Explanation of the C5 drivetrain?
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Explanation of the C5 drivetrain?
I'm involved with a running argument with someone about the drivetrain of the Corvette, and he posted his thoughts on things such as drivetrain movement that I figure I should get some feedback about.
Heck, maybe I don't know a darn thing about such things and am all wet about my opinions. So heck, let me know what you guys think:
The reason for this discussion is concern over a driveshaft that is 7mm longer than it should be and the prudence of putting such a driveshaft into a C5.
Heck, maybe I don't know a darn thing about such things and am all wet about my opinions. So heck, let me know what you guys think:
Rich, you asked about where "flex" is built into the system to accomodate manufacturer variences and tolerances, as well as drive train movement...
I'll try to keep this simple
1. Lift your hood
2. push sideways on you engine and observe how much it moves (its mounted on rubber bushings)
3. start your car while on a lift and have someone rev the gas while looking underneath at the whole drive train from engine to differential
the trans and diff are also mounted on rubber bushings (unless you have upgraded yo poly bushings, in which case there will be less "flex" but it will still be there)
The entire drivetrain is mounted to the car via flexable bushing so it can move and flex within acceptable tolerances for the power levels it was built at.
there is so much flex built into a stock car that companies like pfadt, ecs, hinson etc., build and offer braces and upgraded bushings to reduce flex, as increasing power levels can cause so much flex that it can break stuff, but even these upgraded systems still have flex built into them, as no flex at all causes stuff to break.
so, too little flex and stuff breaks, too much flex created by high power levels causes stuff to break, leaving a drivetrain unbolted together while getting into the skinny pedal on an LME built 427 twin turbo setup....., yep, you guessed it, causes stuff to break....the 3 or so millimeters of extra length on the driveshaft on each end for your application would more than easliy be absorbed by the continual flex of the drivetrain system, even if you have upgraded bushings, mounts, etc..
so, the whole drivetrain system is mounted to the car on flexible bushings that allow several inches of play front to back...both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft is well within the movement tolerances of the drivetrain, that regularly moves several inches all on its own (compressing the engine and transmission together, as well as torquing and twisting) in stock configuration.
In fact, where people break stuff like drive shafts, is when they do things like put in solid, nonflexible metal Guibo's that CANNOT flex, and then you break stuff (or alternately, you don't bolt you drive train back together then run 800+ hp through it )
Jarek, when making the flex plates, be sure to make them in a way that they can flex slightly, this is why the ***** flex plates are made from a steel that can flex and why they have thinner areas alternating with thicker areas...not too complicated but important.
Back to Rich....The whole drivetrain is designed to move and flex and handle small part size variances and movement, however, if one wanted to be extra safe, and remove some material to make a better custom fit, then you don't remove material from the drive shaft, as this would compromise its structural integrity. Where the shafts mount to the shafts on the car there is 12-15 millimeters of material at the connection points where everything bolts together, 2-3 millimeters of material can be carefully removed from each end (front and back of car), without compromising enough torsional strength to matter on anything under 2000 ft lbs of torque.
if you are over 2000 ft lbs of torque you need all custom machined parts anyway, and you will still break stuff, thats just how it is with REALLY big HP/Torque apps.
Hope this helps :-)
***Irrelevant text deleted***
I'll try to keep this simple
1. Lift your hood
2. push sideways on you engine and observe how much it moves (its mounted on rubber bushings)
3. start your car while on a lift and have someone rev the gas while looking underneath at the whole drive train from engine to differential
the trans and diff are also mounted on rubber bushings (unless you have upgraded yo poly bushings, in which case there will be less "flex" but it will still be there)
The entire drivetrain is mounted to the car via flexable bushing so it can move and flex within acceptable tolerances for the power levels it was built at.
there is so much flex built into a stock car that companies like pfadt, ecs, hinson etc., build and offer braces and upgraded bushings to reduce flex, as increasing power levels can cause so much flex that it can break stuff, but even these upgraded systems still have flex built into them, as no flex at all causes stuff to break.
so, too little flex and stuff breaks, too much flex created by high power levels causes stuff to break, leaving a drivetrain unbolted together while getting into the skinny pedal on an LME built 427 twin turbo setup....., yep, you guessed it, causes stuff to break....the 3 or so millimeters of extra length on the driveshaft on each end for your application would more than easliy be absorbed by the continual flex of the drivetrain system, even if you have upgraded bushings, mounts, etc..
so, the whole drivetrain system is mounted to the car on flexible bushings that allow several inches of play front to back...both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft is well within the movement tolerances of the drivetrain, that regularly moves several inches all on its own (compressing the engine and transmission together, as well as torquing and twisting) in stock configuration.
