Muscle Cars 'May Be Legislated Out of Existence'
12-19-2007, 07:45 PM
#81
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Who is preventing you from buying a large car? We have a CAFE standard of 27 mpg right now. It does not stop GM from selling Suburbans and Hummers. The Suburban is 6.4 feet tall, over 6.5 feet wide and nearly 17 feet long. Hell, go buy a school bus if you want. The new CAFE standard does not prevent you from buying whatever you want.
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I've never been to Europe, but I know a little bit about the auto market there. Try buying a Suburban or Hummer over there. The typical car is much smaller than in the U.S., and the typical car has a diesel engine that is not very powerful. Buying a bigger vehicle like that, or a powerful sports car in Europe is very expensive, and you'll pay extra taxes on it as well.
Your last sentence says "The new CAFE standard does not prevent you from buying whatever you want." We are not there yet. Give it time, and it probably will prevent you from buying what you want because nobody will be making what you want.
12-19-2007, 08:15 PM
#83
Melting Slicks
By now, everyone has seen/heard/read that the Energy Bill was signed today, along with the new CAFE requirements for 35 mpg corporate-wide. The articles I read stated that while the auto manufacturers initially resisted the new average, they eventually agreed just so they could get their future planning underway. I would predict that manufacturers, eager to advertise how 'green' they are (and avoid being portrayed as big Spotted-Owl-stomping Meanies by the press), will trumpet their support for this measure in their TV ads.
All that said, it seems pretty unlikely to have any effect on the remaining years of the C6 (besides the already-planned addition of DoD and DI, which are both good things anyway in my book). But, I think the chances of seeing a 7.0L or larger motor in the C7 are quite reduced by this bill. More than likely, I think a smaller motor with some sort of forced induction to make big HP numbers is a much better bet now, or perhaps even the long-resisted move to multi-valve/OHC heads.
Perhaps the limited run of the C6 ZR1 will serve as a test bed to shake out forced-induction issues to prepare for a supercharged DI DoD 5.3L V8 in the base model C7? I think that combo could achieve economy numbers in the 25 city/35 highway range in a relatively lightweight car such as the Corvette.
I think its also a dead-lock that these new economy-raising efforts will be expensive. Add that to the added cost of the new platform, and I think that we will see the MSRP between $55k-$59k for the C7 base model.
All that said, it seems pretty unlikely to have any effect on the remaining years of the C6 (besides the already-planned addition of DoD and DI, which are both good things anyway in my book). But, I think the chances of seeing a 7.0L or larger motor in the C7 are quite reduced by this bill. More than likely, I think a smaller motor with some sort of forced induction to make big HP numbers is a much better bet now, or perhaps even the long-resisted move to multi-valve/OHC heads.
Perhaps the limited run of the C6 ZR1 will serve as a test bed to shake out forced-induction issues to prepare for a supercharged DI DoD 5.3L V8 in the base model C7? I think that combo could achieve economy numbers in the 25 city/35 highway range in a relatively lightweight car such as the Corvette.
I think its also a dead-lock that these new economy-raising efforts will be expensive. Add that to the added cost of the new platform, and I think that we will see the MSRP between $55k-$59k for the C7 base model.
12-19-2007, 08:18 PM
#84
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Funny but sad, I predicted this some time ago. The new CAFE standards, the popularization of the green movement and global warming. Anything that speaks to wasting of energy will have increased negative implications. Toyota is thought of as a "green" company becuase of its Prius, nevermind that it makes a lot of Sequioas, Tundras, Land Cruisers & big Lexuses. Soon it will be politically very un-cool to sell a 500hp car, let alone something with 600+hp. This is the apogy of the golden age of performance. The Corvette SS & others like it will the last of the line for a long, long time. Toyota's new supercar may never make it market.
With regards to CAFE, the first move automakers will do is raise prices on fuel in-efficient models and lower prices on the efficient ones. Expect full-size utes and trucks to go up $10k to $20k in a short period of time, prices for the smallest cars, like city cars to be in the low mid-teens. All engineering resources will be spent on increasing efficiency.
CAFE standards are just the first salvo to combat global warming. Simply put, the best way to decrease carbon footprint is to reduce fuel consumption and the easiest way to decrease fuel consumption is to reduce output. Consider this, vehicles are lasting longer than ever, a potential option to lowering carbon emissions would be to remove all older large engined vehicles from the road, think vehicle scraping programs or increased vehicle fees based on displacement and year of manufacture.
I am thinking this is only the begining...
With regards to CAFE, the first move automakers will do is raise prices on fuel in-efficient models and lower prices on the efficient ones. Expect full-size utes and trucks to go up $10k to $20k in a short period of time, prices for the smallest cars, like city cars to be in the low mid-teens. All engineering resources will be spent on increasing efficiency.
