Spectre

Excuse me for this rant but I'm sure all of you share my opinion maybe even if you don't know it yet :)
Alright I'm sittin in my "office" reading my latest autoweek , and what do i see gm's euro division has it's hands on the four liter indie engine originally developed for OLDSMOBILE ! The reengineered the thing to run on pump gas for OPEL! I read it and figured well it's probably some impratical supercar one off , IT"S not . It's so practical all the things it's built from are right outa the gm North America parts bin . It's even got a sequential transmission that they go as far to say it's better than a ferrari . They actually had to reduce the air intake in the car by 50% because it was too fast . This engine turns out 540 horse power with full intake and 417 ftlb of torque .
Alright so OPEl the euro econobox division of general motors gets a practical super car yet corvettes what do we get . These one off obviously unproduceable cars such as tigershark , and we all hope and pray for a better engine choice the next year :bs . I blam this completely on ron zarrella . He even admits he underestimated the importance of the product . This is the reason we haven't seen these drastic changes . Thank god for bob lutz .

All I am saying in this little rant of mine is corvette is supposed to be gm's flagship . Yet we get stepchild technology . Who doesn't think we should have a 4 liter 4 valves per cylinder v8 that put's out upwards of 500 horsepower up to it's 7250 rpm redline ? I wanna see action . I've put up with column lock , poor paint , sticking brakes , oil consumtion ,poor service, and a battery that goes dead so often it's like some crappy electronic toy . I want change . Everybody else gets to dig deep in the parts bin , but no not corvette i mean our cars only cost 50,000 dollars . I'm sure opels cost more than that NOT . The c6 better be all that and a bag of chips because i love my corvette but there needs to be a few changes . Also i think What I'm talking about is nowhere near unreasonable . Check out the november 26th autoweek page 20 .
Tell me what you think about what i just stated
:cheers:


[Modified by vic451, 8:03 AM 11/28/2001]

Spectre

ttt

WALLstAL

Are you O.K., vent. The U.S. public is not ready for that hp on a whole!

Z11409

You sound just like me and a 1000 other long term owners,I am afraid to park any of my Vettes next to a Ford/Honda/Toyota etc.because someone will come by and compare the paint quality.Why should Vette owners have to know more about TSB and warrenty work than the Chevy service dept.?

Spectre

No offense to you but i am so tired of hearing that , and i suppose we aren't ready for um good paint , batterys that work , steering wheels that turns brakes that don't stick and engine that are new and revolutionary :mad . I'm sorry but a vette with abs ,traction control , active handling , runflats , dynamic stability control , and electronic brake proportioning can handle 500 plus hp much better than a viper if we are talking about having a user friendly vehicle . All that not ready for it stuff is junk . If the c6 doesn't improve on the build quality and performance tremendously over the c5 I won't be a corvette owner again until the c7 . I have been a lover of vettes since the start but gm is giving us all the shaft . All they gotta do is open up the parts bin and step up quality control . I hope bob lutz reads the forum :cool:

MitchAlsup

vic451 wrote: I want change.

I write: You've got two choices: move to Europe, or quit buying GM.

yellow01

I am entirely with you. I feel like we are a captive audience and GM knows it. In the US, you can't get more HP for the dollar (excluding the cheap mustang and a few thousand dollar comments), and GM knows it, so, they give us what they need to. Why invest $$ into good paint etc. when the public is going to gobble up all the vettes because of the HP/$ ?

Something else I've always hated, is that GM has slowly doles out HP, they are doing it on the Z06 now. It is a marketing scheme. A few HP a year to keep buyers coming back for the 'New and Improved' Z06.

I always read about the engineering marvels behind wringing 405 hp out of the pushrod V8. Screw that. The technology is out there to have more HP & TQ out of less displacement. If they are so worried about fuel economy, screw the 7L with displacement on demand, and just fork over an engine with the latest technology. It would be smaller, lighter, 4L is more fuel efficient than 7L, and could make more power.

Sorry for adding to the rant, but I agree with you.


[Modified by yellow01, 9:49 AM 11/28/2001]

99HT

No 4 liter 500+ hp engine is going to be reliable enough for a production car. People expect an engine to last 100K+ miles. That engine will be lucky to last 20K miles if used to it's full potential.

