrails, etc. Just a point for discussion, NOT a recommendation.
Personally, I am not too worried about over-powering around curves because I'm generally careful enough not to do that. I've done it, but it's rare. There's never really a need to accelerate hard around a curve.
I'm more concerned with getting the car sideways while accelerating in a straight line due to having the rear wheels spin due to loss of traction. I've never had this problem on dry pavement in the warmer weather... but several times, while going at least 50 mph and accelerating in the cold weather, I've had the rear wheels break loose causing the rear end to start going sideways.
To those that think the rear should not go sideways while accelerating in a straight line: at least with a posi where both rear wheels spin together, the car WILL go sideways... it just does.
In the cold or wet, this type of thing can really catch you by surprise.. and before you know it, you're headed sideways, perhaps towards a guardrail. At slower speeds it's bad enough, but at 50+ mph, you could be looking at some serious damage / injury. Something to think about.
Some here don't seem to understand the situation I speak of... ok, let's say you're entering a freeway, you're starting from 35 mph, speed limit is 65 mph, there is a line of tractor trailers coming along doing 70+ mph, the road is cold and wet... you carefully plan your approach, you accelerate smoothly, but perhaps as you are trying to "squeeze" safely in between two tractor trailers, you need a bit more throttle... so you apply what is needed... suddenly you hear the rpms shoot up, rear wheels spinning, in the blink of an eye you're traveling a bit sideways... that's pretty much how it happens... so then WHAT do you do?
Because the C6 has so much low end torque, and because the Supercar tires perform so noticeably worse in the cold / wet, it is very easy for even an experienced driver to get "tricked" into a situation like this. So I am not really digging some of the "holier than thou" comments here from those who somehow assume that they can and will drive perfectly in all situations and are magically capable of avoiding excessively tricky, slippery situations which could include oil, ice, etc. If I could only count all the times I hit black ice at night on freeway entrance ramps, etc... I guess such could be avoided by simply not driving at all... there's one solution.
So back to the original concern, in the old days, with my old non-nany cars, if I started fishtailing a bit as in the above described freeway entrance ramp scenario, I'd let off the throttle and countersteer, the car would straighten and all would be fine. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles in my lifetime so far, many high-speed rain miles, plenty of snow and ice miles, plenty of New York City miles as well as open road high-speed interstate miles, tons of spirited hairy winding mountain road miles, I've NEVER been in any type of accident or damaged a car in any way... so, I'd say I'm at least decent at controlling old non-nanny cars.
It's the nanny cars I'm concerned about... like the C6. What "TMyers" had to say earlier in this thread really concerns me... that countersteering for instance fools the nannies and could make matters worse than if you did NOT countersteer...... and I don't know how in the heck I'd ever be able to keep myself from instantly countersteering in a slide... I hope there's an ejection seat too!!!
2 very easy solutions for your "problem"
1- Learn to drive your car in all conditions so you know how much throttle you can apply when, and know to be smooth with the gas pedal so you can catch wheel spin before it becomes excessive.
2- LEAVE A/H and T/C ON. GM didn't equip the car with them for no reason. In 2009 NO VEHICLE will receive a 5 star crash rating if it does not posess some form of active handling (commonly called "active accident avoidance). I don't care how good you are, no human being can sense loss of control and counteract it in 100 miliseconds. Your active handling system can.
In fact as a test I purposely nailed the throttle in standing water on a big parking lot to see what would happen. The tires instantly lost traction and the car began to slide sideways. Traction control cut power a moment later and I felt active handling correct the slide and bring the car back to pointing straight. I stayed on the gas and the two systems continuously fought to keep the car going straight. I don't think anyone could hold the gas pedal to the floor in standing water for that long and keep pointing straight, but with traction control and active handling you can.
Finally, this thread has some of the very worse suggestions I have ever seen in my life. Some of the comments here look like they were written by 12 year olds who think they can drive because they play gran tourismo 4. Jam on the brakes?? Pull the handbrake? For christ's sake!
Realize that you can't learn to drive by reading an internet forum, turn the computer off and go find out first hand what does happen when you lose control. The only way you will know what to do is if you have been through the situation before, and every situation is different and requires a different approach. The best thing I ever did as far as driving is concerned was get involved in autocrossing; for 20 bucks an event I got to drive my car as absolutely hard as I could, spin out, lose control oversteer, understeer, and there was never anything I could have hit that would damage it, other than soft rubber cones. Every time I lost control I learned something; I am by no means the best driver out there, but I can comfortably say that in every car I've autocrossed I learned what the car's limits were, how it felt as it approached those limits, and what it did once the limits were exceeded, and what to do to correct that. I also learned that some times you can't correct a slide; once a certain angle has been attained your front tires have no bite any more and all you can do is hit the brakes and wait for it to stop, so it is always best to not get into those situations in the first place.