CAFE standards are just the first salvo to combat global warming. Simply put, the best way to decrease carbon footprint is to reduce fuel consumption and the easiest way to decrease fuel consumption is to reduce output. Consider this, vehicles are lasting longer than ever, a potential option to lowering carbon emissions would be to remove all older large engined vehicles from the road, think vehicle scraping programs or increased vehicle fees based on displacement and year of manufacture.
I am thinking this is only the begining...
12-19-2007, 08:27 PM
#85
Le Mans Master
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God I hope you are wrong Jim but my gut tells me you may just be right. Things sure aren't going to get any better for a while. 
It will be interesting to see what they can do with DOD. Yes, they looked at DOD on the LS3 but it caused some issues so it was tabled (not scrapped).
It will be interesting to see what they can do with DOD. Yes, they looked at DOD on the LS3 but it caused some issues so it was tabled (not scrapped).
... More HP equals more gas required equals lower mileage. The vette currently does a wonderful job of delivering high hp with good fuel mileage. However unless there is a technological break through (possible) cars like vettes will have hp ratings going backwards before long. It's such a small part of the total auto market place it will hardly cause a ripple in the pond. Once again the morons in DC will cram vehicles down consumers throats that many don't want. If you don't think it can happen do a little research on what they've done to Class 8 trucks! Govt mandates have in fact increased the cost of a new truck about 10 grand while actually lowering fuel mileage! This was done by mandating low sulfur fuels on engines clearly not ready for prime time! Heck, the EPA still has no clue as to the total impact on the environment and transportation costs in general. This is really our tax dollars working against us, but then what else is new?
12-19-2007, 08:36 PM
#86
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Quote, 68427:
"...CAFE standards are just the first salvo to combat global warming. Simply put, the best way to decrease carbon footprint is to reduce fuel consumption and the easiest way to decrease fuel consumption is to reduce output. Consider this, vehicles are lasting longer than ever, a potential option to lowering carbon emissions would be to remove all older large engined vehicles from the road, think vehicle scraping programs or increased vehicle fees based on displacement and year of manufacture.
I am thinking this is only the begining... ..."
The underlined could then mean, even WITH a great, 10-year strategy, you could pay through the nose, increasing over the years, to keep what is perceived to be an older, energy hog. This could mean a perfectly fine, say, '08 Corvette that gets ____(27 mpg?), in 10 years could pay maybe twice as much "tax" as a brand new, 37 mpg car?
Ugh, what a thought. There goes the forward planning. But it would work as 68 sez to reduce the number of older cars on the road. Eventually.
"...CAFE standards are just the first salvo to combat global warming. Simply put, the best way to decrease carbon footprint is to reduce fuel consumption and the easiest way to decrease fuel consumption is to reduce output. Consider this, vehicles are lasting longer than ever, a potential option to lowering carbon emissions would be to remove all older large engined vehicles from the road, think vehicle scraping programs or increased vehicle fees based on displacement and year of manufacture.
I am thinking this is only the begining... ..."
The underlined could then mean, even WITH a great, 10-year strategy, you could pay through the nose, increasing over the years, to keep what is perceived to be an older, energy hog. This could mean a perfectly fine, say, '08 Corvette that gets ____(27 mpg?), in 10 years could pay maybe twice as much "tax" as a brand new, 37 mpg car?
Ugh, what a thought.
There goes the forward planning. But it would work as 68 sez to reduce the number of older cars on the road. Eventually.
12-19-2007, 08:39 PM
#87
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A new energy bill is about to be signed into law....
"The 822-page bill's centerpiece is a requirement that the nation's fleet of vehicles achieve an average 35 miles per gallon by 2020. That would be an increase of about 10 miles per gallon from fuel mileage cars and trucks on the road achieve now."
I'm not one for predicting doom and gloom, but I was a young car nut just buying my first cars in the early/mid 1970s and saw what happened then. I honestly think in the next few years, cars like the Z06 in particular might become high water marks for quite a few years to come.
This will be an interesting development to watch.
"The 822-page bill's centerpiece is a requirement that the nation's fleet of vehicles achieve an average 35 miles per gallon by 2020. That would be an increase of about 10 miles per gallon from fuel mileage cars and trucks on the road achieve now."
I'm not one for predicting doom and gloom, but I was a young car nut just buying my first cars in the early/mid 1970s and saw what happened then. I honestly think in the next few years, cars like the Z06 in particular might become high water marks for quite a few years to come.
This will be an interesting development to watch.
