Engine cleanup
#1
Intermediate
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Engine cleanup
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines? I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy. I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines? I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy. I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
#2
Le Mans Master
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines?
I have not.. But will be watching your thread to learn from those that have.
I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy.
Inherently noisy and lifter pecking is a different color for me.
You might try a different brand of full synthetic oil and or a different weight...
I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines?
I have not.. But will be watching your thread to learn from those that have.
I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy.
Inherently noisy and lifter pecking is a different color for me.
You might try a different brand of full synthetic oil and or a different weight...
I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
Last edited by 73Corvette; 03-26-2015 at 10:30 AM.
#3
Racer
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines? I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy. I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines? I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy. I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
#4
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I'm an old MoPar gearhead use to playing with Big Block's. This LS1 business is new to me. So You're telling me I have adjustable Hydraulic drivetrain in my LS1? I just drive and enjoy my Vette, I have my wife's BMW X5 for maintenance worries. I have never had the need to look up LS1 issues before, they're pretty damn reliable.
#5
Le Mans Master
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I have done both and even used Amsoil Engine flush. Not sure I noticed any difference though. I do like to use the Seafoam as a top end cleaner sucking it through a vacuum port into the intake.
#6
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So a buddy of mine who was an Automotive Engineer sent me this:
http://www.rjsmith.com/gm-1206539.html
I got the car at 20k miles on it and now have approx 82k and all along it has made the same noise. Maybe my step dad didn't care about it when was new, or he didn't notice it.
http://www.rjsmith.com/gm-1206539.html
I got the car at 20k miles on it and now have approx 82k and all along it has made the same noise. Maybe my step dad didn't care about it when was new, or he didn't notice it.
#7
Le Mans Master
So a buddy of mine who was an Automotive Engineer sent me this:
http://www.rjsmith.com/gm-1206539.html
I got the car at 20k miles on it and now have approx 82k and all along it has made the same noise. Maybe my step dad didn't care about it when was new, or he didn't notice it.
http://www.rjsmith.com/gm-1206539.html
I got the car at 20k miles on it and now have approx 82k and all along it has made the same noise. Maybe my step dad didn't care about it when was new, or he didn't notice it.
#8
Team Owner
Of course I'm speaking of OE assemblies. This can (possibly) change when people modify by using aftermarket parts, i.e. valves, springs, pushrods, rocker arms, etc.
HTH
#9
Le Mans Master
I'm an old MoPar gearhead use to playing with Big Block's. This LS1 business is new to me. So You're telling me I have adjustable Hydraulic drivetrain in my LS1? I just drive and enjoy my Vette, I have my wife's BMW X5 for maintenance worries. I have never had the need to look up LS1 issues before, they're pretty damn reliable.
Question...the stock LS1 comes with Hydraulic Roller Lifters and Roller Rockers and the only adjustment is the torque?
Last edited by 73Corvette; 03-26-2015 at 08:47 PM.
#10
Team Owner
For the record here, we are now speaking primarily of rocker arm/pushrod/lifter components and not "valves", correct?
#11
Le Mans Master
IIRC, that torque value sounds correct, but LS engines do not have a history of rocker arm bolts "backing off" or "loosening". The rocker arm needle bearings are more likely to fail (introducing slop that can be very damaging), than any backing off of a bolt.
For the record here, we are now speaking primarily of rocker arm/pushrod/lifter components and not "valves", correct?
For the record here, we are now speaking primarily of rocker arm/pushrod/lifter components and not "valves", correct?
Thank you for your patience and help.
#12
Le Mans Master
This helped me
What Causes a Lifter to Make Noise
There are a number of issues that can cause a lifter to become noisy on startup, or even all the time. Here are some of the more common ones and I’ll go into more detail later in this write-up;
Wrong valvetrain geometry
Lack of supply oil
Debris in the lifter
Before going into details of the causes listed above, an understanding of the reason why we use hydraulic lifters would be helpful.
Why do we use hydraulic lifters? Couldn’t we just use solid, nonadjustable lifters? The answer is yes, and many engines used for racing, aircraft, lawnmowers and such run with solid lifters. The advantages of running solid include reduced valvetrain mass (racing, aircraft), lower cost (lawnmowers). The disadvantage, clearance adjustments are critical for proper valvetrain operation and have to be checked on a regular schedule. This clearance adjustment requires a number of factors to be taken into account to pick the proper numbers. They include thermal growth and wear. The set clearance needs to be adjusted as the engine accumulates time due to normal wear and erosion of valve face and seat. There is a procedure that needs to be followed to set the initial clearance and for the scheduled checks.