Here are 2 examples. This is me driving btw
Taking a turn on the gas, car goes sideways, correct it, doesn't help, hit the brakes. Braking stops the car from spinning but will not correct the oversteer situation; it instead just goes sideways. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4N_mpOBnYk
Slalom; turn one way, the suspension loads up, turn the other way and the turning moment combined with the suspension unloading causes the back end to come out. I try to correct it, fishtail and lose control. Again it becomes irrecoverable and I have no choice but to hit the brakes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtSxuM27NM
Don't have any with my 'Vette, but I spun my C5 Z06 out MULTIPLE times autocrossing and got a real sense of how easy it is to lose control in those cars when they are driven at the limit. Again, the only way you will ever get better is by practicing...
You forgot the choice for stupid immature driver. Because they do stupid stuff with there right foot. No stupid stuff with the right foot = No fishtailing. After 20 years of Corvette ownership I have NEVER lost control of a Corvette Hmmmm must be a reason.
Sometimes in a car, regardless of driver skill, an unexpected situation will occur. Is it better to be prepared for that or just say, "I don't need to know how to control a car at its limit because after 20 years I haven't had to."
Heck, sounds good. Maybe I will stop practicing emergencies in my jet, too. I have never actually HAD an engine fire, afterall....
There are going to be people who are going to drive in a very mature way and will still maybe hit the gas too much in a certain condition and their (not there, BTW) tail will slide out. (NOTE: Yes, I am fully aware it should actually be "his tail," but we will let that slide. Pun intended.)
Saying this can only happen to a stupid or immature driver is pretty arrogant.
If you're VERY sideways, DO NOT lift. The tires will simply bite and send you in whatever direction the car is currently pointing. As counterintuitive as it sounds, you actually have to keep the rear wheels from catching traction until the fronts can pull the car straight enough to get the nose away from the wall/barrier/curb/etc.
The only problem with this theory is that TC/AH will eventually figure out what's going on and cut the throttle and hit at least one rear brake for you
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerouac
If you're driving in a manner that will kick out the rear end of a Vette with traction control on, then you need to take a High Perfromance Driver Education School ASAP.
If the rear is losing traction from too much throttle, hitting the brakes takes away traction from the rear and gives it to the front and you to loop the car. Even suddenly lifting off the throttle can cause trailing throttle oversteer in a high horsepower rear wheel drive car and you will leave the road rear end first.
Unfortunately, the instinctive reactions are wrong! So practice is needed.
I remember going through an autocross slaloms a little sideways where I tried to gather up the car by tapping the brake and the instructor said, "wrong pedal." Made absolutely no sense to me in the heat of the moment when operating on instinct. By after a few more passess through the slalom, it becomes obvious pretty quickly that he was right.
Autocrossing your Vette is probably the cheapest and safest way to get the practice you need to be ready for when the unexpected happens.
The only problem with this theory is that TC/AH will eventually figure out what's going on and cut the throttle and hit at least one rear brake for you
That is probably true, but I have gotten mine pretty loose without the driver aids kicking in.
I guess I was just trying to explain how to fix the problem....if the nannies step in in the middle of it, not much you can do about that I guess.
Don't have any with my 'Vette, but I spun my C5 Z06 out MULTIPLE times autocrossing and got a real sense of how easy it is to lose control in those cars when they are driven at the limit. Again, the only way you will ever get better is by practicing...
Seat time and experience, you can't possibly learn from reading as the only way to learn is by doing, over & over again and finally yes........ always, always look to where you want to go!
Obviously, there are several opinions on this, but here's the test for this theory... Take a toy car with rubber tires and lock the rears so they will not turn. Place the toy car on a slick surface, tilted at an angle great enough for car to roll/slide down. You will notice the car tends to begin switching ends immediately...
Bottom line, for any tire to do it's job, it has to be rolling. That's what ABS is intended to do, keep the tires rolling. Applying the emergency/parking brake will only exaserbate an oversteer situation. In fact, during skid pad exercises to demonstrate oversteer/understeer, our instructors, including myself, will use the e brake lever to put the car into an oversteer mode, releasing it quickly and allowing the student to correct the situation... Howver, there are some oversteer situations that even SuperMan couldn't catch, but the advice is still the same, and that is to keep the front wheels and your eyes pointed in the direction you intended to go...
