MagRed01Atty

Just wondering if anyone has Andy's $3,500 head/cam special on an LS1 with headers or similar?

hltambur

I am having one of Andy's H/C packages installed (as we speak) on my 6spd '02 coupe. Andy is also putting in a 4.10 differential, replacing my stock 3.42s. I can let you know how satisfied I am in a couple days.

I went with Andy because he took the time to explain various options with me, he ran down the list of cams that would fit my performance goals, and he gave me enough data to make a good informed decision. This was enough for me to drive 400 miles to get to his shop. Oh yeah, and $3500 is a killer price for H/C, dyno, and custom tuning.


[Modified by hltambur, 5:59 PM 5/14/2004] :hurray:


[Modified by hltambur, 6:00 PM 5/14/2004]

davette

Yes, just had it done. Heads/cam/headers. I also added an ls6 intake also.
Gained about 65 HP. So far, so good. :cool:
Not sure how much longer he will offer that price ;)

Bigben

I have the head cam special on my car. I also had a Vortech put on at the same time. This thread below gives more details and the Dyno 48O RWHP & 470 TQ. If you back out the power for the supercharger, keeping in mind no headers and stock airbox the head and cams did pretty well. Also, the torque numbers are pretty damn good compared to many other Vortechs with out the head & Cam special. I went with a pretty mild cam too.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=805903

I think it is a great buy. You may want to get it before the price goes up.

jmzvet

I have it plus the LG headers. Car runs great. 398hp/370tq. No codes, no problems, same gas mileage, awesome sound and useable power :cheers: .

MUKAK

what about SMOG?? WILL IT PASS??

Bigben

.

Depends on the cam you use, but it is suppossed to be able to pass. I am going to go in in the next 1-2 weeks for some minor tweaks and I am going to have a sniffer pre-test when I go in. I will report back once I do.

allanlaw

Yup, I might just know someone who did :yesnod:

NVR BRNG

Yeah, I had Andy do the work.

Here's my TAKE. (I hope you guys can handle the truth. Please don't consider this a flame in any way, just Answering the Question with Detail from my own experience.)

The GOOD
- Performance: (I have an '00 Vert.) As expected. From a pre-Dynojet pull @ Superior Automotive vs. the post-A&A H/C (plus MTI U/C Pulley and update w/ '04 LS6 fuel injectors) and tuning, I gained 71 RWHP, currently putting down 409 RWHP SAE on Andy's Dynojet. When looking at my pre & post dynographs, it is clear that the H/C make the power on mid-top RPM. Post-install, the bottom end is softer just off idle, it is the same as the pre-install up to about 4k RPM, then the heads & cam start peforming. If you are this type of mid-top end rev driver, then this is a good package for you. If you drive off the torque curve only and / or short shift, but you still want more power, then I'd personally suggest a stroker and / or blower for you.

BTW: Depending on your own Plans for your car. If you install a H/C package and you have stock rear gears (I have a M6 / 3.42), you will probably notice a softer bottom end off idle and when reversing. You will need to slip the clutch a little more to get rolling. This was an expected side effect. Those of you who are familiar with "hot rod" mods, this is redundant, but I wanted to state it for the uninitiated here.

Andy does not machine his own heads. He uses West Coast Racing cylinder heads. I spoke to Richard there, and he was very helpful (technically with the various head specs and cam specs) to select the heads for my desired application and future plans. He also was helpful in selecting the cam. I ended up selecting the 224/224 .581 114 LSA. Andy does not personally like to go more aggressive than this (unless you ask him to) due to possible piston - valve clearance concerns. I would also be concerned about the varying quality of our 91 octane pump gas and of course, the dreaded SMOG Inspection. Yes, there's more aggressive cams out there, but we DO live in CA.

IMHO, I feel that Andy does a good job. He basically does basic remove / replace engine work, plus his blower kits and the KEY is that he has the skills & dyno to TUNE the car properly.

Andy out-sources his engines, so if you are planning forged bottom end from him, I highly recommend that you call the actual BUILDER, not the installer. Andy does not BUILD the motors, he installs (including his S/C kits) & tunes. If you want to talk TECH & SPECS for your motor.)

