Catch Can Oil: Experienced Guys Only !!!!!
12-10-2007, 04:24 PM
#21
Racer
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I want to give you guys my opinion on something. I had a cosli&^%* type can as my first catch can in my line of 2. It caught ALOT of oil quickly. I never did use the stone filter. I think the reason it caught som much oil was the size of the fitting openings, mainly the out going side. The larger the fitting & opening, the less extreme your suction will be & less of a tendancy to suck out the oil. Naturally you have to reduce the large fitting with a smaller one to fit your 3/8 fuel line, but that smaller area is now farther from the can & oil in it!! I had a AMW can mounted in the same spot & it hardly caught any oil at all. When I installed the other can, I started getting alot, not to mention the bowls on these cans are much shallower making it even easier to suck the oil out! I just replaced my coascilating can with an Elite can, due to I was worried the plastic bowl would deteriorate. I drilled out the out going inlet on the can to the same size fitting as on the coascilating can. I believe this will be much more efficient!! I will let you know!
I will tell you one other thing.......On the elite can, the piece on the inside of the can that unscrews & has the metal scraping material iside of it, is SO short! The bottom of this piece is SO close to the exiting outlet!! I cut the very edge of this piece off, where the little holes are, & I took an alumunum can and cut the bottom & top off & cut it down the middle into a flat piece, rolled it up & put it inside the other piece. I did put back the metal material. Now the oil HAS to go all the way down to the bottom of the can. I left about a half inch clearance from the bottom. The AMW is a little better in this area & the center piece goes down a little farther, but I did the same thing in IT! I need to post pics one of these days!
Rob
I will tell you one other thing.......On the elite can, the piece on the inside of the can that unscrews & has the metal scraping material iside of it, is SO short! The bottom of this piece is SO close to the exiting outlet!! I cut the very edge of this piece off, where the little holes are, & I took an alumunum can and cut the bottom & top off & cut it down the middle into a flat piece, rolled it up & put it inside the other piece. I did put back the metal material. Now the oil HAS to go all the way down to the bottom of the can. I left about a half inch clearance from the bottom. The AMW is a little better in this area & the center piece goes down a little farther, but I did the same thing in IT! I need to post pics one of these days!
Rob
Last edited by allmee; 12-10-2007 at 05:07 PM.
12-10-2007, 06:59 PM
#22
Le Mans Master
I will tell you one other thing.......On the elite can, the piece on the inside of the can that unscrews & has the metal scraping material iside of it, is SO short! The bottom of this piece is SO close to the exiting outlet!! I cut the very edge of this piece off, where the little holes are, & I took an alumunum can and cut the bottom & top off & cut it down the middle into a flat piece, rolled it up & put it inside the other piece. I did put back the metal material. Now the oil HAS to go all the way down to the bottom of the can. I left about a half inch clearance from the bottom.
12-10-2007, 07:09 PM
#23
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Yeah, I know. That was my initial reaction too. But, like I say, this is a new engine with maybe 1700-1800 miles on it combined with the fact that I re-checked the can after very few (maybe 100 or so?) local miles after finding the gumbo.
I'm thinking (hoping) that that initial emulsified crap was more a function of various engine assembly lubes, dino break-in oil used during initial breakin and then changed to synthetic, just prior to my drive back to Houston from Phoenix.
I'm thinking (hoping) that that initial emulsified crap was more a function of various engine assembly lubes, dino break-in oil used during initial breakin and then changed to synthetic, just prior to my drive back to Houston from Phoenix.
DH
12-10-2007, 07:13 PM
#25
Team Owner
I think it is condensation as well. The cooler temps will result in more condensation that you normally wouldn't see as it would simply be burnt, but since you are in effect collecting it so it won't be burnt your collection size has increased. I see this with our BMW that appears to have a very poor PCV system every winter. The residue build-up in the colder months on the bottom of the oil cap and other places is markedly increased but will disappear in the summer when temps go back up. If it is a real cold winter, all my cars will show this. It's more of an oil soup. Its one reason why I am concerned about running a cooler thermostat in the Vette.
PS: Did you say 50's is considered cold
PS: Did you say 50's is considered cold
Last edited by vettenuts; 12-11-2007 at 05:34 AM.