There are so few high hp cars on the road now that they don't come up on the public's radar screen as a problem. I could envision thousands of the same make of car pushing 500+hp, being driven by idiots who can't even handle the 350 hp of the stock Vette without crashing. The majority of the public would demand banning of such cars and we would all be screwed.

It has happened many times before. Waverunners are banned in many places all over the country and have an government pressured 70 mph speed limit. All motorcycles have a "secret" 190 mph speed limit. All trucks and SUV's have a 100mph speed limit.

There is pressure to ban all high performance boats from operating everywhere but offshore. There will be a government imposed speed limit on boats eventually. In Florida where I live, there are no-wake and Manatee zones everywhere. It now takes so long to make it to the ocean that many people have gotten out of boating. This has destroyed power boating in many parts of the state. The Federal government is trying to force Florida to have a 25 mph speed limit EVERYWHERE in inland Florida waters. My boat does not even plane at 25 mph. The slowest it will go is 35 mph. Boating registration peaked in 1977 in Florida. It is a declining industry.

Spectre

Once again not to knock what you said ,but it's all bunk . How many horsepower per liter does an s2000 make(i believe it's actually higher if not the same as the gm 4 liter) . It's a double standard we all might slam ricers and say " japanese junk" , but where are the people who would criticize a "domestic" car maker for having a redline over 6000 rpm . By your theory apparently the roads should be littered with burnt out hondas :bs . Apparently hondas must be made by magical creatures from a far off land . I think not . It's called quality control . At 4 valves per cylinder the OLDSMOBILE slated 4 cylinder isn't straining . The bs has got to end somewhere . I see gm getting just like chrysler was when Iacocca went in (maybe not so extreme) . One hand doesn't know what the other is doing . Engineering doesn't work with design , marketing doesn't work with brands , and everybody has their own little piece of the pie . It's kinda like driving a car with only a little piece of the winshield portioned out to 6 different people . Not gonna work very good .Last but not least I will quote a statement from our outgoing gm president "I did think that a fundamental change in JUST the way you think about marketing would be enough to have an impact in the market " these exact words come from the man who obviously is not a car guy nor a very smart man. Fyi this same company in the face of the aztec hating has decided to majorly renovate the aztec design . Kinda like trying to bail out the titanic . Like I said we need lutz to the rescue . We need to take an example from holden and opel . Fire some of the do nothing gm execs and replace them with their euro and aussi conterparts. :smash:

Jim 47

vic451

I fully agree with you. The high demand of an expanding economy has a paralizing effect on the creativity of GM (and Ford and Chrysler) executives (except for a few like Lutz). Making noise like this might wake up a few of the sleeping brains out there in auto-land. Keep up the good work. :yesnod:

Gary2KC5

vic451,

Somewhere you must have missed Autoweek and the rest of the automotive press explaining to us how the C5 is such a "bargin" for $50k! :bs :bs :bs

Let Autoweek do a long term test on a C5 and see how they react to having god awful terrible dealer service, major engineering flaws, and horendous depreciation.

For all that's screwed up with GM and the C5 it's still a great performance vehicle but, yes you should get more quality for $50,000! :smash:

I don't mind that are correcting the oil consuption problems with new rings, but why did I have to have my car in to the dealer 4 times before they looked at what I told them was wrong! (1st time...me: there's no oil pressure @ start up from what I've read it's got a bad oil pump. Dealer said: we don't see a problem. 2nd time...car towed to dealer with rattling lifters. I said: bad oil pump, sticking OPRV. Dealer said: We think it needs a new engine but GM told us to put lifters in and give it back to you. 3rd time...I said: Everytime I leave here and everyday I have no oil pressure @ start up, the oil pump is bad. Dealer said: We pulled the oil pans and found burnt oil so we cleaned it up and here's the keys. 4th time...GM rep and Service Manger finally listened to me "explain" for 1.5 hours what was wrong and that now they had let the engine become damaged by not addressing the problem. Dealer/GM decides to look at the oil pump and also disassemble the engine to check out my concerns...but I have to pay for the labor if nothings wrong. Idoits!

Dealer calls back the next day to tell me they found the oil pump's OPRV stuck open with loctite and one of the main's was scratched. Dealer rebuilds motor.