In fact, where people break stuff like drive shafts, is when they do things like put in solid, nonflexible metal Guibo's that CANNOT flex, and then you break stuff (or alternately, you don't bolt you drive train back together then run 800+ hp through it )
Jarek, when making the flex plates, be sure to make them in a way that they can flex slightly, this is why the ***** flex plates are made from a steel that can flex and why they have thinner areas alternating with thicker areas...not too complicated but important.
Back to Rich....The whole drivetrain is designed to move and flex and handle small part size variances and movement, however, if one wanted to be extra safe, and remove some material to make a better custom fit, then you don't remove material from the drive shaft, as this would compromise its structural integrity. Where the shafts mount to the shafts on the car there is 12-15 millimeters of material at the connection points where everything bolts together, 2-3 millimeters of material can be carefully removed from each end (front and back of car), without compromising enough torsional strength to matter on anything under 2000 ft lbs of torque.
if you are over 2000 ft lbs of torque you need all custom machined parts anyway, and you will still break stuff, thats just how it is with REALLY big HP/Torque apps.
Hope this helps :-)
***Irrelevant text deleted***
Last edited by Rich Z; 01-18-2013 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Vendor name removed, as that is not the direction desired for this discussion.
#4
Instructor
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: Rantoul IL
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do I think? I think it is ridiculous to get into an argument, concerning any subject matter, in which you know absolutely NOTHING. Then you're going to reach out to the Tech section, so you can start a bunch of $hit, and actually learn something? Silly.
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
You could just have saved a whole bunch of typing and simply said "I don't know."
#6
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
Received 845 Likes
on
721 Posts
OK, the guy has no clue. The C5 has a torque tube which quite solidly connects the engine and transmission together. If the drive shaft length is 7mm longer then the shaft either needs to be able to slide 7mm further into the clutch or it needs to have 7mm of give at the torque converter coupling sleeve. There are rubber based couplers in the shaft and it's possible they could be compressed some small amount too. The back end of the shaft is connected to a rather solid 2 bearing housing which gets mounted to the torque tube so no "give" is possible at that end. If the shaft length can't be accomodated then the drive shaft will be forcing the crank forward at one end and the rear torque tube bearing carrier backwards at the other end. The likely end result would be damage to or failure of the thrust bearing in the engine.
This clown needs to explain how the big aluminum tube bolted between the engine and transmission together allows "several inches of play front to back" or how "both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft" or how "compressing the engine and transmission together" is possible.
Besides that, I've never seen a drivetrain properly mounted that had several inches of movement as he seems to be stating.
This clown needs to explain how the big aluminum tube bolted between the engine and transmission together allows "several inches of play front to back" or how "both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft" or how "compressing the engine and transmission together" is possible.
Besides that, I've never seen a drivetrain properly mounted that had several inches of movement as he seems to be stating.
Last edited by lionelhutz; 01-18-2013 at 10:14 AM.
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
OK, the guy has no clue. The C5 has a torque tube which quite solidly connects the engine and transmission together. If the drive shaft length is 7mm longer then the shaft either needs to be able to slide 7mm further into the clutch or it needs to have 7mm of give at the torque converter coupling sleeve. There are rubber based couplers in the shaft and it's possible they could be compressed some small amount too. The back end of the shaft is connected to a rather solid 2 bearing housing which gets mounted to the torque tube so no "give" is possible at that end. If the shaft length can't be accomodated then the drive shaft will be forcing the crank forward at one end and the rear torque tube bearing carrier backwards at the other end. The likely end result would be damage to or failure of the thrust bearing in the engine.
This clown needs to explain how the big aluminum tube bolted between the engine and transmission together allows "several inches of play front to back" or how "both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft" or how "compressing the engine and transmission together" is possible.
Besides that, I've never seen a drivetrain properly mounted that had several inches of movement as he seems to be stating.
This clown needs to explain how the big aluminum tube bolted between the engine and transmission together allows "several inches of play front to back" or how "both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft" or how "compressing the engine and transmission together" is possible.
Besides that, I've never seen a drivetrain properly mounted that had several inches of movement as he seems to be stating.
Thanks.
#8
Race Director
If it's on the inteweb...it has to be true.
A prop shaft that is too long will push the crank forward and trash the thrust surface on the crank an block. Not a good thing at all.
A prop shaft that is too long will push the crank forward and trash the thrust surface on the crank an block. Not a good thing at all.
#9
This clown needs to explain how the big aluminum tube bolted between the engine and transmission together allows "several inches of play front to back" or how "both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft" or how "compressing the engine and transmission together" is possible.