12-10-2007, 07:14 PM
#26
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie,
I'm currently running an experiment, whereby a Watts particulate filter (with extended can) precedes the Watts Coalescing filter. Although the coalescing filter catches plenty of oil, frequently low vacuum pressure and air flow allow a very small amount of oil to get by. (obviously, you have seen this to a greater extent with your AMW can). Even though I installed this combo just a few weeks ago, I rarely add more than 100 miles per week to the odometer, so there may not be alot of oil in the extended can, yet. I will be checking it during Christmas break, at the latest, however.
Another experiment I will be conducting is data logging of PCV line air temperature. I just bought a temperature probe to hook up to my HOBO data logger. The probe will be teed into the PCV line (near the PCV, which is close to the hottest area in the engine bay) and the logger will be taped near the Watts filters. This way, I'll be able to log temps from the PCV area and at the Watts filters, simultaneously.
I'll post the results when they are available.
Dave
I'm currently running an experiment, whereby a Watts particulate filter (with extended can) precedes the Watts Coalescing filter. Although the coalescing filter catches plenty of oil, frequently low vacuum pressure and air flow allow a very small amount of oil to get by. (obviously, you have seen this to a greater extent with your AMW can). Even though I installed this combo just a few weeks ago, I rarely add more than 100 miles per week to the odometer, so there may not be alot of oil in the extended can, yet. I will be checking it during Christmas break, at the latest, however.
Another experiment I will be conducting is data logging of PCV line air temperature. I just bought a temperature probe to hook up to my HOBO data logger. The probe will be teed into the PCV line (near the PCV, which is close to the hottest area in the engine bay) and the logger will be taped near the Watts filters. This way, I'll be able to log temps from the PCV area and at the Watts filters, simultaneously.
I'll post the results when they are available.
Dave
Dave
Is the Wattts particulate filter the same one I got for my fresh air line. I don't remember the part number but it is made of that stone like material and is in the same shape (cylindrical) as the coalescing. If it is that one did you go out and get some rubber o-rings for it to seal at both ends........I DID!!!!!!!
Please shoot me an email of your future experimentation and data aquisition incase I miss the post....
DH
12-10-2007, 07:21 PM
#27
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I want to give you guys my opinion on something. I had a cosli&^%* type can as my first catch can in my line of 2. It caught ALOT of oil quickly. I never did use the stone filter. I think the reason it caught som much oil was the size of the fitting openings, mainly the out going side. The larger the fitting & opening, the less extreme your suction will be & less of a tendancy to suck out the oil. Naturally you have to reduce the large fitting with a smaller one to fit your 3/8 fuel line, but that smaller area is now farther from the can & oil in it!! I had a AMW can mounted in the same spot & it hardly caught any oil at all. When I installed the other can, I started getting alot, not to mention the bowls on these cans are much shallower making it even easier to suck the oil out! I just replaced my coascilating can with an Elite can, due to I was worried the plastic bowl would deteriorate. I drilled out the out going inlet on the can to the same size fitting as on the coascilating can. I believe this will be much more efficient!! I will let you know!
I will tell you one other thing.......On the elite can, the piece on the inside of the can that unscrews & has the metal scraping material iside of it, is SO short! The bottom of this piece is SO close to the exiting outlet!! I cut the very edge of this piece off, where the little holes are, & I took an alumunum can and cut the bottom & top off & cut it down the middle into a flat piece, rolled it up & put it inside the other piece. I did put back the metal material. Now the oil HAS to go all the way down to the bottom of the can. I left about a half inch clearance from the bottom. The AMW is a little better in this area & the center piece goes down a little farther, but I did the same thing in IT! I need to post pics one of these days!
Rob
I will tell you one other thing.......On the elite can, the piece on the inside of the can that unscrews & has the metal scraping material iside of it, is SO short! The bottom of this piece is SO close to the exiting outlet!! I cut the very edge of this piece off, where the little holes are, & I took an alumunum can and cut the bottom & top off & cut it down the middle into a flat piece, rolled it up & put it inside the other piece. I did put back the metal material. Now the oil HAS to go all the way down to the bottom of the can. I left about a half inch clearance from the bottom. The AMW is a little better in this area & the center piece goes down a little farther, but I did the same thing in IT! I need to post pics one of these days!
Rob
Rob
As you know ...... I have both the AMW and Elite. They both are similar in design and function. The Elite volume seems bigger. But it should have a petcock on the bottom for drainage. Your customization can only help in my opinion.
