USCGREEL

First off, I just recently purchased this vehicle and love every second of it, much better than my last 8 years of F-Bodys. Well the car came with headers and when I get it home I get the infamous 0420 and 0430 trouble codes for rear O2 sensors. I called the dealership and asked them what they would do for me and they of course weren't sure, so I recommend that they buy me O2 simulators, well now it appears that they are illegal for sale in the U.S. Is this true and if not does anyone know of a company that sells them. And also will it keep the codes off of my 2004 I saw some that were available for 97-02 but couldn't find any for 2004's.

BlackZ06

Yup, you can't buy O2 sims anymore.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2007/July/07_enrd_490.html

Also, a dealer would be very unlikely to help you "defeat" the smog control features on your car. It is illegal, and the fines for a dealer (or anyone who defeats smog devices for pay) run into the tens of thousands of dollars.

You say the car has headers ..... you should probably check on what kind of catalytic converters it has on it .... and if you're in a smog test state you may want to check and see if the car will pass before you go making more mods to it.

VIPERBLUELX

ls1edit, hptuners, efi live, any of those tuner programs can turn off the rear 02's for you

USCGREEL

Allright good info, I am going to try and get them to buy the HPtuners software, is that stuff pretty complex or is it pretty step by step? I can turn wrenches easy but the whole computer thing..eee. I am in a smog test state and the car doesn't have cats, but somehow the dealership got the car to pass. So I am pretty sure I have the upper hand here with the dealership.

VIPERBLUELX

If they sold you a car without cats then you certainly have the upper hand. You could make them buy your some high flow cats or get the software.

BlackZ06

The "dealer" (as in a Chevrolet dealer ???) sold you a car with no cats on it ?????

They are so deep in do-do that it is pathetic .....

The ONLY LEGAL thing the dealer can do at this point (assuming they have any brains about them) is to put stock exhaust on the car. They need to take the headers off and put a stock manifold on the car, along with the OEM provided cats.

Screwing with "tuning software" or anything else would just get them in more trouble. The EPA can fine them up to $25,000 for messing with a non-stock exhaust set-up .... along with having sold the car that way to start with.

ANY reputable dealers would not have sold the car without cats ..... absolutely no way. You are either dealing with crooks or morons (or both).

VIPERBLUELX

If the dealership took the car in on trade with that setup on it then they aren't really at fault. Not many dealers would attempt to crawl under a C5 to check the exhaust.

BlackZ06

No, the ONLY thing a "dealer" can do is return the car to its stock EPA certified configuration. Anything else opens the dealer to substantial fines from the EPA and/or state agencies.

A car made after 1996 (all C5s fall in this category) MUST by Federal law have working OEM provided cats on them.

If you go take the cats off your car .... you can be fined, but if you PAY someone to take the cats off your car, not only can you be fined, but the person who receives payment to defeat the smog system on your car can be fined up to $25,000 .....

Some companies, such as Katech (they build the engines for the Corvette C6.Rs raced in ALMS) now have explicit policies stated on their website making it clear they will not alter the smog system on cars unless the customer clearly demonstrates the car is a pure "race car" ... unregistered ... trailered .... etc.

VIPERBLUELX

No shop can legally remove a functioning catalytic converter, but if the car comes in without any cats on it then they can certainly install high flow cats on the car without any legal issues.

BlackZ06

Dealers are not private sellers .... they have an obligation to verify that all "required" systems on the car are working correctly before they resell a car. A dealer can't sell you a car that doesn't have working brakes .... if they bought the car that way they have to fix it before they sell it because brakes are a "required" system on the car.

CA Vehicle Code - Division 12 - Equipment of Vehicles

24007. (a) (1) No dealer or person holding a retail seller's permit
shall sell a new or used vehicle that is not in compliance with this
code and departmental regulations adopted pursuant to this code,
unless the vehicle is sold to another dealer, sold for the purpose of
being legally wrecked or dismantled, or sold exclusively for
off-highway use.

A dealer has the same obligation for the smog devices (which is why they have to show you the car passed a smog test).

BlackZ06

If the car is less than 5 years (or 8 years - depends on the length of the OEM cat warranty) old, then the only replacement cats allowed are the OEM cats.