If you are not knowledgeable in TECH and simply have the money to improve the performance of your vehicle, then Andy will do a good job for you. You can simply drop off your car and pick it up when it is ready, just like you would at a dry cleaners. No brainer. If you are the type of person who wants to know the specs of your set up (particularly for future plans, like me) you can get the info and good results at his shop, but you can also find alot of good hi-po shops that set up their OWN motors in-house vs. out sourcing.

The BAD
- Areas of varying levels of dissatisfaction (stated as OBJECTIVELY as possible)

1) 8 paint dings past the clear coat that were not there before. This included a LARGE black mark on the drivers side mirror that I had to use Heavy pressure with a clay bar to remove, and a 2" long scratch on the same mirror.(Andy paid for a bottle of touch up paint)

2) Torn arm rest cover, where the right elbow usually sits when not shifting. (Andy paid to replace the cover.)

3) My H/C install took 3 1/2 weeks because: After the labor was done the 1st time, and tuning began, there was ALOT of KR. Extensive mechanical troubleshooting ensued. The cam was changed. The heads were changed 3 times. The plugs were changed. The fuel was changed and then touched up with Torco. I spoke with alot of people to help troubleshoot. I told Andy that the KR was software based. Ultimately what was discovered is that prior to tuning, the Crank Timing needed to be reset / relearn (sorry I'm not an LS1 Edit expert) because the PCM "thought" that there was 10 degrees more crank timing than actual. Once this got sorted out, the car was tuneable. I was honestly surprised that this procedure was not done initially.

4) I actually WANTED to pay more for upgrading to LS6 heads and I was told that it was too expensive. :confused:

5) I had a ported throttle body that needed to be tuned for proper cold start idle. Andy didn't do this because he said that I didn't ask him to even after he realized that it needed to be tuned out. (Isn't this an opportunity to both provide a service and add a few extra dollars to my invoice? I would have gladly paid extra to have that done :confused: )

6) On the way home after picking the car up. I drove home at "normal" freeway speeds (partly b/c my girlfriend was my ride up to the shop and she has a Civic :rolleyes: ) I got the Check Engine light after about 15 miles from the shop. At this point I was :mad because of all the time that was spent on troubleshooting the car when it was in the shop and NOW they give it to me and I get a LIGHT? Gimme a Break.

7) By the time I would have been able to make it back to Andy's they would have been closed. I took it EZ going home (91 miles 1 way.) When I got home, I immediately scanned my codes and also checked under the hood. I got low voltage readings from my 02 sensors and after some troubleshooting, I determined that my Battery had very low voltage / almost dead. (I have the OE Battery and it sat for 3 1/2 weeks. All they did was jump start it, and with the UD Pulley it didn't charge enough.) I charged the battery and the codes went away under part throttle- to - short WOT runs. Under longer WOT runs, the codes DO come back, relating to the O2 sensors, I have not been able to fully trouble shoot those yet, but under most conditions there are no codes.

8) Inspecting underhood, I was :eek: VERY Surprised to see my IAT sensor Outside the air bridge. I plugged it back in and immediately wondered if my car was Dyno Tuned with the IAT sensor hanging out underhood. This would have slightly affected the input to the PCM and also a little more air would have been sucked through the grommet in the air bridge where the sensor should have been. The air bridge coupler was dirty and the clamps were installed ackwardly. I removed the coupler to straighten the clamps and noted that the inside edges of the coupler were shredded and there were threads showing through. Someone used a tool to force the coupler onto the TB. I was using TR55IX plugs (expensive) and wanted those returned with my other parts. When I inspected the plugs, 2 of 8 had bent ends so that the wires could not be installed. (BTW, Andy installed TR6 plugs. I asked him how frequently he recommended changing them. He said that to him "a plug is a plug and if the plug provides a spark it is fine" IMHO this statement was somewhat concerning.)

9) The areas underhood were dirty, and there was alot of silver anti-seize smears all over the black plastic underhood. I had to use denatured alcohol to clean it all off.

10) They did wash my car when they returned it, but they must have used a Scotch pad on my paint, b/c I had to apply 3 coats of Zaino Z5 to remove the fine scratches and get the paint (Mag Red) back to where it was before the car was at Andy's.