Trust me when I say that getting to a corporate average of 35 will dramatically change our car buying options. Again, I'm not suggesting doom & gloom for performance cars. But, if you were around in the mid-1970s, you know what I'm bringing this up. Todays economy cars are faster than the Corvettes of the late '70s.[/QUOTE]
Well said,
I remember those years, and you are right, Vettes back then were not that fast. Hopefully we will always be able to mod.
12-19-2007, 09:08 PM
#88
A new energy bill is about to be signed into law....
"The 822-page bill's centerpiece is a requirement that the nation's fleet of vehicles achieve an average 35 miles per gallon by 2020. That would be an increase of about 10 miles per gallon from fuel mileage cars and trucks on the road achieve now."
I'm not one for predicting doom and gloom, but I was a young car nut just buying my first cars in the early/mid 1970s and saw what happened then. I honestly think in the next few years, cars like the Z06 in particular might become high water marks for quite a few years to come.
This will be an interesting development to watch.
"The 822-page bill's centerpiece is a requirement that the nation's fleet of vehicles achieve an average 35 miles per gallon by 2020. That would be an increase of about 10 miles per gallon from fuel mileage cars and trucks on the road achieve now."
I'm not one for predicting doom and gloom, but I was a young car nut just buying my first cars in the early/mid 1970s and saw what happened then. I honestly think in the next few years, cars like the Z06 in particular might become high water marks for quite a few years to come.
This will be an interesting development to watch.
12-19-2007, 09:14 PM
#89
Burning Brakes
Funny but sad, I predicted this some time ago. The new CAFE standards, the popularization of the green movement and global warming. Anything that speaks to wasting of energy will have increased negative implications. Toyota is thought of as a "green" company becuase of its Prius, nevermind that it makes a lot of Sequioas, Tundras, Land Cruisers & big Lexuses. Soon it will be politically very un-cool to sell a 500hp car, let alone something with 600+hp. This is the apogy of the golden age of performance. The Corvette SS & others like it will the last of the line for a long, long time. Toyota's new supercar may never make it market.
With regards to CAFE, the first move automakers will do is raise prices on fuel in-efficient models and lower prices on the efficient ones. Expect full-size utes and trucks to go up $10k to $20k in a short period of time, prices for the smallest cars, like city cars to be in the low mid-teens. All engineering resources will be spent on increasing efficiency.
CAFE standards are just the first salvo to combat global warming. Simply put, the best way to decrease carbon footprint is to reduce fuel consumption and the easiest way to decrease fuel consumption is to reduce output. Consider this, vehicles are lasting longer than ever, a potential option to lowering carbon emissions would be to remove all older large engined vehicles from the road, think vehicle scraping programs or increased vehicle fees based on displacement and year of manufacture.
I am thinking this is only the begining...
With regards to CAFE, the first move automakers will do is raise prices on fuel in-efficient models and lower prices on the efficient ones. Expect full-size utes and trucks to go up $10k to $20k in a short period of time, prices for the smallest cars, like city cars to be in the low mid-teens. All engineering resources will be spent on increasing efficiency.
CAFE standards are just the first salvo to combat global warming. Simply put, the best way to decrease carbon footprint is to reduce fuel consumption and the easiest way to decrease fuel consumption is to reduce output. Consider this, vehicles are lasting longer than ever, a potential option to lowering carbon emissions would be to remove all older large engined vehicles from the road, think vehicle scraping programs or increased vehicle fees based on displacement and year of manufacture.
I am thinking this is only the begining...
As stated, the mandated increase of ethanol in gasoline has so many unintended consequences (water usage, dead zones in the Gulf from increased fertilizer runoff, cost of food and shortages) that I can't understand how the corn lobby got this included--actually I can.
This bill is not a consequence of energy costs and availability, which are self-regulating, but of hysteria over global warming and those that will profit from it, monetarily and otherwise.
12-19-2007, 09:59 PM
#91
Effect greatest on C6 not C7
Having lived through the demise of the first muscle era I have a different perspective. I suspect the C7 will be flexfuel and be able to use E85 ( 85% alcohol ).
I remember when people said premium 100 octane leaded would be around forever. It was gone in a few short years. And the cars that used it scrapped or parked. And all the expensive old vettes and other muscle cars.....if unmodified the engines will destroy themselves quickly on todays junk gasoline. Every C6 needs pure gasoline or at most the 10% alcohol mix used in some areas in the winter.
If, in the near future it becomes difficult to get straight gasoline the C6 may be made obsolete very quickly like the vettes of the 60s were.
The C7 will be designed to live into the energy future. The C6 is designed, for all its great mileage etc, to live in the energy past.
E85 would be a really good thing if added to the 09s.
I remember when people said premium 100 octane leaded would be around forever. It was gone in a few short years. And the cars that used it scrapped or parked. And all the expensive old vettes and other muscle cars.....if unmodified the engines will destroy themselves quickly on todays junk gasoline. Every C6 needs pure gasoline or at most the 10% alcohol mix used in some areas in the winter.