Go read the Katech policy .....

http://www.katechengines.com/street_.../emissions.php

More and more reputable shops are adopting policies like this. Who wants to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees trying to fight the federal govt if they show up and issue you fines for breaking the EPA rules and regulations ???? Who wants to spend the money having a lawyer constantly advising on whether it is legal under Federal/state law to mess with the catalytic system ????

Most dealers won't do it, and now we're seeing companies like Katech saying "not worth it to us ..... take your business elsewhere if you want anything other than OEM work done to the smog system".

USCGREEL

I don't really want them even messing with the car!! I want to keep the headers and exhaust exactly like it is. The shop did recieve the car like this and I will def. use the info provided. For some reason the dealer has not returned any of my 4 voicemails left on the machine...hmmm. I am going to show up tommorrow at there dealer and be like what the f? And hopefully scare them into buying me a Tuner program, then I will be happy, seeing how things work out tomm, i will update.

Blue Blood

They're not going to buy software that will hep you to defeat pollution controls. As a matter of fact, if you return to have them address the issue you may force their hand to return the car to stock....

fatbillybob

anyone try this on a vette?

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...simulator&st=0

USCGREEL

Allright you guys will have a hay day with this, called the dealership that I bought the car from TEXAS AUTO 281-728-6813, and they told me they would not do anything for me!!! They said the Camaro I sold them didn't have Cats. and that I owe them for them installing Cats. on my Camaro. Brian the Generel Manager at Texas Direct told me that he will sue me for me selling him the car without the Cats. if I tried to sue him. SO....... not sure the route I am going to go yet, but I will keep you up to date.

Labold

I don't think it is the dealers fault. They probably didn't even know about the cats. I would just have the rear 02's deleted on your own.

BlackZ06

Assuming the descriptions of how/why it "works" ..... that there are two cats in the exhaust flow and a sensor behind each cat (making 3 sensors in the exhaust flow), and that it is a temperature comparison between the two sensors .....

Then ... NO ... the Corvette uses only a single sensor behind the cats. The PCM is programmed to compare the "response time" of the two sensors in the exhaust stream in a lean-to-rich or a rich-to-lean transition. That's a completely different test than apparently the S2000 uses ... again assuming those guys aree describing how it works correctly.

BlackZ06

I think you're now in a "Mexican stand-off" .....you both have your guns drawn pointing at each other. If either of you fires, so does the other, you're both dead .... now who's gonna lower his gun first ????

Here's the problem for you .... if you take legal action, the ONLY thing you can sue for is to have the stock exhaust (exhaust manifold, OEM cats, etc.) put on the car. You can't sue someone and "force" them to do something illegal ("I paid the guy $5,000.00 to shoot my wife ... and he hasn't done it ..... make him shoot my wife"), courts cannot order someone to break the law (and your car, being a 2004, is illegal without the OEM cats on it).

Additionally, if you traded in a Camaro without cats .... the dealer MAY have a case against you .... depends on lots of things like the model year of the Camaro, your state laws on what is required during the sale of a vehicle ..... etc. Here in Cali, for example, if I sell a car to someone it is STATE law that the vehicle has to have passed a smog test within 90 days prior to the sale. A vehicle without cats should not pass a smog test. The idea is that anytime a vehicle changes ownership the new owner is assured that the vehicle is "legal".

At this point, IMHO, you should do one of two things ....

1) Contact an attorney who specializes in auto law in your state. Lay out the FACTS ... be dead honest .... and ask them where to go from here.

2) Bite the bullet and forget about the dealer. Look into what it will take to get the car to not throw codes and to pass future smog tests. Most likely you are looking at taking the car to a tuner to get the DTC turned OFF for the catalytic converter performance tests. If passing smog tests is important to you, make that clear to the tuner.

Good luck, if you hadn't taken the cats off the Camaro, you'd have the dealer by his ***** ..... now ..... you're pretty much on your own. In future, if you are gonna modify the car and make it illegal ..... think about keeping the stock parts and putting them back on the car when you go to sell it. You can always advertise that the car is stock but that the price includes the parts (headers, etc) to give the car more "performance".

Milan

Just get HPtuners or LS1edit and turn off the rear O2 sensors.

It's so easy a caveman can do it...even if you are horrible with computers.

Yes it's illegal to run without cats but who cares? It's a risk you have to be willing to take if you want to run w/o cats.