Keep us up todate on any info you discover...
DH
12-10-2007, 07:36 PM
#28
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Sep 2004
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Dave
I hope your right and that my new engine is coming apart inside
Its amazing how much the Watts/Coalescing catches that passes by the AMW But if I didn't have the AMW I would have over filled that custom can this last time !!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you checked yours with the recent weather cooling ???????
DH
I hope your right and that my new engine is coming apart inside
Its amazing how much the Watts/Coalescing catches that passes by the AMW
But if I didn't have the AMW I would have over filled that custom can this last time !!!!!!!!!!!!Have you checked yours with the recent weather cooling ???????
DH
If the pan oil looked normal then I would suspect the "cold weather" theory!
Heck, we have snow in the foothills here in San Diego, I`m sure it`s the same in your area.
12-10-2007, 07:52 PM
#29
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I don't think this will buy you any more performance out of the Elite catch can as the condensed oil in the piece with the metal mesh will drip out the holes in the end of the can and lay in the bottom of the catch can. There is now way for the outlet hole in the side of the can to suck any liquid oil as it's designed. If you extend that condensing can assy to near the bottom of the can, then you have cut down the amount of oil the catch can will trap before the path of the vapor flow is "under oil" and that could essentially block the flow of vapors completely. That would not be a good thing.
I also know can temp. is important. I mean keeping the can cooler will help retain the oil in the can. I think it is a mistake, although it looks great, mounting the can to the cyl head! That will keep the can absolutely red hot!! I know Howie, like myself, has one can mounted betweenthe hood hindge & radiator cover. This is a way to keep the can cooler. There really is'nt many places to mount these things anyway, let alone trying to find a cooler place. Maybe down in the air intake, in front of the rad.??
We all know that cooler oil is thicker oil! Anyway I have rambled on enough! Thanks for listening though!Rob
Last edited by allmee; 12-10-2007 at 07:58 PM.
12-10-2007, 11:07 PM
#30
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Pan oil always looks like BLACK oil.
Catch can oil looks like brown soup.....
DH
12-10-2007, 11:13 PM
#31
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I think it is condensation as well. The cooler temps will result in more condensation that you normally wouldn't see as it would simply be burnt, but since you are in effect collecting it so it won't be burnt your collection size has increased. I see this with our BMW that appears to have a very poor PCV system every winter. The residue build-up in the colder months on the bottom of the oil cap and other places is markedly increased but will disappear in the summer when temps go back up. If it is a real cold winter, all my cars will show this. It's more of an oil soup. Its one reason why I am concerned about running a cooler thermostat in the Vette.
PS: Did you read 50's is considered cold
PS: Did you read 50's is considered cold
I'm going to the track in two days ....... the HIGH will be 55*
DH
12-10-2007, 11:20 PM
#32
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I have a flap of aluminum cut at the bottom and folded up to avoid that type of problem, although I check my cans way too often to get near that. I know how much oil they catch in a given time/mileage frame.
I also know can temp. is important. I mean keeping the can cooler will help retain the oil in the can. I think it is a mistake, although it looks great, mounting the can to the cyl head! That will keep the can absolutely red hot!! I know Howie, like myself, has one can mounted betweenthe hood hindge & radiator cover. This is a way to keep the can cooler. There really is'nt many places to mount these things anyway, let alone trying to find a cooler place. Maybe down in the air intake, in front of the rad.?? We all know that cooler oil is thicker oil! Anyway I have rambled on enough! Thanks for listening though!
Rob
I also know can temp. is important. I mean keeping the can cooler will help retain the oil in the can. I think it is a mistake, although it looks great, mounting the can to the cyl head! That will keep the can absolutely red hot!! I know Howie, like myself, has one can mounted betweenthe hood hindge & radiator cover. This is a way to keep the can cooler. There really is'nt many places to mount these things anyway, let alone trying to find a cooler place. Maybe down in the air intake, in front of the rad.??
We all know that cooler oil is thicker oil! Anyway I have rambled on enough! Thanks for listening though!Rob
DH
12-10-2007, 11:27 PM
#33
Race Director
Dave
Is the Wattts particulate filter the same one I got for my fresh air line. I don't remember the part number but it is made of that stone like material and is in the same shape (cylindrical) as the coalescing. If it is that one did you go out and get some rubber o-rings for it to seal at both ends........I DID!!!!!!!