My C5 has spent over 39 days/nights at the dealer this year and 4 or 5 other visits.

While dealer has car they just abuse it and don't even know they are doing anything wrong. They dragged my car from the bay with the engine/front suspension out with floor jacks and left it in a corner on wood 4x4's. They piled all the parts on the ground around it until some idiot bashed a tire into the exhaust and into my drivers door.

look how they let the ABS unit just dangle from the brake pipes:



No wonder I had a brake fluid leak when they were done (also electrical issues)

They broke the clutch slave cylinder and P/S resevour while it was there also.

Aaaahhh! :smash: :mad :mad :bs :reddevil Aaahhh! O.K. I think i'm better now.


[Modified by Gary2KC5, 11:34 AM 11/28/2001]

Spectre

Sorry , I'm not pickin on ya really :lol: , but i don't seem to remember my lowly 6 cylinder ml320 mercedes having a 100 mph reve limiter . Why In fact it went strongly to the limit of the tires 130mph . I felt much safer driving th ml at 130mph than i did drivin my z71 80 mph . Ever try an emergency lane change at eighty in most domestic trucks or suvs . Can we say disaster . The reason that trucks are limited to 100 mph is due to the fact most of them are engineered to be unsafe even at highway speeds . Autoweek recently fliped a jeep liberty taking their slaloms at 40 mph :bs . It all about being under engineered .Making a truck handle involves two things that domestic car companys don't like time and money . It's not their fault you flipped your truck or spun it out or blew out a tire(ford/ firestone) . You wanna take your average z71 beyond a hundred miles per hour , I hope your a crash test dummy :eek:


[Modified by vic451, 11:48 AM 11/28/2001]

Ryan Bell

Not being cynical.....but.......

You get what you pay for. There's reason GM can offer the level of performance of the Corvette at the price they charge (which is pretty awesome.....there's nothing in the same price range that can touch it). That comes at the expense of things that aren't overlooked by $80-$150k cars, such as excellent paint, perfect fit and finish, super nice interior, etc. I think the Vette is a bargain for the performance it gives. It's right up there with the big boys so to speak (esp. the Z06, and even the coupe too!), and it's something that's expensive, but not way out in left field expensive. That's what makes it so awesome!

And again, not being cynical, but if you "want it all" (being a DOHC V8 with upwards of 475hp, nicer interior, better paint, etc), you're just gonna have to pay for it. If you're expecting that "perfect Vette" for even $60k, keep dreamin.....it's not gonna happen.

69L79

It has always been about sales/profit. The C5 has been consistently averaging over 30,000+ units sold per year. More cars sold per year on average than any other generation of Vettes. What do you think that tells GM? I think the answer is obvious. I have owned C2, C3, C4 and C5. The C5 is by far the best in any category of comparison. I agree. The "public" really doesn't want 400+ road rockets. How many Vipers are sold a year? Does anyone think that Dodge would be able to sell 30,000+ Vipers per year. If they could they would be making/selling more of them. But, they can't and don't. The reality is that the C5 is a great car, it meets all my expectations, and it has more than enough power. A few months ago I won a Vette. I could have chosen a Z06. I didn't. I had no desire to go 0-60 in under 4 seconds. 4.5 seconds is good enough. No flames intended to anyone, only reality.

SAVE the WAVE!! :) :seeya :)

Spectre

Oh I forgot we automatically forgo quality when we buy a domestic car . Oh and yeah a good paint job costs too much . I guess i really don't deserve good fit and finish either . LET ME SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME, B.S! . Go look at a mercedes for the same price as a vette or how about that s2000 . It's just a load of crap that we shouldn't expect more from the vette . Here's a list off a mercedes costing the same as the vette and low an behold it has all this engine technology fit and finish good paint costs more to make than the vette but still cost 's 50k.
Fuel and ignition system ME 2.8 engine management. Integrated sequential multipoint fuel injection and phased twin-spark ignition includes individual cylinder control of fuel spray, spark timing and phase, and antiknock. Two high-energy ignition coils and two spark plugs per cylinder, with 100,000-mile spark plug intervals. Electronically controlled throttle.