The advantage of the hydraulic lifter is easy to understand. Properly setup they will self-adjust for wear and erosion over the life of the engine without any manual adjustments.
I won’t go into the detailed history of the hydraulic lifter other than to say it was one of the biggest advancements to the four stroke engine.
The current hydraulic lifters are nothing short of amazing. The machining and assembly details are astonishing feats. They have the tightest and most detailed specifications used in the LS engines compared to all the other engine components.
So, how can any manufacture mass produce something with these demanding specifications? Just holding tight machining tolerances isn’t good enough. The only way this can be pulled off is using select fit builds. After the machining and cleaning, each component of a lifter, is measured and cataloged in a computer inventory. During assembly the computer will match the proper parts to achieve a perfect fit. Then each assembled piece goes through a series of test to insure proper operation. Part of continuous improvement, the tolerances once reserved for high performance engines, like the LS7, or LS9 are now shared for ALL LS engines. If you order from a dealer a set of hydraulic lifters for your 10 year old plus LS1, you will receive the same exact lifter found in a new LS7, or LS9. Some folks that market so called “performance lifters” might not want you to know this little fun fact.
Noise due to wrong valvetrain geometry
The modern hydraulic lifter is capable of operation in a large dimensional range compared to any solid lifter. This range is about 2.5mm (.098”). Anything out of this range can make noise. Things that cause this include improper valvetrain geometry, failed components like cam lobe, or rocker, and even a bent push rod. A weak or broken valve spring may cause the valvetrain components to be out of phase with each other allowing them to separate and impact as they crash together again.
Noise due to lack of supply oil
One of the side benefits of the hydraulic lifter, due to their sensitivity to oil pressure, they are one of the first clues that your engine has lost oil pressure. The lifter noise made when there isn’t adequate oil will get the attention of even the non-mechanical folks. Just by the sound they know something bad is happening. Shutting down the engine soon enough can save it.
Other reasons for lack of oil include bad oil pump, stuck oil pump relief valve, low oil level, or something wrong with the oil pickup tube system.
Noise due to oil aeration
This might still falls under lack of supply oil. Oil is capable of holding air in suspension. At high engine rpms the windage from the crankshaft and other moving components can aerate the oil enough that once the engine is shutdown, the oil inside the lifters can release this entrapped air into the high pressure chamber of the lifter. Now, on the next cold start the lifters can compress enough to allow valvetrain components to separate during initial start and clatter for a short time until the air works its way out. Normally this only takes 30 seconds to no more than 2 minutes.
Debris in the lifter
This is far less common compared to other reason for lifter noise. In fact I’ve only seen this on new builds. The lifters found with this issue were traced back to plastic fragments matching the lifter carrier. When the lifter is inserted in the carrier the body of the lifter could scrape plastic off and fall into the pushrod sock. The part I never could understand is how this could find its way down into the high pressure chamber of the lifter.
What Causes a Lifter to Make Noise
There are a number of issues that can cause a lifter to become noisy on startup, or even all the time. Here are some of the more common ones and I’ll go into more detail later in this write-up;
Wrong valvetrain geometry
Lack of supply oil
Debris in the lifter
Before going into details of the causes listed above, an understanding of the reason why we use hydraulic lifters would be helpful.
Why do we use hydraulic lifters? Couldn’t we just use solid, nonadjustable lifters? The answer is yes, and many engines used for racing, aircraft, lawnmowers and such run with solid lifters. The advantages of running solid include reduced valvetrain mass (racing, aircraft), lower cost (lawnmowers). The disadvantage, clearance adjustments are critical for proper valvetrain operation and have to be checked on a regular schedule. This clearance adjustment requires a number of factors to be taken into account to pick the proper numbers. They include thermal growth and wear. The set clearance needs to be adjusted as the engine accumulates time due to normal wear and erosion of valve face and seat. There is a procedure that needs to be followed to set the initial clearance and for the scheduled checks.
The advantage of the hydraulic lifter is easy to understand. Properly setup they will self-adjust for wear and erosion over the life of the engine without any manual adjustments.
