Cometic gasket/oil burning problems
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Cometic gasket/oil burning problems
I have .040 cometic gaskets that I am using on a 97 ls1 with lingenfleter edlebrock heads and arp head bolts.
I had a very hard time getting the passenger side to stop leaking coolant, but after the 4th retorque, it stopped.
When I start the car up and run it, after the initial idle, there is blue smoke coming from the exhaust especially when it starts surging with the cam (or because of the oil in the cyl).
My first suspicion is (of course) the head that was so hards to seal is leaking oil into the cylinder.
My second thought is that I could have a bad valve seal as I had the patriot dual extreme kit installed by a local machine shop that milled the heads. I have not herd of patriot seals leaking oil. The last head I herd had a problem like this was the PRC ported darts.
Thirdly and most unlikely, is the PCV system is modified to work on my 97 and but is the center bolt configuration. Could I be sucking too many vapors and causing oil burning necause my hose doesn't come from the valley cover but rather the 2 valve covers. I guess this is easy enough to eliminate by disconnecting the hoses from the TB.
I'm going to check the spark plugs to see if there is evidence of fouling.
Any other simple checks I can perform to help narrow down where the source is coming from?
Any experience or comment is welcome
I had a very hard time getting the passenger side to stop leaking coolant, but after the 4th retorque, it stopped.
When I start the car up and run it, after the initial idle, there is blue smoke coming from the exhaust especially when it starts surging with the cam (or because of the oil in the cyl).
My first suspicion is (of course) the head that was so hards to seal is leaking oil into the cylinder.
My second thought is that I could have a bad valve seal as I had the patriot dual extreme kit installed by a local machine shop that milled the heads. I have not herd of patriot seals leaking oil. The last head I herd had a problem like this was the PRC ported darts.
Thirdly and most unlikely, is the PCV system is modified to work on my 97 and but is the center bolt configuration. Could I be sucking too many vapors and causing oil burning necause my hose doesn't come from the valley cover but rather the 2 valve covers. I guess this is easy enough to eliminate by disconnecting the hoses from the TB.
I'm going to check the spark plugs to see if there is evidence of fouling.
Any other simple checks I can perform to help narrow down where the source is coming from?
Any experience or comment is welcome
#2
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St. Jude Donor '03
Did you use thread sealant on the rocker arm bolts?
If not, go back and do so. With most ported heads, the rocker boltholes extend into the intake runners. If you don't seal the threads when installing the rocker bolts, oil will seep down through the threads, and drip right onto the intake valve, causing a lot of oil burning at startup.
If not, go back and do so. With most ported heads, the rocker boltholes extend into the intake runners. If you don't seal the threads when installing the rocker bolts, oil will seep down through the threads, and drip right onto the intake valve, causing a lot of oil burning at startup.
#3
Safety Car
Did you use thread sealant on the rocker arm bolts?
If not, go back and do so. With most ported heads, the rocker boltholes extend into the intake runners. If you don't seal the threads when installing the rocker bolts, oil will seep down through the threads, and drip right onto the intake valve, causing a lot of oil burning at startup.
If not, go back and do so. With most ported heads, the rocker boltholes extend into the intake runners. If you don't seal the threads when installing the rocker bolts, oil will seep down through the threads, and drip right onto the intake valve, causing a lot of oil burning at startup.
If you want to you can pull the plugs to see which one or more is causing the smoke if you did the sealant thing. Also, not sure if your PCV is hooked up right. You should have one hose going between the throttle body and the passenger valve cover. If you have the old style PCV you should have a port at the back of the drivers valve cover that goes around the back to a 'Y' connection and connects to one leg of that. The next leg of the 'Y' should go to the rear facing hose barb on the cover, and the last leg should go to your PCV valve which should be connected to the intake manifold right behind the throttle body. If it's not hooked up like that you may be correct in the thinking that your PCV is pulling excessive oil into the intake.
#4
Safety Car
I did not seal these threads and will do so, I have a lot of different types of gasket makers, and thread locks, but not, per say, thread sealent short of teflon tape which would seem to heat up, melt, and make a mess.
Would this cause the problem while the car is running too?
I mean every time I stop and idle (i'm lucky if I can keep it at idle) I see the smoke trailing from behind my car.
Would this cause the problem while the car is running too?
I mean every time I stop and idle (i'm lucky if I can keep it at idle) I see the smoke trailing from behind my car.
#6
Drifting
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St. Jude Donor '07
I recently installed AFR's and yes, the rocker bolt on the intake side needs to be sealed as the hole extends into the port. I picked up some silicone sealent (kind like a paste) from the auto parts store, usually hanging on the same shelf as thread lock.