11) The Magnaflow hi-flow CATS were part of the original game plan for the H/C install, but Andy said that his welder could not do this b/c I have TPIS headers. He recommended that I go to a muffler shop. (BTW, it is illegal in CA to change the OE Cats. Period End. Shops knowledgeable about this will NOT change anything, headers, cutting out the pre-Cats, removing the Cats, etc.) There was a small exhaust leak at the ends of the headers and Andy decided to use what looked like a whole tube of copper-based gasket sealer around the headers. This did not work and when underneath the car, it really made the exhaust system look waaaaay cheeseball. :rolleyes: I solved this by installing some quality stainless 4" band clamps.

12) There's actually more to this, but I'm sparing you all, and stopping here. If you want more info, e-mail me: mhdeelite@aol.com

Summary:

The Bottom Line: Did I get the Performance that I expected and paid for? YES, (but I would have paid more for the LS6 heads, for tuning out the cold start idle, etc...) I decided to have the work done at Andy's for his C5 / Z06 reputation and the pricing. I got what I paid for.

Would I go back for more work? Unless I specifically wanted an ATI blower, NO. For me all the other factors took away alot of the fun & excitement of doing the H/C install. I didn't expect to have so many problems afterward and there were some very basic things that provided varying levels if irritation, such as my paint being knicked and scratched up and my interior being torn.

I have plans for a forged stroker N/A motor and I will have the motor build, installed and tuned by another shop that does all their own work in-house.

I do not want this to be interpreted as a flame on Andy. He is a good guy and he does strive for customer service. I am simply relating my own experience in answering the original question on this thread. :chevy

NYtoCA

Would i go to Andy's? Well lets just say when my MMS package dies i'll have Andy fix the mess. :lol:

mdhmi

Fair and balanced reporting for a change. Good job. Good point about the battery issues with the UD pulley. All in all, a net gain of 71 rwhp for $3,500 ($49 per hp) is really doing quite well.

Mark

John Nowak PE

We have his stage II LS1 heads and 224/224 .581/.581 114 LSA cam package on our car. Have had it for over a year and over 15k miles on it. Our car runs fine and still gets 30 mpg cruising at 80-85 on the highway. At low rpm, the car runs nearly stock; I really can't tell much of a difference. Once you get above 2,100 rpm's the cam really kicks in :eek: Idle is a little lopey and the car does shake a little. Exhaust sounds a little deeper and may be a little louder than stock (no exhaust mods yet).

Oh, and all this WITHOUT any PCM tuning. With tuning, I'm sure the idle will smooth out substantially.

We bought the parts from Andy and Ken F's crew installed them when they re-ringed our car. One of these days we'll be taking a road trip to Andy's for a good tune :thumbs:

NVR BRNG

Sorry, but the above observation to my post is a misconception. The H/C package from Andy was in fact $3,500: Milled LS1 Heads of your choice, Comp Cam of your choice, double roller timing chain, labor & tuning. That package probably would have been good for approx. 60 RWHP.

I UPGRADED (AKA: More Dollars) using the MTI underdrive pulley, NGK TR6 plugs - 1 step colder, '04 LS6 Fuel Injectors. These additional mods on top of the H/C package is what got me to +71 RWHP over baseline.

Addendum to the HP and TQ numbers vs. baseline: I was told from Richard (machinist who did the heads) and Andy to expect +50 RWTQ, but I only picked up +30 RWTQ.

While the car was there I had them install a new Fuel Filter, and L.O.F. with Mobile 1 (they installed a generic oil filter), and added Andy's Rocker Rails.

For the basic $3,500 H/C package ONLY (their head & cam choices) don't expect +70 RWHP, or you will likely be disappointed.

NVR BRNG

Particulary if you get your car tuned, you should realize a nice gain. I'm guessing that Montana pump premium fuel is higher octane than we have here in CA (questionable 91 pump gas) and as such, your tuner can add more timing. My guess is that with 93 pump gas vs. 91 pump gas you can add approx. 3 degrees and when you advance timing, that is something you can feel SOTP.