I won’t go into the detailed history of the hydraulic lifter other than to say it was one of the biggest advancements to the four stroke engine.
The current hydraulic lifters are nothing short of amazing. The machining and assembly details are astonishing feats. They have the tightest and most detailed specifications used in the LS engines compared to all the other engine components.
So, how can any manufacture mass produce something with these demanding specifications? Just holding tight machining tolerances isn’t good enough. The only way this can be pulled off is using select fit builds. After the machining and cleaning, each component of a lifter, is measured and cataloged in a computer inventory. During assembly the computer will match the proper parts to achieve a perfect fit. Then each assembled piece goes through a series of test to insure proper operation. Part of continuous improvement, the tolerances once reserved for high performance engines, like the LS7, or LS9 are now shared for ALL LS engines. If you order from a dealer a set of hydraulic lifters for your 10 year old plus LS1, you will receive the same exact lifter found in a new LS7, or LS9. Some folks that market so called “performance lifters” might not want you to know this little fun fact.
Noise due to wrong valvetrain geometry
The modern hydraulic lifter is capable of operation in a large dimensional range compared to any solid lifter. This range is about 2.5mm (.098”). Anything out of this range can make noise. Things that cause this include improper valvetrain geometry, failed components like cam lobe, or rocker, and even a bent push rod. A weak or broken valve spring may cause the valvetrain components to be out of phase with each other allowing them to separate and impact as they crash together again.
Noise due to lack of supply oil
One of the side benefits of the hydraulic lifter, due to their sensitivity to oil pressure, they are one of the first clues that your engine has lost oil pressure. The lifter noise made when there isn’t adequate oil will get the attention of even the non-mechanical folks. Just by the sound they know something bad is happening. Shutting down the engine soon enough can save it.
Other reasons for lack of oil include bad oil pump, stuck oil pump relief valve, low oil level, or something wrong with the oil pickup tube system.
Noise due to oil aeration
This might still falls under lack of supply oil. Oil is capable of holding air in suspension. At high engine rpms the windage from the crankshaft and other moving components can aerate the oil enough that once the engine is shutdown, the oil inside the lifters can release this entrapped air into the high pressure chamber of the lifter. Now, on the next cold start the lifters can compress enough to allow valvetrain components to separate during initial start and clatter for a short time until the air works its way out. Normally this only takes 30 seconds to no more than 2 minutes.
Debris in the lifter
This is far less common compared to other reason for lifter noise. In fact I’ve only seen this on new builds. The lifters found with this issue were traced back to plastic fragments matching the lifter carrier. When the lifter is inserted in the carrier the body of the lifter could scrape plastic off and fall into the pushrod sock. The part I never could understand is how this could find its way down into the high pressure chamber of the lifter.
#13
Le Mans Master
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines? I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy. I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
I'm wondering if anyone here on the C5 forum has run Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam through there crankcase to clean up their engines? I have a LS1 with about 82k on my C5 and it makes some lifter noise in the morning and after warm up. I heard that these engines are inherently noisy. I'm within 3% of an oil change and need to figure something out soon. TIA
Of course the other end of the broom handle is put on your ear..
A LONG screw drive works well too..
You can usually get right on top of the culprit and have a really good idea what to expect when you pull a cover. Works well for other noises/sounds also especially the ones that travel...
Last edited by 73Corvette; 03-26-2015 at 09:03 PM.
#14
Team Owner
Check Amazon if interested.
#15
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Apr 2001
Location: Was New Orleans but swam to Baton Rouge LA
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Cruise-In IX Veteran
The LS series of engines also have noisy fuel injectors. It could be those just as much as the lifters. A mechanics stethoscope would be a good tool to try and pinpoint the noise.
#16
Le Mans Master
Is that a fancy word for broom handle?
#17
Team Owner
I'm not sure to what degree, if any, this practice has continued with the OE LS7s or LS3.
#19
Premium Supporting Vendor
If your car has had regular oil changes with a decent synthetic, I don't see the value in a flush. I personally have never used one.
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C66 Racing #66 NASA ST2, SCCA T2
AMSOIL Dealer (Forum Vendor)
AMSOIL Ordering Information (Retail sales using reference #1206638 benefit the forum.)
AMSOIL Preferred Customer Program (Members buy at Wholesale - a savings of about 25%)
AMSOIL Catalog