Intake system Magnesium 2-stage resonance intake manifold increases the intake runner length at lower rpm for improved response.

Transmission Electronic 5-speed automatic with driver-adaptive control. Touch Shift allows driver to manually downshift and allow upshifts by nudging the shift lever to the left or right from the Drive position. Driver-selectable Winter mode starts vehicle moving in 2nd gear or a second Reverse gear to help improve takeoff on slippery surfaces. Display in instrument cluster indicates selected gear range.

. The general can do better Open your eyes we live in a global market economy before anyone else says eat your gruel you should be thankful i say look at holden look at opel look everywhere it can be better . We deserve more for our money .At the very least we deserve top shelf paint , a good battery , and properly addressed issues that don't make us have to look at tsb bulleteins every other week . Maybe even better service . Also maybe before you open you mouth . The 4 liter has already been developed and the production cost would actually be quite nominal in the scheme of things . Also one morething FYI the viper sells every one made each year.

QUIKAG

Gary,

Wow, you must be a dedicated Corvette fan to put up with all that crap. I would have gotten rid of that C5 at the first opportunity I had. My '01 C5 has treated me very, very well. I have 17.5k hard miles on it in less than a year and a half and the only problem I've had is that bad brake booster deal on some of the '01's and the subsequent rotor warpage. Huffines in Plano, which has a great service advisor, replaced the booster and resurfaced the rotors (which incidentally held up to two days of abuse at a road racing track). The car has been PERFECT otherwise.

All that said, my car, which I like a lot, starts giving me some crap, it's gone and I'm back to foreign makes. I desire nothing the domestics make at all, except for the C5, maybe a new Caddy, and GM trucks. That's it. GM has been lucky so far with my C5 being very well put together and I'm very happy with it and plan on buying a C6, but some of these shoddy quality stories kind of scare me. That is the reason I won't get a C6 until '06 or so. That will give them time to clean up the bugs.

Vic,
I agree with you that GM should bring over some parts bin Holden and Opel goodies, but if what they have over here is selling and they're making a good profit, why mess with success? I like my C5 and I like the low-end torque of the pushrod LS1 V8 and it's been very reliable for me and I'm sure it will continue to do so. I think the Oldmobile 4.0L V8 could be reliable at 500hp, like you said, the S2000 has 240hp out of 2.0L,that's 120hp/liter. What you're overlooking is the size of the S2k and the relative low torque output of the motor. You have to look downstream of the motor and realize that with a 500hp 4.0L V8 that runs over 7000rpm is going to put quite a bit of strain on the driveline, etc. Also, invariably it's going to cost more to produce. I'd rather have my $45k loaded C5 than a $60-65k 4.0L V8 C5/6, whatever. That said, the C6 had better has sequential shifting, have a high revving pushrod/DOHC motor and makes good hp with ceramic brakes, and HID. :D :cheers: :cheers:

C5Longhorn

I definitely want the HID also.

2thDr

The paint quality on my C5 is flawless.

Ryan Bell

Yeah, I'm sure it is in comparison with other domestic cars. Look at the quality of the paint (how thick the finish is, how resistant it is to scratching, how well it holds up, etc) on a BMW for instance (on ANY car in their line). There's absolutely no comparison.

Ryan Bell

But......

Look at what you get on the Vette that the Merc-Benz DOESN'T have....you can even that out. A 2.8L OHC engine vs. a pushrod 5.7L LS1.....LS1 is a better engine....period. Also, you get the style, design of the Vette, better wheels (arguably), a sturdier "sport" suspension, a good 6-spd gearbox, better tires, blah, blah, blah......for every perk the Merc has, the Vette's probably got one to counter it. Sure it's got better fit and finish, paint, etc....but it's still lacking performance (obviously), and that's where some of that extra money goes into the Vette ($ that wasn't spent on nicer paint, etc).

Anyway, regardless of whether you agree or not, the facts are that Chevy is probably not going to change because they have no reason to change it now. "But if we all start to complain, maybe they......blah, blah...". Too utopian for me. It's not gonna happen anytime soon. Reality pretty much assures that. Hence, if you're that mad about it, go buy an M3, a 911 Carrera, Ferrari, or something of that caliber. You'd probably be happier with it (not being rude....just giving honest advice). :D