Please shoot me an email of your future experimentation and data aquisition incase I miss the post....
DH
Is the Wattts particulate filter the same one I got for my fresh air line. I don't remember the part number but it is made of that stone like material and is in the same shape (cylindrical) as the coalescing. If it is that one did you go out and get some rubber o-rings for it to seal at both ends........I DID!!!!!!!
Please shoot me an email of your future experimentation and data aquisition incase I miss the post....
DH
I don't think you bought that type from me, just the coalescing type, which is actually the BEST way to trap airborn oil. This filter by itself does an excellent job, but I'm trying to trap that last milligram by trying a dual filter approach, the first one to catch liquids and the coalescing to catch anything left over. We'll see and yes, I will let you know. BTW, I use only one gasket per filter assembly.
Dave
12-11-2007, 12:28 AM
#34
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie,
I don't think you bought that type from me, just the coalescing type, which is actually the BEST way to trap airborn oil. This filter by itself does an excellent job, but I'm trying to trap that last milligram by trying a dual filter approach, the first one to catch liquids and the coalescing to catch anything left over. We'll see and yes, I will let you know. BTW, I use only one gasket per filter assembly.
Dave
I don't think you bought that type from me, just the coalescing type, which is actually the BEST way to trap airborn oil. This filter by itself does an excellent job, but I'm trying to trap that last milligram by trying a dual filter approach, the first one to catch liquids and the coalescing to catch anything left over. We'll see and yes, I will let you know. BTW, I use only one gasket per filter assembly.
Dave
I bought the stone type one from the same place (Wilkerson ??) that you got the coalescing from. The tech guy there recommended it over the coalescing(go figure) based on what (I TOLD) him.
Anyways, is your first filter (the particulate) one of these stone types or not. And why if it is not rubberized on both ends like the coalsecing would you not have put o-rings on both ends like I did???
If you want I will take some pics for you next weekend. Got no time between now and the track wednesday morning!!!!
DH
12-11-2007, 03:39 PM
#35
Race Director
Howie,
It may be the same type, although there should be no reason to have to add any additional seals. I didn't and there are no leaks that I can detect. The particulate filter is a "course" filter that is designed to trap liquids and particulates, but NOT aerosols (airborn oil). Granted, there is a greater chance that liquid oil is more prevalent under racing conditions and high-rpm street use, but a particulate filter should not be used by itself unless it's not a problem to have a buildup of oil and water, downstream.
Dave
It may be the same type, although there should be no reason to have to add any additional seals. I didn't and there are no leaks that I can detect. The particulate filter is a "course" filter that is designed to trap liquids and particulates, but NOT aerosols (airborn oil). Granted, there is a greater chance that liquid oil is more prevalent under racing conditions and high-rpm street use, but a particulate filter should not be used by itself unless it's not a problem to have a buildup of oil and water, downstream.
Dave
12-11-2007, 07:01 PM
#36
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie,
It may be the same type, although there should be no reason to have to add any additional seals. I didn't and there are no leaks that I can detect. The particulate filter is a "course" filter that is designed to trap liquids and particulates, but NOT aerosols (airborn oil). Granted, there is a greater chance that liquid oil is more prevalent under racing conditions and high-rpm street use, but a particulate filter should not be used by itself unless it's not a problem to have a buildup of oil and water, downstream.
Dave
It may be the same type, although there should be no reason to have to add any additional seals. I didn't and there are no leaks that I can detect. The particulate filter is a "course" filter that is designed to trap liquids and particulates, but NOT aerosols (airborn oil). Granted, there is a greater chance that liquid oil is more prevalent under racing conditions and high-rpm street use, but a particulate filter should not be used by itself unless it's not a problem to have a buildup of oil and water, downstream.
Dave
Show me a picture or a link to the filter eliment you are referring to. Might not me the same as mine. The one I have is hard stonlike and solid. So there is no rubber ends like the coalescing....therefore I put o-rings on both ends.
DH
12-11-2007, 10:36 PM
#37
Race Director
Howie,
Go here
http://www.wattsfluidair.com/catalogs/0714W-2.pdf
and scroll down to page 6. The filter is an F504. This is the one I am experimenting with, with it being plumbed in in front of the coalescing filter. You'll notice that its flow capacity is much higher than what our cars can produce in the PCV line (or equivalent). As a general rule of thumb, the higher the flow rating, the less dense the filter element. This filter will let oil get by but it is still more dense than the filters in typical catch cans, that's for sure.