I also had a coolant leak - solved that by coating the gaskets with copper gasket sealant and redoing everything.
Good luck!
I also had a coolant leak - solved that by coating the gaskets with copper gasket sealant and redoing everything.
Good luck!
#8
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I think I have the coolant leak nailed
I hope sealing these studs does the trick, seems to be unanimous here. I know the intake rocker bolts extend into the port, I debated about cutting them to shorten them.
I didn't cut them.
I hope sealing these studs does the trick, seems to be unanimous here. I know the intake rocker bolts extend into the port, I debated about cutting them to shorten them.
I didn't cut them.
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I'm not clear on why the intake manifold would have oil in it short of what get sucked in from the PCV system?
Last edited by dmiz0420; 06-02-2008 at 08:59 PM.
#10
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It was only on one side. I really thought I was being maticulous, using a razor blade to shave and clean old gasket material off where needed and a shop cloth to polish it up.
I retorqued the heads the first time and ther were definately some loose bolts on the bottom row. after it still leaked I backed them all off 1/8 turn and hit them again. There was ever so slight a drip, maybe from when I loosened them all again, so I retorqued to a higher setting.
Where I went wrong originally is using the Permetex assembly lube instead of either 10w-30 or ARP moley lube. So the initial torque sequence was done at 80 ft lbs rather than at 85. I split the difference as the ARP instruction said to torque it to 85 ftlb with 10w-30 and like 72 with the ARP lube. So there u go.
Again it was fine on one head (drivers), even when It was retorqued there just wasn't any movement even at 85' lbs
Maybe I just wasn't as careful with cleaning the passenger head or I waited to long after I put the assembly lube on the bolts before I torqued them down. It makes me want to pull it off just to see. I can do it quick as heck now, but it's a mess with the cooland then retorquing the heads after warm up but on the plus side I could use the copper gasket stuff to help seal and I wouldn't be leaving anything to chance.
I'm going to pick up the copper gasket stuff now.
Last edited by dmiz0420; 06-02-2008 at 06:42 PM.
#11
Team Owner
ok, I'm with you.
I'll get the permatex copper
I modified my pcv system because of the center valve covers (that i have anyway) which do not have a hose barb on the passengerside that poiunts back toward the fire wall.
So I took the one from the drivers rear and ran it straight over to the TB. No PCV valve.
The one on the passenger side pointed toward the front went straight to the TB.
Do I need to install a pcv valve in the line up?
In all honesty it runs strong minus the smoke screen. Thanks
I'll get the permatex copper
I modified my pcv system because of the center valve covers (that i have anyway) which do not have a hose barb on the passengerside that poiunts back toward the fire wall.
So I took the one from the drivers rear and ran it straight over to the TB. No PCV valve.
The one on the passenger side pointed toward the front went straight to the TB.
Do I need to install a pcv valve in the line up?
In all honesty it runs strong minus the smoke screen. Thanks
#12
Le Mans Master
#13
Team Owner
See below.
To make sure I have this correct:
The line with the pcv in line from the back of the valve covers goes to the bottom input of the TB to get recirculated
This line goes to the inlet port on the side of the intake. unless different on a 97. Basically, this would be the suction side.
The top input on the tb goes into the passenger side input for fresh air intake into the valve cover to get circulated through the engine.
This sounds correct, under idle there should be no vacuum on this hose.
Please confirm.
theres no chance I can make this work properly w/o either a 04 or valley cover or center bolt valve covers that have a front and back input on the passenger side.
You may be OK with the single return, but the valley cover is another option although on the 97 I think you need to do some dremel work to make it fit.
I'm thinking about just drilling out and threading in (with the copper gasket goop) a brass fitting into the back of the passenger side valve cover in order to complete the system and then I could put the pcv back in line. Any objections?
If you don't have it connected correctly, try that first and see what happens before modifying the valve cover.
If going for the replacement valve covers or valley cover, which is the best way to procede on a 97? FWIW, I do not have the updated coolant crossover, I don't know if this is an issue, but I do know that it changed there in the evolution of the engine.
LS1howto shows the installation of the updated valley cover, you might want to check that out as well. I would first correct the intake bolts, make sure the PCV is connected correctly and then see what happens.
The line with the pcv in line from the back of the valve covers goes to the bottom input of the TB to get recirculated
This line goes to the inlet port on the side of the intake. unless different on a 97. Basically, this would be the suction side.