In most cases, there is no super technique one can use to overcome aggressive stupidity.
I also have some experience on a skid pad. A sliding tire will always try to lead. In other words, if a back tire or tires are sliding, it (they) will tend to get in front of the rolling tires. This can be demonstrated by locking one of the wheels on a toy car and shoving it down a table or the floor. The corner where the wheel is sliding will come around to the lead every time.
A sliding tire will always try to lead. In other words, if a back tire or tires are sliding, it (they) will tend to get in front of the rolling tires. This can be demonstrated by locking one of the wheels on a toy car and shoving it down a table or the floor.
Correct.
I had stated the opposite earlier, careless mistake on my part, sorry.
I can only speak from my experience. I feel that taking the Spring Mountain 3 day course was the single most important thing I've done since getting the C6. With the power, the lack of traction in cold and or wet, and the electronic nannies, recovering from a fishtail can be tricky.
There's no easy way to explain what to do, and more importantly, when to do it. By learning on a track, with experienced instructors, you get a physical sense of what is going on in the car, and the muscle memory to react without having to think ( which takes too much time).
Almost every story of somebody hitting the guardrail or spinning off the road begins with the driver nailing the throttle when in a turn, or when the rear wheels aren't directly behind the fronts. Rule #1- squeeze, don't nail the throttle. Rule #2- know your traction is limited given the levels of power. Rule #3- Look where you want the car to go, not necessarily where you're pointed. Rule #4- IF the rear starts coming around, correct along with the car's rotation, don't wait. Now here is where things get tricky. With the electronics fully on, the car will try to right itself, and your actions can't be as extreme as would be needed without them. You correct LESS with the nannies on than before. AND you have to watch out for the car to try to overcorrect itself because of your input. This is VERY interactive and has to be managed viscerally, without thinking ( you don't have time to think).
I can only say that the training I had at Spring Mountain is responsible for me not hitting a guardrail on the autobahn at a high rate of speed, destroying the car and possibly killing myself. You can't replicate that kind of reaction without having done it in a safe environment, with an instructor in the car.
Training is the way, man.
GM
Totally hit it on the head You cant think, you just react. it happens so fast you just do it, and somehow hopefully get the car under control. I spun out at watkins glen on dry pavement at 60 in good conditions because of 2 things...too much tire pressure( I added tire pressure before the run, should have kept them at 29 I was doing fine.. and I entered an apex too quick for my tires to grip, understeered, started to oversteer(fishtale) and corrected...didnt counter correct fast enough and the car just spun...I saved it didnt hit anything, but I pulled my stomach muscles and hit my head(helmet), I was with an instructor too...from what I can remember, I straightened the front wheels so the car spun on its axis(staying in one place, and when it slowed spinning I hit the brake and prayed that the car would stop before hitting anything and it did(thank God) This worked in the situation I was in but maybe it would not work in another sitiuation... and I really had no time to think. it was really scary If I was going faster I thing I would have a heart attack.. One thing I would say is listen to your car, it speaks to you..the tires will screech telling you that hey bud, Im almost going to loose it here, take it easy...the suspension will also tell you that hey, Im not planted enough for what you are trying to do...take it easy, wait until I am, ok
now ease that throttle, good Im set, ok push harder, harder, (and away you go no drama...smooth is fast even in the rain and cold, just listen to your car, turn the radio off, and pay attention to driving and the sounds of the car...you can drive spiritely in any weather if you are smooth and listen to your car and stay under its limits(its limits are much lower when its cold/wet outside
Location: City of Angels Socialist Republic of Kah-Li-Fohnia
To what has been already stated and validated, I would add that the C6 should be driven as if the nannies are non-existent, because they basically are on these cars a slow speeds. The C5 electronics intervened immediately to shut things down quickly. The C6 is simply not effective in this regard, for reasons that are unclear. A number of members have trusted the C6 nanny, only to put the car into a light pole or curb goosing the gas around a corner.
The other is to find a large parking lot with no light poles, visit it on a rainy day, make sure no one else is around, and practice skid control. You will quickly learn how the car behaves at the limit. This is a critical skill with the EMT tire, which has tremendous grip, but very abrupt breakaway.
And NEVER use the handbrake except as a last resort if you have lost your hydraulics.
Sometimes in a car, regardless of driver skill, an unexpected situation will occur. Is it better to be prepared for that or just say, "I don't need to know how to control a car at its limit because after 20 years I haven't had to."