If, in the near future it becomes difficult to get straight gasoline the C6 may be made obsolete very quickly like the vettes of the 60s were.
The C7 will be designed to live into the energy future. The C6 is designed, for all its great mileage etc, to live in the energy past.
E85 would be a really good thing if added to the 09s.
12-19-2007, 10:23 PM
#92
Team Owner
Thread Starter
The other issue is simply capital investment dollars. An aweful lot of investment dollars will have to go into the other mass produced vehicles. That spells fewer dollars available to be invested in Corvette development.
I think the Corvette will probably survive, but even that is not a given. But I don't think we'll see the progresssion we've seen over the last ten years. I think we are probably going to see a peak in performance in the next 6 or 7 years.
Just my opinion.
12-19-2007, 10:28 PM
#93
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Having lived through the demise of the first muscle era I have a different perspective. I suspect the C7 will be flexfuel and be able to use E85 ( 85% alcohol ).
I remember when people said premium 100 octane leaded would be around forever. It was gone in a few short years. And the cars that used it scrapped or parked. And all the expensive old vettes and other muscle cars.....if unmodified the engines will destroy themselves quickly on todays junk gasoline. Every C6 needs pure gasoline or at most the 10% alcohol mix used in some areas in the winter.
If, in the near future it becomes difficult to get straight gasoline the C6 may be made obsolete very quickly like the vettes of the 60s were.
The C7 will be designed to live into the energy future. The C6 is designed, for all its great mileage etc, to live in the energy past.
E85 would be a really good thing if added to the 09s.
I remember when people said premium 100 octane leaded would be around forever. It was gone in a few short years. And the cars that used it scrapped or parked. And all the expensive old vettes and other muscle cars.....if unmodified the engines will destroy themselves quickly on todays junk gasoline. Every C6 needs pure gasoline or at most the 10% alcohol mix used in some areas in the winter.
If, in the near future it becomes difficult to get straight gasoline the C6 may be made obsolete very quickly like the vettes of the 60s were.
The C7 will be designed to live into the energy future. The C6 is designed, for all its great mileage etc, to live in the energy past.
E85 would be a really good thing if added to the 09s.
Also, I expect that many other problems will creep up in keeping up with demand for ethanol. How about issues like weather? A drought suddenly wipes out the ability to grow corn in some regions, floods in the midwest??? It works real well when nobody is actually counting on it. But what happens when it's required?
If you actually look at the trends, diesel looks like the coming thing. Even Honda has announced that many of it's U.S. vehicles will be offered with diesels in the next couple of years. And diesel already is the predominant power in Europe.
12-19-2007, 10:33 PM
#95
Drifting
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The C7 will be all solar powered with a peak energy output of 8 BHP, and will do 0-60 in , well it won't go to 60 actually, but will get great mileage.
Seriously, given that the requirement is to reduce fuel consumption by 2025, the C7 will likely not be an issue.
Seriously, given that the requirement is to reduce fuel consumption by 2025, the C7 will likely not be an issue.
12-20-2007, 01:08 AM
#96
Life Time NCM #2196
The Vette the best economy V8 in America and with it already getting very good mileage, it will be around an not really hurt the total like Trucks and SUVs will even those using Diesel fuel do not get mileage of a stock Vette
12-20-2007, 01:18 AM
#97
Le Mans Master
To avoid the tax, you have to get 22.5 mpg combined, using a 45% city/55% highway mileage mix.
If you get under 22.5 but over 21.5, you get a $1000 tax added to the price of the vehicle. If you get under 21.5 mpg, you get a $7,700 tax added to the price of the vehicle.
If you get under 22.5 but over 21.5, you get a $1000 tax added to the price of the vehicle. If you get under 21.5 mpg, you get a $7,700 tax added to the price of the vehicle.
12-20-2007, 01:20 AM
#98
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Lot's of green initiatives globally these days. I often wonder how quickly states will tighten up emission controls across the board. CA is tight already, but I wonder if they will eventually reinstate annual smog tests for all cars...no exemptions for newer cars.
12-20-2007, 01:20 AM
#99
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St. Jude Donor '08
According to the EPA, many vehicles see a 25% mileage reduction with E85!
The new Chevy Tahoe? The EPA rates it 15/21 with gas, just 11/15 mpg with E85.
La dee frickin dah. The whole country has been duped and sold out to make some idiots in Washington feel good about themselves.
The new Chevy Tahoe? The EPA rates it 15/21 with gas, just 11/15 mpg with E85.
La dee frickin dah. The whole country has been duped and sold out to make some idiots in Washington feel good about themselves.