Front to back .. no
Side to side or rather around the axis defined by the crankshaft, fw, clutch, etc. .. yes everything is designed to flex slightly but not inches though, fractions of an inch maybe
#11
Safety Car
The stock mounts do move, but I doubt you can grab the engine and move it more than 1/16" with your hands. Gads zooks.
I'm sure the factory keeps the compliance of the engine mounts matched to the trans mount so as not to allow the tortional forces to be exerted on the torque tube. But to think things can move inches is nuts.
Ron
I'm sure the factory keeps the compliance of the engine mounts matched to the trans mount so as not to allow the tortional forces to be exerted on the torque tube. But to think things can move inches is nuts.
Ron
#14
Traditionally the term "driveshaft" refers to the output shaft from a transmission which is utilizing the gear reduction or multiplication of said transmission. The shaft inside the torque tube is more typically referred to as a propeller or "prop" shaft and it turns in lock-step with the crank. These terms are both often used interchangeably however.
#15
Drifting
Thread Starter
Traditionally the term "driveshaft" refers to the output shaft from a transmission which is utilizing the gear reduction or multiplication of said transmission. The shaft inside the torque tube is more typically referred to as a propeller or "prop" shaft and it turns in lock-step with the crank. These terms are both often used interchangeably however.
#16
Team Owner
Synonymous with driveshaft - VERY common
Choose a Section.
00 - Engine
01 - Cooling System, Grille, Oil System
02 - Chassis Wiring, Lamps
03 - Fuel System, Exhaust, Carburetion, Emissions
04 - Transmission, Brakes
05 - Brakes, Rear Axle, Propeller Shaft, Wheels
06 - Front Suspension, Steering
07 - Frames, Springs, Shocks, Bumpers
08 - Front End Sheet Metal, Heater
09 - Body Mounting, Air Conditioning, Instrument Cluster
10 - Doors, Regulators, Windshield, Wiper, Washer
11 - Rear Glass, Seat Parts, Adjuster
12 - Body Moldings, Sheet Metal, Luggage
14 - Interior Trim, Seat Belts
15 - Rear Seat Trim, Carpet
18 - Normal Maintenance Parts, Fluids, Capacities, New Model Parts, Electrical Connectors
21 - Accessories
16 ***456207 SHAFT PROP,(PART OF 12)(INCLS 22-24,26-33,35-39) (NOT AVAILABLE) Y (MM6)
00 - Engine
01 - Cooling System, Grille, Oil System
02 - Chassis Wiring, Lamps
03 - Fuel System, Exhaust, Carburetion, Emissions
04 - Transmission, Brakes
05 - Brakes, Rear Axle, Propeller Shaft, Wheels
06 - Front Suspension, Steering
07 - Frames, Springs, Shocks, Bumpers
08 - Front End Sheet Metal, Heater
09 - Body Mounting, Air Conditioning, Instrument Cluster
10 - Doors, Regulators, Windshield, Wiper, Washer
11 - Rear Glass, Seat Parts, Adjuster
12 - Body Moldings, Sheet Metal, Luggage
14 - Interior Trim, Seat Belts
15 - Rear Seat Trim, Carpet
18 - Normal Maintenance Parts, Fluids, Capacities, New Model Parts, Electrical Connectors
21 - Accessories
16 ***456207 SHAFT PROP,(PART OF 12)(INCLS 22-24,26-33,35-39) (NOT AVAILABLE) Y (MM6)
#17
Drifting
Thread Starter
Man, I dunno.. The word "propeller" just sounds wrong in so many ways.
"Driveshaft" sounds SO much more manly and appropriate.
So I don't know about you guys, but my cars have driveshafts, not propellers.
"Driveshaft" sounds SO much more manly and appropriate.
So I don't know about you guys, but my cars have driveshafts, not propellers.
#18
Melting Slicks
First a disclaimer: I found this on a couple of Internet sites. I am not an expert on these particular issues.
Question:
What is the difference between a drive shaft and a prop shaft in the automotive world?
Answer:
1) Drive-shafts are used on FWD but Prop-Shafts are used on RWD or 4WD.2)A Drive-Shaft has final drive via a CV joint but a Prop-Shaft has final drive via a Differential.3)A Drive-Shaft is smaller, lighter and saves space by not having a transmition tunnel.
Question:
What is the difference between a drive shaft and a prop shaft in the automotive world?
Answer:
1) Drive-shafts are used on FWD but Prop-Shafts are used on RWD or 4WD.2)A Drive-Shaft has final drive via a CV joint but a Prop-Shaft has final drive via a Differential.3)A Drive-Shaft is smaller, lighter and saves space by not having a transmition tunnel.
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
Hey, they have chosen to deflect around my original questions. I'm just going with the flow.....
Last edited by Rich Z; 01-18-2013 at 07:39 PM.