Heck, sounds good. Maybe I will stop practicing emergencies in my jet, too. I have never actually HAD an engine fire, afterall....
There are going to be people who are going to drive in a very mature way and will still maybe hit the gas too much in a certain condition and their (not there, BTW) tail will slide out. (NOTE: Yes, I am fully aware it should actually be "his tail," but we will let that slide. Pun intended.)
Saying this can only happen to a stupid or immature driver is pretty arrogant.
You've got to admit that immaturity does play a huge role, though. Most of the accidents reported here from time to time weren't the sort that a mature sober driver would have gotten into.
Now that said, once in my young immature days, I spun the full 1.125 mile length of the bridge across the Ohio River at Evansville in a 1966 Olds 98. Black ice. I frankly don't think any amount of maturity would have prevented that spin. But perhaps a bit of skill, and the fact I was driving at a very moderate speed, kept the car on the bridge instead of in the river.
Big negative on step 1 ghostrider! Completely chopping the throttle will transfer more weight to the front tires, reducing grip in the rear and making the over steer worse. Slightly lifting and countersteering is whats needed in a power on over steer condition.
What are you credentials for preaching this? Did you read rule 2?
In any slide on dry ground or especially wet you dont stay in the throttle. The car is sliding in the first place because of the rear wheels are trying to get ahead of the car (i.e. accelerating). So what you are saying is to stay on the gas and just steer?
And you want the front tires to have more traction because they are the tires that control the direction of the car. That is why I said cut off the throttle, and gently turn the steering wheel in the direction of the skid.
The proceedure are as follows:
Let off the throttle, there is no driving manual or insturctor in their right mind would tell you not to do this.
Steer accordingly (depending on the severity of the slide, you may not have to steer much, this will counteract any oversteer/understeer situation).
__________________ If I can't see your front tires in my rear view mirror that means you are driving too close to me!
2008... BLK on BLK vert, 2LT, Z51, MN6, Q9V's Performance Mods:1-3/4 ARH w/cats and street tune from ECS, Borla Stingers, MGW Shifter, Callaway Honker CAI, Ported Throttle Body
Aestethics:Powder coated calipers (red), GCA Mud guards, DSvettes shifter knob & boot, e-brake handle & boot w/titanium stiching, Kenwood 6160 DVD Nav unit.
I don't understand all these rear-end breaking loose threads. I will admit I am not the world's greatest driver, but I have never lost the back end of my Corvette unless I wanted to. I drive my car in a very spirtied manner, but I don't understand how people can crash on an on ramp.
The above statement does not include ice or snow.
Because some people dont know how to drive!
__________________ If I can't see your front tires in my rear view mirror that means you are driving too close to me!
2008... BLK on BLK vert, 2LT, Z51, MN6, Q9V's Performance Mods:1-3/4 ARH w/cats and street tune from ECS, Borla Stingers, MGW Shifter, Callaway Honker CAI, Ported Throttle Body
Aestethics:Powder coated calipers (red), GCA Mud guards, DSvettes shifter knob & boot, e-brake handle & boot w/titanium stiching, Kenwood 6160 DVD Nav unit.
SOmeone mentioned if you counter stee you make theproblem worse. This is true is you over react. Too much counter steer and when the wheels bite you're headed for a wall. Small correction, back off throttle , no brakes, the car will straighten out.
Completely chopping the throttle will transfer more weight to the front tires, reducing grip in the rear and making the over steer worse. Slightly lifting and countersteering is whats needed in a power on over steer condition.
Red86Cfour is correct. The issue is that you cannot get COMPLETELY off the throttle. If you do lift off the throttle, it has to be slow enough not to put any engine drag on the rear wheels or else it is like pulling the E-brake.
I've induced snap oversteer in an autocross by rapidly lifting off the throttle after getting a little sideways in a corner. The rear end comes around so fast that there is nothing you can do to save it.
Try it next time you autocross in any high horsepower rwd car! The Viper drivers have a hell of a time learning to deal with snap oversteer on their 8L V10s so keep an eye on them too.
Lots of useful bits of advice here, especially looking where you want to go. If you look at the tree, that is where you'll end up. Also, a racing school where the vehicles provided are Corvettes such as Spring Mountain or Bondurant (there are many others) is almost a must if you are going to be driving a Corvette aggressively.
Corvette Store
... and I don't know how in the heck I'd ever be able to keep myself from instantly countersteering in a slide... I hope there's an ejection seat too!!! 
and finally yes........ always, always look to where you want to go!
If I was going faster I thing I would have a heart attack..
