Jay's Z

OK...sad but true...my 2002 (27,900 on the odo) spends more time in the garage than she does on the road.

I have never had any mechanical issues with her, ever...until recently. The last few times I fired her up, starting was a crank_fest. The engine turns over easily with a strong battery and gives no hint of life. Then, after several lifeless cranking's, I turn the key and she fires perfectly and idles smoothly as though the afore mentioned crank_fest never occurred.

Yesterday, the engine lit on the first try but stumbled around badly and died in the first few seconds. It did this 3 or 4 times...lighting instantly, stumbling badly and dying in a few seconds. Then, on the next start she fires perfectly and idles smoothly.

I have also found that after driving for 20 minutes or so and with the engine fully up to temp (oil temp at 200). I would stop, shut down the engine and attempt to restart after 30 minutes or so...and run into the same lifeless cranking scenario for a few attempts as I described earlier.

My initial thought was an issue on the fueling side since she sits so much. Perhaps some gum/varnish has built up and this needs to be cleaned out...but, I'm not sure where to start.

I'd really appreciate an assist and insights from the members.

Thank you very much.

-Jay

bluestreak63

Are you sure your battery is good? Did you have it tested? How old is it? May also want to try a bottle of Techron (available at your FLAPS).

Could also be fuel pump/filter related.

You may also want to take a look at your plugs and see what kind of condition they are in.

Jay's Z

Thank you. I really appreciate the input.

The battery Optima Redtop) is maybe 2 years old and I keep it on a tender in the car. It's in excellent shape.

I'm picking up a bottle of either SeaFoam or Techron today...but, what is the best way to introduce it into the engine for maximum cleaning effect?

RE: fuel filter...I believe I know where it is (near driver's side rear wheel?) but I think I'd need a special tool? It has never been replaced. Could it be the culprit?

Plugs (NGK TR55) have maybe 12K on them.

Thanks again!

-Jay

striper

You need to drive that car more. Sitting isn't doing it any good. I doubt it's fuel related, if it were it wouldn't run good sometimes and not so good other times. More than likely you need a battery. Bad batteries cause these cars to have more problems than you can imagine. I'm sure you need to replace it, and get a battery tender if you're not going to drive it very often. Still won't hurt to put a few bottles of Techron in your tank. At least it will keep your fuel gauge working properly.

Jay's Z

Thanks Striper.

Yes...I need to drive it more. I got that.

The battery is a fresh Optima Redtop that I keep on a tender in the car.

I've got Sea Foam and MAF cleaner. Cleaned the MAF yesterday. The TB looks dirty...I'll be spraying a bottle of Sea Foam spray into the intake after I do some other maint. stuff including cleaning the rad and replacing hoses, rad fluid and serp belt.

I'm pulling the fans to get better access to the rad for blowing the debris out and since I have it apart at the front, it seemed a good time for the belt and hoses replacement.

I also ordered a replacement fuel filter and the fuel line removal tool.

After I button her back up, I'll pour a can of Sea Foam into the fuel tank and bring her to life. Hopefully, that will solve the starting gremlin.

I'll post a follow-up.

I'm open to any other ideas.

Thanks again.

-Jay

Jay's Z

Follow-up...

So...I performed all of the maintenance stuff I mentioned earlier.

Buttoned it all up and she fired on the first touch of the ignition. Ran her up to temp and topped off the coolant reservoir....shut it down and installed the Sea Foam spray tube into the TB. She fired right up again and with an assistant holding the revs around 1800 to 2200...sprayed 1/2 bottle of Sea Foam spray into the TB.

Shut it down again and waited about 5 minutes or so. She lit right up again but immediately started running rough (from the Sea Foam I assume) so I revved her good and tried to keep her alive while it coughed and belched white smoke. Ultimately however, the engine sounded like it got super rich, bogged and then died. I was not able to relight the engine after numerous tries. She would crank, stumble and die without ever really getting any life in the engine. I gave up and called it for the day.