The top input on the tb goes into the passenger side input for fresh air intake into the valve cover to get circulated through the engine.
This sounds correct, under idle there should be no vacuum on this hose.
Please confirm.
theres no chance I can make this work properly w/o either a 04 or valley cover or center bolt valve covers that have a front and back input on the passenger side.
You may be OK with the single return, but the valley cover is another option although on the 97 I think you need to do some dremel work to make it fit.
I'm thinking about just drilling out and threading in (with the copper gasket goop) a brass fitting into the back of the passenger side valve cover in order to complete the system and then I could put the pcv back in line. Any objections?
If you don't have it connected correctly, try that first and see what happens before modifying the valve cover.
If going for the replacement valve covers or valley cover, which is the best way to procede on a 97? FWIW, I do not have the updated coolant crossover, I don't know if this is an issue, but I do know that it changed there in the evolution of the engine.
LS1howto shows the installation of the updated valley cover, you might want to check that out as well. I would first correct the intake bolts, make sure the PCV is connected correctly and then see what happens.
#15
Racer
Thread Starter
I sealed all the rocker arm studs and it is still burning oil
The PCV lines I had correct, just no valve in line from the return, so I will get one tonight on my way to the gym and I'll probably try to thread the nipple into the rear passenger's side valve cover to make sure the system's balanced and for all intensive purposes, just like it was originally.
Again, No oil at start up and warm up( even idle is nice), but once it warms up the idle starts to fluctuate, and it starts smoking and it stalls out.
I feel like it's inevitable I'm going to have to pull the heads again (5th time). I would really recommend using stock head gaskets and bolts to any one who is trying to make that decision.
The PCV lines I had correct, just no valve in line from the return, so I will get one tonight on my way to the gym and I'll probably try to thread the nipple into the rear passenger's side valve cover to make sure the system's balanced and for all intensive purposes, just like it was originally.
Again, No oil at start up and warm up( even idle is nice), but once it warms up the idle starts to fluctuate, and it starts smoking and it stalls out.
I feel like it's inevitable I'm going to have to pull the heads again (5th time). I would really recommend using stock head gaskets and bolts to any one who is trying to make that decision.
Last edited by NASAblue; 06-05-2008 at 05:38 PM.
#16
Team Owner
I am not sure at this point how the head gaskets could cause this, i.e., where the leak path would be. I would suspect a valve seal or possibly rings depending the miles on the motor.
Also, ARP revised their torque specifications on the studs last January, not sure about the bolts.
#17
Racer
Thread Starter
let me finish my experiment here before you sell them off. I went w/ the cometics for the quench but mainly so I wouldn't have to mill as much. The uncertianty and diffulculty of having the one side leak coolant after several re torquings leaves some doubt in my mind as to their seal.
I didn't get the pcv installed untill too late, my neighbors would $hit if I cranked that thing over right now and the throttle started fluctuating all over.
Part of me wants to do it anyway...
It sounds like some of the guys are having succes coating the gasket in the copper gasket stuff, but what a mess that would make
The valve seals still could be the issue as well. I havn't found anything indicating patriot valve seals have issues and I don't think my machine guy had any trouble. All still avenues I need to look at.
My gut still says head gasket seal, but i hope not.
I didn't get the pcv installed untill too late, my neighbors would $hit if I cranked that thing over right now and the throttle started fluctuating all over.
Part of me wants to do it anyway...
It sounds like some of the guys are having succes coating the gasket in the copper gasket stuff, but what a mess that would make
The valve seals still could be the issue as well. I havn't found anything indicating patriot valve seals have issues and I don't think my machine guy had any trouble. All still avenues I need to look at.
My gut still says head gasket seal, but i hope not.
Last edited by NASAblue; 06-05-2008 at 10:13 PM.
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
Looks like routing the pcv system adjustments of:
-Threading in a 1/8" brass pipe elbow to the passenger side valve cover to hook the return hose to the rear passenger side in addition to the driver's side.
-Adding new pcv valve in line
Has solved the smoking problems thus far.
Thanks for everyone's help!
-Threading in a 1/8" brass pipe elbow to the passenger side valve cover to hook the return hose to the rear passenger side in addition to the driver's side.
-Adding new pcv valve in line
Has solved the smoking problems thus far.
Thanks for everyone's help!
#20
Drifting
I used .040 cometics when I installed my ported heads a few weeks ago. I used brand new stock head bolts from GM and I didn't put any kind of sealant on the rocker bolts and I don't have any leaks anywhere and I haven't seen any smoke either. Surely those issues would have showed up on the dyno I would think?