Further down, you will see the F501, which is the coalescing filter. Its capacity is 8 cfm - much closer to the 1.3 CFM that I measured in my LS1's PCV line.
Dave
Go here
http://www.wattsfluidair.com/catalogs/0714W-2.pdf
and scroll down to page 6. The filter is an F504. This is the one I am experimenting with, with it being plumbed in in front of the coalescing filter. You'll notice that its flow capacity is much higher than what our cars can produce in the PCV line (or equivalent). As a general rule of thumb, the higher the flow rating, the less dense the filter element. This filter will let oil get by but it is still more dense than the filters in typical catch cans, that's for sure.
Further down, you will see the F501, which is the coalescing filter. Its capacity is 8 cfm - much closer to the 1.3 CFM that I measured in my LS1's PCV line.
Dave
Last edited by Dave68; 12-11-2007 at 10:39 PM.
12-12-2007, 12:34 AM
#38
Le Mans Master
It's hard to say how much more oil would be trapped if the can ran cooler ... maybe slightly more. You would have to do a controlled experiment to determine if it's a valid issue.
One advantage of mounting on the head is it cuts down on the flow restriction of the system. If the lines are too long and/or too small then it will add more restriction to the PCV system, which will hurt its performance some.
Last edited by ZeeOSix; 12-12-2007 at 12:36 AM.
12-12-2007, 12:57 AM
#39
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie,
Go here
http://www.wattsfluidair.com/catalogs/0714W-2.pdf
and scroll down to page 6. The filter is an F504. This is the one I am experimenting with, with it being plumbed in in front of the coalescing filter. You'll notice that its flow capacity is much higher than what our cars can produce in the PCV line (or equivalent). As a general rule of thumb, the higher the flow rating, the less dense the filter element. This filter will let oil get by but it is still more dense than the filters in typical catch cans, that's for sure.
Further down, you will see the F501, which is the coalescing filter. Its capacity is 8 cfm - much closer to the 1.3 CFM that I measured in my LS1's PCV line.
Dave
Go here
http://www.wattsfluidair.com/catalogs/0714W-2.pdf
and scroll down to page 6. The filter is an F504. This is the one I am experimenting with, with it being plumbed in in front of the coalescing filter. You'll notice that its flow capacity is much higher than what our cars can produce in the PCV line (or equivalent). As a general rule of thumb, the higher the flow rating, the less dense the filter element. This filter will let oil get by but it is still more dense than the filters in typical catch cans, that's for sure.
Further down, you will see the F501, which is the coalescing filter. Its capacity is 8 cfm - much closer to the 1.3 CFM that I measured in my LS1's PCV line.
Dave
The picture of the F504 shows the exact filter eliment that I got to put in place of the coalexcing eliment in the Watts filters I got from you.
It is a solid white hard stone like material with no gaskets or plastic end fittings. Thats why I put the rubber o-rings on the ends so it would seal in the filter assembly. Any ways mine is black now from oil absorbed. Even black, if I place it in my hand so one end is sealed in my palm and place my lips over the other end I can tell that it flows easily. My concern has been (and I am watching) is that this hard material could breakdown and crumble, letting little pieces of debri get into the system.......
DH
12-12-2007, 01:02 AM
#40
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Yes, the catch can does get pretty hot mounted to the cylinder head ... but it is far from hot enough to vaporize the oil trapped inside it. That would take much higher temperatures. Once the oil has condensed inside the catch can it stays there. If there is condensed water trapped in the catch can, it could evaporate with time if the can runs hot.
It's hard to say how much more oil would be trapped if the can ran cooler ... maybe slightly more. You would have to do a controlled experiment to determine if it's a valid issue.
One advantage of mounting on the head is it cuts down on the flow restriction of the system. If the lines are too long and/or too small then it will add more restriction to the PCV system, which will hurt its performance some.
It's hard to say how much more oil would be trapped if the can ran cooler ... maybe slightly more. You would have to do a controlled experiment to determine if it's a valid issue.
One advantage of mounting on the head is it cuts down on the flow restriction of the system. If the lines are too long and/or too small then it will add more restriction to the PCV system, which will hurt its performance some.
DH