This morning I climbed into the seat and hit the ignition and she did what she's been doing before the work...cranking away without a hint of life. I hit the ignition about 6 or 7 times. After the 7th or so crank, I though I heard a small electronic noise after I released the ignition key and on the very next crank she lit up like nothing had ever been wrong and idled perfectly. I drove her around for about 30 minutes or so and she runs perfectly.

I'm beginning to suspect what striper mentioned in his post...something electrical.

Where should I focus my search? I have inspected the battery connections and they look perfect. I can't see any apparent corrosion on the coil pack connections...I'm really at a loss here.

All ideas appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

-Jay

p.s. Oh yeah...I purchased a new fuel filter and the little fuel line removal thingy but I have not replaced the old one yet.

808EB03Z06

Do you have headers? I had something similar when I installed mine and the cause was the wires to the starter had been melted and ground out the electrical system. I am actually having a fairly similar issue as you now as well but think it may be due to previous issues like this again.

Jay's Z

Yes.

I have not looked at wires near the headers around the starter. I will get under there and inspect.

Thanks!

-Jay

Jay's Z

Update...

OK it appears the connector near the engine bloc & header from the driver's side O2 sensor is heat damaged. There are wires entering the connector on both side that are missing insulation with bare wires exposed. The connector itself also appears to be heat damaged.

On the starter side...there is a smaller reddish wire connected to the starter motor with the insulation melted off and bare wire exposed. I cannot see the condition of the other wires near the starter since they are obscured by the header. The O2 sensor connector on the starter side appears to be in good condition.

I have pulled the ignition relay and jumped the connectors to see if the car would start...no joy. It is an intermittent but frequent condition...cranking with no hint of engine life. Then suddenly after several attempts to start, it lights up like nothing was ever amiss.

I'm all ears folks.

Thank you.

-Jay

Shane1974

I had a similar problem. It took a while to track down, but it was a vacuum leak. Also, try cycling the key 3 or 4 times before starting. That would tell you if you have a fuel delivery issue. The fuel pump will prime each time you turn the key and wait a few seconds. These cars are also bad about intake manifold gaskets. Once running, spray carb cleaner around all vacuum related areas to help find your problem. Good luck.

808EB03Z06

The red wire to your starter is your power wire. If that thing is heat damaged it is more than likely your problem. What this damage can cause is a ground in the system, not allowing enough or any power to get to your starter, thus no cranky cranky. I had this issue and after I had the starter wires replaced my car ran like new. Personally I would give that a try.

Jay's Z

Thank you Shane.

I have done exactly that...and I've heard a secondary electronic noise...like a solenoid kicking in...and then she fires effortlessly.

What would I look for to chase down the bad connection?

Jay's Z

Thanks 808...

I need to get her up on a lift and pull the header on the starter side. I don't know if I can replace the wire or if I have to replace the starter as a unit?

Either way...some added insulation is needed.

Can I get insulated heat shield wrap that I can put around the wires?

Jay's Z

Time for an update.

I have spent considerable time researching my starting difficulties and I believe I may have the problem narrowed down to just a couple.

In summary...she takes several cranking sessions before lighting up. Sometimes...she will light and then stumble around sputtering like crazy. Then, all of a sudden, the engine will surge and settle into a perfect idle.
It seems to help if I turn the ignition on and off several times...like priming the pump...and then she will start with a bit less drama.
I have very recently done a good Sea Foam treatment, cleaned the MAF and TB, and poured an entire bottle of Sea Foam into the tank.

1. "sticky" fuel line check valve. I have 27,900 on an '02 car. She does a lot of sitting.

Question: How to "fix" the sticky fuel line check valve? Replacement? By whom? Cost?
Are there any other electrical issues that could contribute to the problem?

2. Fuel pump. I don't think it's a fuel pressure issue once she fires up and is running, she runs perfectly. No stumbles, sputtering or power drop-off's while driving.

Thanks again for your input.

-Jay