Invest in a good dyno tune. If you can find a good tuner, ask them what kind of dyno they have. The Dynojets are prevalent and cheap, unless they are set up to put a LOAD on the rear wheels, they are actually just acceleromters, not true Dynomometers. The Dynojets that I've seen in So. CA are just accelerometers and somehow, this is the "standard" by which people on this Forum are going by.

hltambur

Sorry to hear about your experience NVR BRNG. I picked up my car at Andy's this past Saturday, and drove it home without any problems. The trip back to Sacramento was over 400 miles, and the car ran solid the whole way.

Andy didn't run a before dyno, so I don't have a way to compare the before/after hp gain. My car had a Breathless Performance ramer w/power coupler, corsa exhaust w/x-pipe and a cooling bypass before the HC and 4.10 install. After the install, my car dyno'd at 355 hp. I'm assuming a bone stock '02 6spd coupe should dyno around 280-290 rwhp? If I hadn't done the 4.10 gears too, I'm not sure the H/C install (w/out headers) would have felt like a significant power gain.

All in all, my experience was very positive. My advise to everyone else is this, if you want your car to be crazy quick, go with the SC right away. If you want to give your car a small, but noticable kick in the pants, the HC is a great way to go. I've spent well over $12K in various mods (not all performance mods), but do not have half the power of an SC. If I'd known what I know now, I would have done only one mod --> SC. Someday, I hope to take my car back to Andy for that :yesnod:


[Modified by hltambur, 10:36 PM 5/18/2004]

NVR BRNG

A stock MN6 car should dyno (on a Dynojet) in the 300+ RWHP range. Yeah, by going w/ 4.10s, your HP numbers are down, but you know that's just function of the gear change. It has nothing to do with the power produced by your motor.

I'm surprised that Andy didn't recommend headers with your H/C package. I wouldn't have done a H/C without LT headers (I already had LT headers before the H/C install)

Install a set of LT headers (the LGs seem to be the current hot ticket in LT headers for LSx cars) and a new tune, you should see a healthy improvement over your OE exhaust manifolds.

A blown set up is nice, and having big HP numbers are impressive, but a blower is more maintenance, more weight and more stress on the motor(especially a stock bottom end). It will break down the oil faster too. There are also driving habit adjustments. With a blower on an LSx car, you are looking at "rolling on" the throttle, b/c if you floor it, it is likely to break the tires loose even in a higher gear. You'll be looking at alot more $$ than just the blower and install: BRAKE UPGRADE, clutch, tires, this just for starters. Your cost for the blower, install & tune won't stop after the install.....

Another thought is: for equivalent dollars spent, you could have a forged stroker motor built, a 383, 409, 418, 427, etc. You will have a lower maintenance and (probably) more reliable motor with similar HP numbers vs. a blower on a stock bottom end. If you go this way, and you frequently drive your car, go with a 383 or 409, when you go Big Inch, you are creating a Gas Hog along with a high output motor.

:chevy

John Nowak PE

MT has similar, crappy 91 Octane gas :nonod: I will invest in a good dyno tune some day. We don't have anyone in my area that can do it. Actually, there is only one "car" dyno in Billings and they won't guarantee that a Vette will fit on it :banghead: :banghead:

I've also decided to wait to tune it until after I add headers and cat-back system. That way I don't have to tune it again. Right now we have very good gains with this package, even with the stock exhaust and just an 02 ZO6 airbox lid.

hltambur

Any idea how much the 4.10 gears would have brought down the hp on the dyno? If I went from 3.42 to 4.10 gears, and the dyno showed 355 hp with the 4.10s, what do you suppose my car's hp would likely be without the 4.10s? I'm just looking for a rough estimate. I love the 4.10 gears. They certainly make my car easier to drive from a dead stop, and the car drives well on the freeway (I found I was not down shifting as often).

Being from CA, and not wanting to battle the smog police, I decided to go without headers. Shorties, I'm told, are not worth the money. Andy did tell me if I went with LT headers, he would have put in a more agressive cam, and he believed I could have seen an additional 30-40 hp gain with that configuration. Since I didn't want headers, but I still wanted a good performance gain (and I didn't have $10k to spend on SC, clutch, and high output shaft), the 218 cam, heads, and gears seemed to be the best choice for me at this time.


[Modified by hltambur, 5:08 PM 5/19/2004]